Germany Looking To Dock Sub Deal After Losing Fighter Project To France

[Rashna]

Germany looking to dock sub deal after losing fighter project to France

NEW DELHI: Having lost to France in the race to supply fighter jets, Germany is now pressing the throttle to partner India in manufacturing new-generation stealth submarines in an even bigger project.

Officials said Project-75-India, under which six advanced submarines are to be built by an Indian shipyard with foreign collaboration, figured prominently during delegation-level talks between visiting German defence minister Ursula von der Leyen and her Indian counterpart Manohar Parrikar on Tuesday evening.

The talks even touched on "what extra Germany could offer" if India decides to go in for a government-to-government (G2G) agreement on the submarine-building project. When the long-delayed P-75I gained "acceptance of necessity" in November 2007, it was estimated to cost over Rs 50,000 crore then.

Today, the proposed project would cost much more, especially since the diesel-electric submarines are to be armed with both land-attack missile capabilities and air-independent propulsion for greater underwater endurance.

On Wednesday, after meeting PM Narendra Modi, Von der Leyen said Germany was extremely keen to take part in the 'Make in India' initiative, especially in the field of submarines, since the two countries were "natural partners".

"You (India) don't want to only buy but want a close cooperation by manufacturing in India. I think it's a very smart approach... close cooperation between strategic partners should not be a one-way process," she said. German Chancellor Angela Merkel, incidentally, is slated to visit India later this year.

But it will not be a cakewalk for Germany (ship-builder ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems) since it will have to contend with a strong challenge from Russia (Rosoboronexport), France (DCNS) and Spain (Navantia) in an open competition for P-75I. India has even approached Japan for its new Soryu submarines manufactured by Mitsubishi Heavy Industries and Kawasaki Heavy Industries.

The prospect of the Modi government going in for a G2G deal to save time, however, has gained ground after it decided to directly buy 36 French Rafale fighters (which will cost over Rs 30,000 crore) by scrapping the deadlocked MMRCA (medium multi-role fighter aircraft) project for 126 such fighters.

Like the IAF's critical operational requirement for new fighters, the Navy too is making do with just 13 ageing diesel-electric submarines and one nuclear-powered INS Chakra on lease from Russia. Eleven of them are well over 20 years old, including the four German HDW or Shishumar-class submarines inducted between 1986 and 1994.

This when China has five nuclear and 51 conventional submarines, with another five advanced JIN-class nuclear submarines on the way, and is making regular forays into Indian Ocean. Pakistan, too, recently sealed a deal with China for eight advanced conventional submarines to add to the five it already has.

India wants to fast-track P-75I since it will take over a decade for the submarines to be constructed. As per the 30-year submarine building plan approved by the Cabinet Committee on Security way back in July 1999, the Navy was to induct 12 new submarines by 2012, with another dozen to follow in the 2012-2030 timeframe.

But the first of the six French Scorpene submarines being constructed at the Mazagon Docks for Rs 23,562 crore under Project-75 will be delivered only by September 2016. The other five are slated to follow at nine-month intervals each.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...er-project-to-France/articleshow/47451446.cms

 

[Rashna]

Another G2G agreement in the offing..... might speed up modernization which is already hit by the slow pace during UPA's tenure.

 

[Bheeshma]

The type-216 doesn't really exist and not sure if Brahmos-M or Klub or Nirbhay can be integrated with it.

 

[sathya]

Will it be non magnetic hull?

why are we agreeing to buy no advanced weaponry likr rdy3 instead of buying rdy 2

 

[The enlightened]

Will it be non magnetic hull?

why are we agreeing to buy no advanced weaponry likr rdy3 instead of buying rdy 2

RDY 3 is basically monkey model of RDY 2.

Non-magnetic? Here's an answer to that

This is kind of a classic issue, and there is a lot of confusion about it.

It is necessary to understand project legacy and concept origins to understand the differences between both ships, and the first thing we must clear about the question is:

None of the ships is overly superior to the other.

U-212 and U-214 are answers to different problems, and therefore they are different.
U-212 is the result of a german requirement for a submarine with a non magnetic hull. This requirement has to do with the average depth of the Baltic Sea (56m). In those circumstances, the most important defence method of a submarine is just to go to the bottom and try to disappear in the sonar. Hence, the need for a non-magnetic steel hull.
Unfortunatelly, non-magnetic steel is also known in the industry as «sweet.steel.» Meaning that it is «softer» than the steel used in the U-214. Thats why a U-214 can go deeper than a U-212, although in the shallow water of the Baltic the U-212 would go un-notices while the U-214 would probably be caught by sonar.

Actually the family legacy of U-212 is not U-209, but the Thyssen project from the 1970s that resulted in the TR-1700 submarine from Argentina. The fastest Diesel-electric submarine in the world. The same basic layout with two decks is also found in the Dolphin class from Israel, although without non-magnetic steel nor AIP.

U-214s legacy is the U-209, although much changed. It is narrower and longer that U-212. It was not thought for the Baltic, but for open deep sea operation. Therefore U-214 will have no bottom of the sea limit, other than the limit imposed by the resistance of its stronger hull.

Both U-214 and U-212 can operate in shallow waters or deep waters, but U-212 has the edge on shallow water, while U-214 has the edge on deep water.

The systems can be changed and installed on either vessels, depending on the requirement of the users.
U-212 has older systems than the U-214 (which is just natural as the projects are almost 10 years apart).

Note that U-212 was never offered as an option to a navy. When it was offered to the Italian navy, there was no U-214 yet.

U-212 uses an imported combat system partially made in Norway by Kongsberg, known as MSI-90, while U-214s combat system is made in germany.by Atlas-Elektronik, being the latest version of the ISUS-90 system.

There are many differences in combat systems, but one of the most important results in U-212 being only able to fire torpedoes, while U-214 can fire both torpedoes and submarine launched sub harpoon missiles. This will change in future versions of U-212 though.

The consolidation of german naval industry ended with the competition between both models in the 1990s.

One cant just say which of them is better. The U-212 was an absolute german need for the Baltic conditions. Italy wanted an AIP submarine, and there wasnt really any real choice at the time. When a navy makes an option for a model, the most logical option is to stick to it, and thus Italy is going to get an additional two U-212.

For a navy that is going to protect shallow waters, there is no doubt about the clear superiority of U-212. In deep sea operations away from the shores, U-214 will fare better.

 

[sathya]

Rdy 2 has longer range..
We didn't get it even after paying premium amount..

Nice enlightenment regarding non magnetic hull.

 

[The enlightened]

Rdy 2 has longer range..

Mirage 2000I has RDY 2.

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