Qatar Looking at Leopard 2A7 Tanks from Germany

[Zebra]

Leo 2A7

Jul 30, 2012 17:12 EDT

Der Speigel reports that Qatar's government have announced their interest in purchasing up to 200 Leopard 2A7 heavy tanks from Germany, in a deal that could be worth up to EUR 2 billion/ $2.46 billion. The tanks would more than replace Qatar's existing set of 30-40 French AMX-30 medium tanks, which are a 1970s era design.

Fellow Gulf Cooperation Council member Saudi Arabia is interested in 600-800 of these tanks, and a win in both countries could keep German armor manufacturers busy for quite some time......

full story: Qatar Looking at Leopard 2A7 Tanks from Germany

 

[Damian]

We will see. In Germany there is strong opposition for solding tanks to countries like SA or Qatar, there is even opposition inside German goverment.

 

[sob]

Why oh Why can't we go for these beauties.

To hell with T 90s .get these mean machines.

 

[methos]

We will see. In Germany there is strong opposition for solding tanks to countries like SA or Qatar, there is even opposition inside German goverment.

There is always opposition in the German government/people, regardless who wants to buy the weapons. Still most deals get through.

 

[Damian]

There is always opposition in the German government/people, regardless who wants to buy the weapons. Still most deals get through.

Most deals are not so... prestige.

Exporting assault rifles is a one thing, exporting so many tanks is something very different.

Just imagine, soldiers fights with a crowd and use G36, most people won't even take a notice. Now different situation, soldiers use Leopard 2... most people will know that this is german tank. Can You even imagine the outrage?

 

[sob]

Damian, the same argument can be said for the Eurofighter. Germany has been pushing forward for it's sale.

 

[Damian]

German goverment yes, but this does not mean that it will be sold to everyone.

Other thing is that EF is a European project, not solely German one.

 

[methos]

Most deals are not so... prestige.

Exporting assault rifles is a one thing, exporting so many tanks is something very different.

Just imagine, soldiers fights with a crowd and use G36, most people won't even take a notice. Now different situation, soldiers use Leopard 2... most people will know that this is german tank. Can You even imagine the outrage?

Turkey also did not get the Leopard 2 at the first try because of lacking human rights (esp. freedom of religion), just to get them a few years later when media wasn't paying as much attention as they did earlier.

It happened that there were G36 in Lybia, which was also noticed by media and government. H&K got observed by the police/advocacy, but in the end they didn't sell the weapons to Gaddafi, someone else did and resold them.

 

[ALBY]

Why oh Why can't we go for these beauties.

To hell with T 90s .get these mean machines.

Sob its too late and T90s are already inducted.Plus we already have a wide range of tanks like T90 Arjun,T55,T72,vijayantha etc.adding one more to it will increase more logistical problems.
Ps:T90 can easily over power alqalids and T80s.doesn't know much about type xyz series craps made in china.As far we have nukes and ballistic missiles there won't be a chance to set ablaze a Chinese tank.

 

[Damian]

Indian T-90S is comparable with Pakistani T-80UD... T-80UD in some aspects is even better, India have however advantage of numbers.

 

[ALBY]

Indian T-90S is comparable with Pakistani T-80UD... T-80UD in some aspects is even better, India have however advantage of numbers.

Sorry for ma previous ignorant post.T80s won't be an easy target for the T90s. Infact T80uds are much more better than T90 in terms of armor ,it is the descendant of T64 a technological wonder in its time where as T72 is the predecessor of T90 which is even though cheap but compromises crew safety.

 

[Akim]

Turkey also did not get the Leopard 2 at the first try because of lacking human rights (esp. freedom of religion), just to get them a few years later when media wasn't paying as much attention as they did earlier.

It happened that there were G36 in Lybia, which was also noticed by media and government. H&K got observed by the police/advocacy, but in the end they didn't sell the weapons to Gaddafi, someone else did and resold them.

Not the right Human influenced by the decision of Germany about supplying with Leo2 to Turkey, and tender. Remember, he was anniented in the middle, when Germany understood that lost a large customer and agreed.

 

[methos]

Not the right Human influenced by the decision of Germany about supplying with Leo2 to Turkey, and tender. Remember, he was anniented in the middle, when Germany understood that lost a large customer and agreed.

There is no official reason because the federal security council works in secrecy. However the then ruling coalition of the SPD and the German green party did not allow the export and members of these two parties said that human rights were one of the reasons why the council said no. Wether this is true or not is unknown for all of us.
Turkey did get their Leopard 2 tanks after the elections of 2005, in which the former government did not get enough votes to continue ruling Germany. It is not that Germany did fear that they would find noone who wants to buy their tanks, the government simply changed and so did the export policy.
Currently German-language newspaper do believe that countries like Saudi-Arabia and Qatar will get the Leopard 2, but that Merkel will make this decision after the next elections 2013 or in the time between election and the official inauguration of the next government.

It happened that Germany sold ex-GDR BTRs to the Turkey, which were filmed by some journalists killing rebellious kurds - which was one of the reasons why the parties ruling pre-2005 did not want to sell the Leopard 2.

 

[Akim]

There is no official reason because the federal security council works in secrecy. However the then ruling coalition of the SPD and the German green party did not allow the export and members of these two parties said that human rights were one of the reasons why the council said no. Wether this is true or not is unknown for all of us.
Turkey did get their Leopard 2 tanks after the elections of 2005, in which the former government did not get enough votes to continue ruling Germany. It is not that Germany did fear that they would find noone who wants to buy their tanks, the government simply changed and so did the export policy.
Currently German-language newspaper do believe that countries like Saudi-Arabia and Qatar will get the Leopard 2, but that Merkel will make this decision after the next elections 2013 or in the time between election and the official inauguration of the next government.

It happened that Germany sold ex-GDR BTRs to the Turkey, which were filmed by some journalists killing rebellious kurds - which was one of the reasons why the parties ruling pre-2005 did not want to sell the Leopard 2.

I know about exteriority of Bundestag, he fights about Human rights, but also I know how in business laws are the West- hard. You remember as two years back Berlin renounced to supply with engines to Ukraine for BTR-3Е1, which was ordered by Thailand. Also motivated that for them with Cambodia conflict. And only, when Bangkok decided to put the Ukrainian experienced engines. Germany consented. Of course is eventual not in those scanty sums, simply then there is dependence in German repair parts and components and country is a customer of squander "on the needle" of Bundeswehr.
By the way a Turkish tender was then won by Israel,

but however Turkey bought cheaply Leo 2A4.

 

[methos]

By the way a Turkish tender was then won by Israel, but however Turkey bought cheaply Leo 2A4.

Are you sure? According to a German book the Leopard 2 was the prefered tank (also because of the low costs), but it does not mention any Isreali offer; according to it the Turkey also was offered the M1, Leclerc and T-84 Yatagan.
If there was a Merkava tank, then it would have been the Mk.3, which was rather underpowered for being heavier than all of the other four vehicles, while only having a 1,200 hp engine.

 

[Akim]

Are you sure? According to a German book the Leopard 2 was the prefered tank (also because of the low costs), but it does not mention any Isreali offer; according to it the Turkey also was offered the M1, Leclerc and T-84 Yatagan.
If there was a Merkava tank, then it would have been the Mk.3, which was rather underpowered for being heavier than all of the other four vehicles, while only having a 1,200 hp engine.

Not Merkava - she in general was not there. Simply Turkey decided upgrade all the М- 60 with help of Israel, but not to buy new tanks. On the first places were really Leopard 2A6 MBT and BM Yatagan. I will not begin to argue who of them better. The simply Ukrainian tank costed far cheaper and Ukraine is ready was to pass part of technologies of production. But from the games of politicians a broke the tender.

 

[methos]

I am not sure if we are talking about the same tank procurement... at the time the Turkey originally wanted to buy the Leopard 2, there was no 2A6 in service and Yatagan was not even produced. But this deal was not allowed, which was then suspended until later, so the Turks decided to buy the M60T modernization for some of their tanks - there was no tender.
When the government was willing to sell the Leopard 2 tanks 298 of the surplus German tanks were bought. There was no Leopard 2A6 offered at this time, only plain Leopard 2A4s with the possibility to upgrade them later to 2A5 level (for further costs) - the tank tested by the Turks was the same tank as used for testing in Greece, i.e. a Leopard 2A5 with the applique armour of the Strv 122.

The Leopard 2A6 was offered at a later time, somewhere around 2007/8. Then the Turkey wanted to buy further tanks, but canceled the tender and decided that the new tank had to be made in the Turkey. Therefore the Leopard 2A6 was offered at a later time as licence-produced version (i.e. probably like the Leopard 2A6HEL). However the Turks chose to cooperate with South Korea to produce a more indigenous tank instead.

 

[Akim]

I am not sure if we are talking about the same tank procurement... at the time the Turkey originally wanted to buy the Leopard 2, there was no 2A6 in service and Yatagan was not even produced. But this deal was not allowed, which was then suspended until later, so the Turks decided to buy the M60T modernization for some of their tanks - there was no tender.
When the government was willing to sell the Leopard 2 tanks 298 of the surplus German tanks were bought. There was no Leopard 2A6 offered at this time, only plain Leopard 2A4s with the possibility to upgrade them later to 2A5 level (for further costs) - the tank tested by the Turks was the same tank as used for testing in Greece, i.e. a Leopard 2A5 with the applique armour of the Strv 122.

The Leopard 2A6 was offered at a later time, somewhere around 2007/8. Then the Turkey wanted to buy further tanks, but canceled the tender and decided that the new tank had to be made in the Turkey. Therefore the Leopard 2A6 was offered at a later time as licence-produced version (i.e. probably like the Leopard 2A6HEL). However the Turks chose to cooperate with South Korea to produce a more indigenous tank instead.

BM Yatagan is not produced - that a customer is not. He was created as well as Т- 72-120 on cannon of NATO. But those who buys at Ukraine tanks prefer the "soviet" caliber of 125-мм. And the Turkish tender, very looked like Peruvian. In Peru also wanted to buy new tanks - then they brought disgrace on the President, then they decided to modernize the tanks of Т- 55 to the level of T - 55M8A2 Typhoon. Changed mind then. Now again want to hold a tender on new machines. But probably will decide to purchase old Т-72AG.