GSLV Mark II

[pmaitra]

I think they are not declaring the date because they remember what happened last time - fuel leak.

 

[tramp]

I think it might be delayed just a bit, the chief said End of Dec in one interview



Mars Orbiter tests have shown our ability to predict: ISRO chairman - The Hindu

Might have just said it just to be on the safer side, anyway, we will know the exact date after the mission readiness meeting later today.

It's better to hold back the flight test unless every single component is made fault free.... Murphy's law keeps coming to mind every time I think of GSLV Mk2.... "Anything that can wrong, will go wrong."

There is so much riding on this launch not just for ISRO, but for the entire country.

 

[happy]

Sincerely pray and hope that ISRO gets it right with GSLV in the coming launch. It is vital in fact for ISRO itself to get it right.

 

[tramp]

So, no GSLV Mk2 in 2013?
No wonder no date yet!!

Chennai: ISRO on Tuesday announced that the launch of Geosynchronous Satellite Launch Vehicle GSLV D5, which was called off at the 11th hour on 19 August due to a fuel leak in its second stage, is likely in the first week of January next year.
"After carrying out all preparatory works, the launch of GSLV D5 is likely by the first week of January next year. The exact date and time is yet to be fixed," ISRO sources told PTI.

ISRO likely to launch GSLV D5 early next month - Livemint

 

[Free Karma]

Ah well, I was hoping they'd do it this year, but when it happens hope all goes well!

Lets hope they can start the new year off with a.....okay no,
Lets hope they get off to a great start next year!

 

[anoop_mig25]

I think they are is major techanical issues with GSLV that is why they are delaying always

 

[roma]

Re: ISRO to launch GSLV-D5 in July

Could Isro not have waited for the GSLV to fly the mission since this would take the orbiter closer to Mars?

if they get gslv liftoff and total function on 15 dec ad thereafter - i mean total
- then the mars mission is an added extra
if not - they have got their priorities wrong - and have allowed themselves to be distracted
another possibility is what anoop_mig25 has posted above, that there are major probs
thereby implying that the mars mission is a deliberate distraction to keep morale high
while the probs of gslv are being sorted out
this could also be a good strategy - and i am not against it

more positively we could also suggest , they have fixed the previous problem with gslv
and had time on their hands so , decided to go for mars as well !!

~the mars mission is the icing on the cake
the cake is the gslv - as it has multiple roles to play and is a foundational building block
what good is the icing without the cake ?

on the other hand how tasty the cake is gonna be with the icing on it !!
i know we will get it right sooner or later
and i hope it will be this coming dec 15th 2013 !!
May Almighty God Bless all the Christians in isro ,
i truly honestly hope you succeed - at least in the gslv, if not both !!

 

[pmaitra]

Re: ISRO to launch GSLV-D5 in July

more positively we could also suggest , they have fixed the previous problem with gslv
and had time on their hands so , decided to go for mars as well !!

I wouldn't be so optimistic. No one really knows that all the problems are fixed until this GSLV lifts a heavy satellite to GTO, i.e. it performs as per its stated design parameters and capabilities.

 

[happy]

Re: ISRO to launch GSLV-D5 in July

more positively we could also suggest , they have fixed the previous problem with gslv
and had time on their hands so , decided to go for mars as well !!

~the mars mission is the icing on the cake
the cake is the gslv - as it has multiple roles to play and is a foundational building block
what good is the icing without the cake ?

on the other hand how tasty the cake is gonna be with the icing on it !!
i know we will get it right sooner or later
and i hope it will be this coming dec 15th 2013 !!

Well, for me, the cake is MOM and the icing is GSLV. Because, MOM is a more complicated mission, which has to be performed remotely with considerable delay in sending and receiving signals, whereas, GSLV is all technology perfected in hand.

If we can get MOM right in the first attempt, I don't mind even if GSLV is delayed further. Because, it is just a matter of time before we can get it perfect. But to execute another MOM, we will have to wait atleast 2 years for the launch window, if I am right.

 

[tramp]

Re: ISRO to launch GSLV-D5 in July

Apart from the distance and heliocentric part of the operation, ISRO had validated most of the other navigational issues with Chandrayaan-1. Therefore Mangalyaan may perhaps be safely thought as an extension of Chandrayaan-1. In fact that is why they could get off the block so fast ... in record time.. about 15 months.

GSLV Mk2 is about mastering a different technology altogether indigenously. And yes GSLV Mk2 is multifuntional and very vital to elevate India to the next level of its spacefaring saga.

If one keeps out the bragging value per se, I would think roma is right in calling GSLV Mk2 the cake and Mangalyaan the icing. And let us not forget, we have GSLV Mk3 mega launch ahead and we need all the confidence we can get from GSLV Mk2 success.

Well, for me, the cake is MOM and the icing is GSLV. Because, MOM is a more complicated mission, which has to be performed remotely with considerable delay in sending and receiving signals, whereas, GSLV is all technology perfected in hand.

If we can get MOM right in the first attempt, I don't mind even if GSLV is delayed further. Because, it is just a matter of time before we can get it perfect. But to execute another MOM, we will have to wait atleast 2 years for the launch window, if I am right.

 

[happy]

Re: ISRO to launch GSLV-D5 in July

Apart from the distance and heliocentric part of the operation, ISRO had validated most of the other navigational issues with Chandrayaan-1. Therefore Mangalyaan may perhaps be safely thought as an extension of Chandrayaan-1. In fact that is why they could get off the block so fast ... in record time.. about 15 months.

GSLV Mk2 is about mastering a different technology altogether indigenously. And yes GSLV Mk2 is multifuntional and very vital to elevate India to the next level of its spacefaring saga.

If one keeps out the bragging value per se, I would think roma is right in calling GSLV Mk2 the cake and Mangalyaan the icing. And let us not forget, we have GSLV Mk3 mega launch ahead and we need all the confidence we can get from GSLV Mk2 success.

If I remember correctly, Chandrayaan and Mangalyaan are on different levels altogether.

As Kishore032 pointed out at http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/science-technology/35020-indian-mission-mars-25.html, there is no such thing as Oberth effect which was relied upon during Chandrayaan-1. It was a more direct mission.

So, I believe MOM involves more complex calculations and therefore it is the Cake.

Please correct me, if I am wrong.

 

[tramp]

Re: ISRO to launch GSLV-D5 in July

I am primarily looking at the turn around time ... 15-18 months since first announcement!! And that would not have been possible unless we had all the basics ready.

But we have been struggling with the cryogenic engine for decades..... isn't that indicative enough? And the impact successful cryo will have on India's future missions will be seminal.

And isn't this cryogenic tech that the US and to some extent Russia does not want us to have as our own!! And that will not be for no reason at all!

If I remember correctly, Chandrayaan and Mangalyaan are on different levels altogether.

As Kishore032 pointed out at http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/science-technology/35020-indian-mission-mars-25.html, there is no such thing as Oberth effect which was relied upon during Chandrayaan-1. It was a more direct mission.

So, I believe MOM involves more complex calculations and therefore it is the Cake.

Please correct me, if I am wrong.

 

[happy]

Re: ISRO to launch GSLV-D5 in July

I am primarily looking at the turn around time ... 15-18 months since first announcement!! And that would not have been possible unless we had all the basics ready.

But we have been struggling with the cryogenic engine for decades..... isn't that indicative enough? And the impact successful cryo will have on India's future missions will be seminal.

And isn't this cryogenic tech that the US and to some extent Russia does not want us to have as our own!! And that will not be for no reason at all!

Well, theoretically as well as practically, MOM is completely different from Chandrayaan-1. If you say basics, I believe the basics were ready when we were successfully launching satellites into Geo-Sync orbit itself.

Cryo tech can be perfected and considering the amount of research already done, it is just a matter of few more months. Hence, my previous comment, quoted below.

If we can get MOM right in the first attempt, I don't mind even if GSLV is delayed further. Because, it is just a matter of time before we can get it perfect. But to execute another MOM, we will have to wait atleast 2 years for the launch window, if I am right.
happy ↑

 

[CrYsIs]

Re: ISRO to launch GSLV-D5 in July

Well, for me, the cake is MOM and the icing is GSLV. Because, MOM is a more complicated mission, which has to be performed remotely with considerable delay in sending and receiving signals, whereas, GSLV is all technology perfected in hand.

If we can get MOM right in the first attempt, I don't mind even if GSLV is delayed further. Because, it is just a matter of time before we can get it perfect. But to execute another MOM, we will have to wait atleast 2 years for the launch window, if I am right.

Actually sir, GSLV is more critical than MOM. Without GSLV there won't be any future MOM's.

We have lost close to a decade and millions of dollar worth of contracts because of this cryogenic failure.There shouldn't be any delay in it.

I think ISRO should not only fast track the GSLV & GSLV 3 program but also Semi cryogenic,RLV and ULV programs.

 

[Free Karma]

The GSLV is extremely important here is why:

With our current proven (proven is defined by ISRO as having completed 2 successful missions) technology, it is possible to only send 1400kg payload to GTO, and to LEO it goes to around two tonnes. This really limits the kind of satellites and missions that we do, this is also the reason why we had to do the mars mission through orbit raisings, and also had to drop one of the instruments on the payload,so that it would fit on the rocket.

Due to above limitations, any satellite that heavier than what the pslv can carry, we use an external launcher to do it, like ESA's Arianes which will be launching the GSAT-15,GSAT-11, INSAT-3d and so on, and have launched other satellites in the past. These satellites weigh around 3000-4000 Kgs, Now I'm not sure about how much ESA charges, but the numbers from Spacex (another private commercial satellite launch company) charges about $4,109 per kilogram, and thats about roughly 76.5 crores for one satellite that weighs 3000 kilos! Plus it's going to be uneasy when we want to launch military satellites, cause we'd rather keep that job to our own launchers.

In addition to keeping the money within the country, with the GSLV launcher ,the agency can then earn more money from the launching other satellites like what ESA is doing now for us.

Wthout the GSLV we can never really hope to do more challenging missions, like a sample return, landing a moon rover, supporting life systems for human space flight, launching components to build a space station. The future depends on GSLV, otherwise we will be stuck with sending probes that go around planets close to us and nothing more.


**Not sure about this last one: I think liquid fuels have better thrust and performance hence this tech could help in creating missiles of larger ranges (12k kms+) (such as the surya missile). The minuteman missile is solid fueled and can reach ranges upto 13000, but all missiles above that range seem to be liquid propelled.

So moving on...

Icing- Something that is put on top as decorative, looks pretty, tastes all sugary, but doesnt really have too much apart from that, isnt really as filling.

Cake: forms most of the groundwork, forms the basis on which everything else stands on, is the substance, and hence is more filling.

The mars mission is the cherry on top of the PSLV cake, the icings are the satelites and the chandrayaan, but we cant build more on this. cake, as it cant take more!

For newer bigger and better cakes multilayered cake, we need a good solid base, the GSLV cake! On top of this we can do things like moon rover, mars rover, heavy satellites, launching 30 satellites at once, moon landing, space station, deep space exploration like Jupiter and its moons,neptune etc.

TLDR: Here are two cakes, gslv sets the scene for a newer bigger cake, hence it's more important, yes it's been a rather jobless hour at work

Spoiler

PSLV cake

GSLV cake

 

[happy]

Re: ISRO to launch GSLV-D5 in July

Actually sir, GSLV is more critical than MOM. Without GSLV there won't be any future MOM's.

We have lost close to a decade and millions of dollar worth of contracts because of this cryogenic failure.There shouldn't be any delay in it.

I think ISRO should not only fast track the GSLV & GSLV 3 program but also Semi cryogenic,RLV and ULV programs.

Well, to be honest, I am not an expert in space missions. So all my comments in the last few posts are based from what I heard and read. If you are an expert in Space tech, I would not want to argue with you.

I agree that GSLV will be the back bone for future Mars Missions, on the condition that the present MOM is successfully injected into Martian Orbit.

Cryogenic tech is sure turning out to be a black spot on ISRO's track record . Hope they perfect it this time.

 

[happy]

The GSLV is extremely important here is why:

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.
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What can I say ??? :thumb:

 

[happy]

How India's cryogenic programme was wrecked

India was all set to master Russian cryogenic rocket technology when the United States – in cahoots with its moles in the Indian Intelligence Bureau – set in motion a series of events that implicated India's leading space scientists on cooked-up charges.

To understand the extent of damage caused to India's space programme because of the ISRO spy case, one has to first look at how close India was to mastering cryogenic rocket technology.

Cryogenic rocket technology involves the use of super-cooled liquid fuels to produce massive amounts of thrust in order to lift heavy payloads into space. It will be at the heart of India's GSLV rocket, which will carry future Indian astronauts to the moon. Without a reliable GSLV India will continue to pay heavy launch fees to foreign space agencies. Because it takes several hours to fuel up a cryogenic rocket, such a rocket cannot be used as a ballistic missile.

This leads to two questions. One, if the United States is really concerned about India developing long-range ballistic missiles, then shouldn't it try and stop the guys at the Defence Research & Development Organisation, which makes the Agni missiles? Secondly, why would the United States want to delay the development of India's heavy lift commercial rockets?

It doesn't require a rocket scientist to figure that out. India is the only developing country with heavy lift ambitions and its ultra-low cost model could one day put the likes of NASA out of business. That's an eventuality that the United States wants to delay for as long as it can.

Birth of a rocket

Author and broadcaster Brian Harvey writes in his exhaustively researched book 'Russia in Space: The Failed Frontier' that in the late 1980s India was looking to develop a massive rocket to launch satellites into 24-hour orbit. India first talked to Japan but nothing came off it. Hearing of these overtures, the Indians were approached first by General Dynamics Corporation, which offered an American engine. But the cost was prohibitive as was an offer shortly thereafter from Europe's Arianespace.

"Just then a third approach came, this time from the Soviet Union, offering two engines and technology transfer for the more reasonable price of $200 million," writes Harvey.

The Russians were offering a secret engine, the RD-56 or KVD-1, built by the Isayev Design Bureau. The KVD-1 had unsurpassed thrust and capabilities and NASA had nothing that could match the Russian engine for years. In fact, the rocket engine was originally developed as part of the Soviet manned moon landing programme as far back as 1964.

Over to Moscow

On January 18, 1991 the Indian Space Research Organisation (ISRO) inked an agreement with the Russian space agency Glavkosmos for the transfer of cryogenic technology. Following the collapse of its Soviet empire, Russia was under considerable American influence. In this backdrop, both Glavkosmos and ISRO anticipated the United States would try and stymie the deal.

So Glavkosmos and ISRO drew up Plan B – outsource the manufacture of the cryogenic engines to Kerala Hi-tech Industries Limited (KELTEC). The arrangement was designed to get around the provisions of the Missile Technology Control Regime (MTCR) – a Western cabal that aims to deny ballistic missile technology to non-Western countries, especially India.

The space czars of the two countries – Aleksey Vasin, officer-in-charge of cryogenic technology in Glavkosmos, and ISRO Chairman U.R. Rao – reckoned that if Russian cryogenic technology was passed on to ISRO via KELTEC, technically it would not be a violation of the MTCR.

Rocket row

The arrangements were denounced by American President George Bush as a violation of the MTCR. In May 1992 the United States slapped sanctions on ISRO and Glavkosmos. "India objected strongly to the American actions, pointing out that high-powered hydrogen-fuelled upper stages which took a long time to prepare were of little military value," writes Harvey.

India also pointed out the Americans had offered them the very same technology and had made no objections throughout the years 1988-92 when the arrangements had begun.

So does that mean the Americans were trying to achieve the dual aim of crippling both the Indian and Russian space programmes? Well, here's Glavkosmos' version.

Glavkosmos official Nikolai Semyonov accused Washington of attempting to destroy Russia's space industry. "When working out the contract, we used the MTCR guidelines in reaching the contract with India...what is more, Indian partners said at the start and later confirmed that they would use our technology exclusively for peaceful purposes."

Glavkosmos Chairman Aleksandr Dunayev said both Russia and India had called for an international inspection to determine that the deal did indeed comply with the terms of the MTCR. However, the United States did not respond to the proposal, but sent a US team to Russia to examine the situation.

Clinton: Playing hardball with India

Former US President Bill Clinton and his hawkish wife Hillary Rodham Clinton are for some inexplicable reason considered friends of India. It was under President Clinton that Russia backed off its proposals to transfer technology to India and suspended its agreement, invoking force majeure (circumstances beyond its control).

Under the revised Russia-India agreement in January 1994, Moscow agreed to transfer three, later renegotiated by India to seven fully assembled KVD-1 engines, without the associated technology. The United States also inserted a humiliating clause, according to which India would "agree to use the equipment purely for peaceful purposes, not to re-export it or modernise it without Russia's consent". No blueprints were to be given to India.

Duma fury

The Russian Parliament, however, was in no mood to let President Boris Yeltsin bail on India. On July 21, 1993 it passed a resolution declaring that international negotiations and agreements regarding the MTCR must be ratified by the Supreme Soviet of the Russian Federation.

A day later, Glavkosmos upped the pressure on Yeltsin, saying a decision to alter the Indian contract needed a special decision of the government. "We shall not stop fulfilling our obligations under the (Indian) contract until there is a government decision to the contrary," said Glavkosmos' Semyonov.

Really friendly scientists

Russian scientists sympathetic to the Indian cause realised the tech transfer window was about to close, and decided to transfer the production technology to their old friends.

However, with American spies crawling all over Russia during the early 1990s, transferring such a large cargo wasn't going to be easy. "ISRO first contacted Air India but the airline said it could not transport the equipment without customs clearance. And that was not possible without the American lobby in Russia coming to know about it," J. Rajasekharan Nair reveals in his book, Spies From Space: The ISRO Frame-Up.

So ISRO entered into an agreement with Russia's Ural Airlines, which was ready to take the risk for a little extra money. According to Harvey, "The appropriate documents, instruments and equipment were allegedly transferred in four shipments from Moscow to Delhi on covert flights by Ural Airlines. As a cover, they used 'legitimate' transhipments of Indian aircraft technology travelling the other way to Moscow for testing in Russian wind-tunnels."

This was confirmed by cryogenic team leader Nambi Narayanan who told the Indian media he was on board the flights that transported the technology to India.

The knife turns

The United States knew further arm-twisting at the diplomatic level would not be productive, says Nair. "So the CIA was entrusted with the job of aborting the circumlocutory transfer of cryogenic rocket technology through KELTEC, and of stalling or discrediting the transportation of raw materials and spare parts to ISRO."

Who's working for the CIA in India?

The first hint there was a foreign hand trying to destroy – or at the very least slow down – India's space programme surfaced in 1997 when five leading scientists – Satish Dhawan, U.R. Rao, Yashpal, Rodham Narasimha and K. Chandrasekhar – along with former Chief Election Commissioner T.N. Seshan wrote a joint letter to the government, saying the espionage charges against Nambi Narayanan and Sasi Kumaran were fabricated.

These were not ordinary people – they were public figures who clearly knew a thing or two about the inner workings of ISRO and the law and order system. And yet despite their plea, the IB tortured Nambi Narayanan to get him to implicated higher ups at ISRO. If Narayanan had cracked and acquiesced, perhaps the entire organisation would have collapsed.

It is a measure of how successful the CIA was in this spy game that its agents in the Kerala Police and Intelligence Bureau (IB) were able to have a swing at just about everyone in the cryogenic project.

For instance, the IB had Vasin of Glavkosmos interrogated at Moscow, and tried to link him to the case. "The IB implicated Ural Airlines after airing the lie that Ural had, as part of the espionage activities, transported documents from ISRO to Glavkosmos," says Nair.

(Nair also claims because of pressure from above, his book was made to disappear from stores and was never reprinted.)

That the policemen who went after India's top scientists and the IB men who guided them have been either cleared of all wrongdoing or remain unquestioned hints at their connections way up in the political leadership. The big question is who are these people who aided the CIA in scuttling India's biggest space project?

How India's cryogenic programme was wrecked | Russia & India Report

 

[CrYsIs]

Re: ISRO to launch GSLV-D5 in July

Well, to be honest, I am not an expert in space missions. So all my comments in the last few posts are based from what I heard and read. If you are an expert in Space tech, I would not want to argue with you.

I agree that GSLV will be the back bone for future Mars Missions, on the condition that the present MOM is successfully injected into Martian Orbit.

Cryogenic tech is sure turning out to be a black spot on ISRO's track record . Hope they perfect it this time.

There is no point in sending another mars mission on a PSLV.This one was a Technology demonstrator project.The next one ought to be a purely scientific project as with a payload of only 15 kgs nothing much can be done.


Even the GSLV that would be tested in early Jan is a light launcher that would be capable of placing the satellite just one oribt above and with a payload of
additional 10 kgs only.

It cannot carry a centaur type engine for a mars probe.

For India to carry any meaningful scientific experiment on Mars we need GSLV MK3 but unfortunately it will not be ready by 2018 as it would still be on developmental flights.

 

[tramp]

How India's cryogenic programme was wrecked

India was all set to master Russian cryogenic rocket technology when the United States – in cahoots with its moles in the Indian Intelligence Bureau – set in motion a series of events that implicated India's leading space scientists on cooked-up charges.

To understand the extent of damage caused to India's space programme because of the ISRO spy case, one has to first look at how close India was to mastering cryogenic rocket technology.

.....

It is a measure of how successful the CIA was in this spy game that its agents in the Kerala Police and Intelligence Bureau (IB) were able to have a swing at just about everyone in the cryogenic project.

For instance, the IB had Vasin of Glavkosmos interrogated at Moscow, and tried to link him to the case. "The IB implicated Ural Airlines after airing the lie that Ural had, as part of the espionage activities, transported documents from ISRO to Glavkosmos," says Nair.
...

That the policemen who went after India's top scientists and the IB men who guided them have been either cleared of all wrongdoing or remain unquestioned hints at their connections way up in the political leadership. The big question is who are these people who aided the CIA in scuttling India's biggest space project?

Too sad a story. And the same police officers are enjoying all perks of their morally corrupt life in happy retirement!