Future Infantry Combat Vehicle (FICV)

[Bhadra]

Couple of basic facts.

India has more experience than any European country in the use of APCs, ICVs in actual combat!

When fighting through the objective, there are two ways of doing so.

1. Mounted
2. Dismounted away from the objective and fighting like regular infantry with the ICV acting as the firebase. This method is adopted when there is a minefield and the attrition thereof not being acceptable.

When mounted, the fight through the objective and fighting through the objective means fighting will ALL weapons and not merely going along in a protected move and then fanning out to protect against the Counter Attack with the weapons in built in the ICV. If that were so, what are the infantry soldiers on board doing? Have a free ride to collect medals for which they did nothing.

It is not Indians who have an unique way of using the ICV, it is universal. You may read the US and Russian military tactics book to realise so.

Brig,

The Indian Mechanised Infirm are not Infantry but believe in destruction by fire power, shock action, movement and by not moving their asses like the famous cavalry men. They believe in passing over the buck (objectives) like their horse mounted brothers and even getting bogged down even when they are tracked.

 

[Ray]

Check Trend in Design of ICVs

Taylor & Francis Online :: Trends in Design and Employment of Tracked Infantry Combat Vehicles - Strategic Analysis - Volume 7, Issue 10

Experience of a BMP Battalion Commander

Taylor & Francis Online :: The experiences of a BMP battalion commander—reform, and the way ahead for armoured infantry - The RUSI Journal - Volume 134, Issue 3

 

[Ray]

BMP 3

The seven-seat troop compartment is arranged behind the fighting compartment. Two are individual seats and five are group seats located near the engine compartment bulkhead. There are air ducts here to provide clean air for the troops. There are also boxes with daily rations for the personnel and SPTA boxes. Armored firing portholes are located in the vehicle's hull sides. Three hatches are provided in the front part of the vehicle and two hatches on the turret both for the crew and troop. There are three hatches in the front part of the vehicle and two hatches on the turret both for the crew and troops. There are also rear doors and hinged front covers in the hull. The powerplant compartment is arranged directly after the troop compartment. Both compartments are separated by an inner soundproof wall. The powerplant compartment houses an engine, power transmission assemblies and corresponding systems. Removable covers and ports provide easy access to the engine and power transmission assemblies. The vehicle's track and suspension system comprises six road wheels and support rollers.

BMP-3 | Russian Military Analysis

 

[Damian]

Check Trend in Design of ICVs

Taylor & Francis Online :: Trends in Design and Employment of Tracked Infantry Combat Vehicles - Strategic Analysis - Volume 7, Issue 10

Experience of a BMP Battalion Commander

Taylor & Francis Online :: The experiences of a BMP battalion commander—reform, and the way ahead for armoured infantry - The RUSI Journal - Volume 134, Issue 3

From the 1980's...

Are the US planning to replace the STRYKER ???? I heard it was the mobile force for the future

In long term yes, M2 IFV, M113's and Strykers will be replaced by GCV based platforms. First for replacement will be M113, later M2's and Strykers when more GCV will be manufactured.

In short. No General Sinsheki, no Future Combat Systems, Iraq and Afghanistan experiences, the end of dream about ultra light mechanized forces, we go back to the good old heavy armor-mechnized forces with heavy armored MBT's and better protected IFV's.

BMP 3

The seven-seat troop compartment is arranged behind the fighting compartment. Two are individual seats and five are group seats located near the engine compartment bulkhead. There are air ducts here to provide clean air for the troops. There are also boxes with daily rations for the personnel and SPTA boxes. Armored firing portholes are located in the vehicle's hull sides. Three hatches are provided in the front part of the vehicle and two hatches on the turret both for the crew and troop. There are three hatches in the front part of the vehicle and two hatches on the turret both for the crew and troops. There are also rear doors and hinged front covers in the hull. The powerplant compartment is arranged directly after the troop compartment. Both compartments are separated by an inner soundproof wall. The powerplant compartment houses an engine, power transmission assemblies and corresponding systems. Removable covers and ports provide easy access to the engine and power transmission assemblies. The vehicle's track and suspension system comprises six road wheels and support rollers.

BMP-3 | Russian Military Analysis

Ray, You are aware that Russians see BMP-3 as obsolete and too lightly armored vehicle? You think why they are designing "Armata" as heavy tracked platform, "Kurganets" as medium tracked platform and direct replacement for BMP series, and "Boomerang" wheeled platform to replace BTR's?

 

[Bhadra]

Damain,

The question is what kind of environment and battle scenarios the armour vehicles will be used. Look around you. Syria, Lebnon, Egypt, Lybia. Saudi Arabaia, Pakistan, India, Korea, China..... ooof etc etc.

Where in the hell is requirement of a tracked TCV / ICV ?????

Who the hell is fighting a thousand Km battle? WW II is not going to return .. Ah.
The battle is against a building, encampment, a small or large township, streets, gullies and along roads ..

Why should one need a tracked vehicle when wheels can provide cost effectiveness and limited cross country mobility !

 

[SPIEZ]

From the 1980's...

In long term yes, M2 IFV, M113's and Strykers will be replaced by GCV based platforms. First for replacement will be M113, later M2's and Strykers when more GCV will be manufactured.

In short. No General Sinsheki, no Future Combat Systems, Iraq and Afghanistan experiences, the end of dream about ultra light mechanized forces, we go back to the good old heavy armor-mechnized forces with heavy armored MBT's and better protected IFV's.

What transportation methods will be used for the heavy vehicles in that case ?

 

[Kunal Biswas]

APC or ICV may have to assault the objective mounted. It there is no portholes and if an enemy in the defence is aiming any Anti Tank weapon to knock of the ICV, then if there is a porthole, that enemy can be shot before he can fire.Likewise, when moving in advance, there is a possibility of enemy HHMT which are lying in wait. If observed, the portholes come into action!Likewise in MOUT.If blind, then this is not feasible.

Sir,
As these vehicles are relayed on heavy Armour and speed, they don't use port holes, Port holes proved ineffective as the enemy AT are usually hidden and fired from too close or a ATGM fired from too far, It gives the person inside the vehicle very slight chance to react or no defense at all, BMP-1/2 performance was not good in Afghanistan and Chechnya, And both times it was stressed to up Armour-ed BMP-2 from side and front, Now days most modern IFV & APC tracked are without portholes and stressed on increasing Armour or use Armour kit, If hit it can still fire and retreat back for repairs..

Chechnya & Afghanistan:

Regular BMP-2 with no side Armour or frontal..

Destroyed BMP-2, BMP light amour can only protect it from 7.62mm ammo at sides and little more on front, No defense against hidden AT placements..

And As soon as possible Russian using BMP-2D a little more armored from sides as a improvised solution..

Recent BMP-2 upgrades are heavily armored from sides and front removing portholes, As the lesson learned from previous wars..

Addition to this:

US Bradly too have portholes but they too cover them with heavy era..

Israeli are most engage with Urban warfare, And they relied on heavy APC only..

Same goes for newer APC & IFV, Specially battle experiences Russian and American so does Israelis with Indigenous Around vehicle..

 

[Bhadra]

I ask every one ?

Is the tracked BPM / ICV any where battle proven like many famous Russian tanks or western pill boxes (tanks) ?
Tell me a place where ICV as a concept has proved to be good ?
It was meant for a warfare of Western Europe and with developments there the idea is dead.

 

[Damian]

Damain,

The question is what kind of environment and battle scenarios the armour vehicles will be used. Look around you. Syria, Lebnon, Egypt, Lybia. Saudi Arabaia, Pakistan, India, Korea, China..... ooof etc etc.

Where in the hell is requirement of a tracked TCV / ICV ?????

Who the hell is fighting a thousand Km battle? WW II is not going to return .. Ah.
The battle is against a building, encampment, a small or large township, streets, gullies and along roads ..

Why should one need a tracked vehicle when wheels can provide cost effectiveness and limited cross country mobility !

Ok armchair general, tell that to US Army that have real combat experience in such environment and want tracked IFV instead of wheeled vehicles. Tell that Russians that want tracked platforms with heavier protection, yeah tell that to Germans that are manufacturing tracked Puma, oh wait actually every big manufacturer of combat vehicles will make tracked vehicles for future. You know why? Because tracked vehicle can be used in difficult terrain far more effectively than wheeled one and is capable to have greater protection without loosing tactical mobility.

What transportation methods will be used for the heavy vehicles in that case ?

Same that are used these days. Long road marches = HETS, railroad, C-5 and C-17 heavy transport planes and transport ships. The idea of light or medium mechnized brigades that are capable to be quickly transported via transport planes is complete and utter BS. Even USAF do not have enough transport planes to quickly transport even one mech brigade from US to any other place on earth.

 

[Damian]

I ask every one ?

Is the tracked BPM / ICV any where battle proven like many famous Russian tanks or western pill boxes (tanks) ?
Tell me a place where ICV as a concept has proved to be good ?
It was meant for a warfare of Western Europe and with developments there the idea is dead.

Yeah right, so M2 IFV was not combat proven and effective, even very effective?

I assume that You live in some sort of alternative reality?

US Bradly too have portholes but they too cover them with heavy era..

Kunal friend, actually You are partially right, but only partially, only M2 and M2A1 had side firing ports, these were deleted in M2A2 and M2A3 (it is on picture You provided), also the M3 series of CFV's were not builded with firing ports, only some initialy manufactured vehicles had these and these were quickly deleted and holes were welded with cover plates.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

BMP 3

The seven-seat troop compartment is arranged behind the fighting compartment. Two are individual seats and five are group seats located near the engine compartment bulkhead. There are air ducts here to provide clean air for the troops. There are also boxes with daily rations for the personnel and SPTA boxes. Armored firing portholes are located in the vehicle's hull sides.
BMP-3 | Russian Military Analysis

They are also using Heavy era & addon modules..

 

[Ray]

OK Kunal, let us buy the idea that there is no requirement of portholes.

Then what is the infantry doing inside the well protected armoured vehicle?

Taking a ride?

Fine.

What is their employment in an attack?

Pictures does not quite enamour me. I rather be hands on.

I sure would like to know the concept where the infantry is moved highly protected with no role to play since that will update me.

 

[Bhadra]

You said:
<i> BMP-1/2 performance was not good in Afghanistan and Chechnya, And both times it was stressed to up Armour-ed BMP-2 from side and front, Now days most modern IFV & APC tracked are without portholes and stressed on increasing Armour or use Armour kit, If hit it can still fire and retreat back for repairs.. </i>

You also said:
<i> Israeli are most engage with Urban warfare, And they relied on heavy APC only.. </i>

Wrong . the israelies developed their Markva (troop carrying tanks)

 

[Kunal Biswas]

I ask every one ?

Is the tracked BMp / ICV any where battle proven like many famous Russian tanks or western pill boxes (tanks) ?Tell me a place where ICV as a concept has proved to be good ?It was meant for a warfare of Western Europe and with developments there the idea is dead.

In desert storm & And Iraqi freedom were mobile armored battles, the one who sit like a pill box which were Iraqi with BMP and T-72 were destroyed..
Battle of 73 Easting - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Bradly was better armored and have better safety records than a BMP-2..

 

[Bhadra]

OK Kunal, let us buy the idea that there is no requirement of portholes.

Then what is the infantry doing inside the well protected armoured vehicle?

Taking a ride?

Fine.

What is their employment in an attack?

I sure would like to know the concept since that will update me.

A Carrier without capability to fire on move is a battle taxi . it is on move and nothing else..

Well in all famous engagements of IA, the troops prefer to be mounted on top of BMPs rather than being inside it. I can quote many examples !!

 

[Ray]

Kunal friend, actually You are partially right, but only partially, only M2 and M2A1 had side firing ports, these were deleted in M2A2 and M2A3 (it is on picture You provided), also the M3 series of CFV's were not builded with firing ports, only some initialy manufactured vehicles had these and these were quickly deleted and holes were welded with cover plates.

Why were the 'dleted' if indeed they were.

What is the tactical reasons to do so and how are the infantry moving in this highly protected vehicle to be tactically employed?

I am not saying that you are wrong, what I am saying is that as an Infantry person, one would be damned to be moving protected and not being able to take action and on top of it losing awareness of the combat environment being enclosed in a small place and blind!

 

[Ray]

In desert storm & And Iraqi freedom were mobile armored battles, the one who sit like a pill box which were Iraqi with BMP and T-72 were destroyed..
Battle of 73 Easting - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Bradly was better armored and have better safety records than a BMP-2..

Please let us not go by Iraq war example.

We are well aware how the Iraqis fought!

 

[SPIEZ]

In desert storm & And Iraqi freedom were mobile armored battles, the one who sit like a pill box which were Iraqi with BMP and T-72 were destroyed..
Battle of 73 Easting - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Bradly was better armored and have better safety records than a BMP-2..

Why so Kunal, because of the extra armor ?

 

[Bhadra]

In desert storm & And Iraqi freedom were mobile armored battles, the one who sit like a pill box which were Iraqi with BMP and T-72 were destroyed..
Battle of 73 Easting - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Bradly was better armored and have better safety records than a BMP-2..

Kunal,

I expect you to give better example rather than that Amirkhan crap on Iraq which was never any battle

 

[Kunal Biswas]

OK Kunal, let us buy the idea that there is no requirement of portholes.Then what is the infantry doing inside the well protected armoured vehicle?What is their employment in an attack?I sure would like to know the concept where the infantry is moved highly protected with no role to play since that will update me.

Infantry have its role to play when dismounted, the cannon of the IFV/ICV/APC is for fire-support, The APC Armour is for protection of the crew the vehicle and most importantly the infantry inside, the turret is for fire role..

Wrong . the israelies developed their Markva (troop carrying tanks)

They carry wounded and full equipped 4 men only..