Future Infantry Combat Vehicle (FICV)

[cyclops]

Yes.... Its TATA who said that they could create one without government funding. But I wonder why IA is apprehensive about it and saying that it would further delay things. On one hand they are not satisfied with OFB products, on other hand they want their involvement.

What IA wants?

I'm guessing the whole discussions with the MOD and IA will have to start all over again if TATA wants to go with Make-2 and not Make-1.
Make-1 discussions have already eaten up so much time, and there's no guarantee that Make-2 will be any faster, which is why IA seems to be reluctant.

Probably the MOD sees the opportunity to save the government some money which is why they are entertaining TATA's Make-2 proposal, whereas IA sees this attempt as further delaying an already delayed project and thereby lessening their warfighting capability.

Indian DPPs are such that L1s were/are usually given preference. Buy Indian might just become the norm but the lowest bidder thing will be difficult to root out.

TATA knows that being the L1 bidder will give them the upper hand so they go with Make-2 and bank on the politicians' practice of going for the lowest price weapon system, as the final okay will be that of the government's.

Whereas the MOD knows how defence deals go in the country, look at the Rafale mess. "Why this much money is being wasted, when something can be brought for cheap?" is literally the first thing they want to avoid for such big deals.
The "kitna deti hai" attitude biomagnifies down even to our political class.

We have to stop this L1 business and provide for efficient logistics for vendors opting for either Make-2 or Make-1 and then opt for the best and not the cheapest product.
After all, we are not haggling for aloos and gobis down in the market; this is the defence of the nation we are talking about.

 

[Chinmoy]

I'm guessing the whole discussions with the MOD and IA will have to start all over again if TATA wants to go with Make-2 and not Make-1.
Make-1 discussions have already eaten up so much time, and there's no guarantee that Make-2 will be any faster, which is why IA seems to be reluctant.

Probably the MOD sees the opportunity to save the government some money which is why they are entertaining TATA's Make-2 proposal, whereas IA sees this attempt as further delaying an already delayed project and thereby lessening their warfighting capability.

Indian DPPs are such that L1s were/are usually given preference. Buy Indian might just become the norm but the lowest bidder thing will be difficult to root out.

TATA knows that being the L1 bidder will give them the upper hand so they go with Make-2 and bank on the politicians' practice of going for the lowest price weapon system, as the final okay will be that of the government's.

Whereas the MOD knows how defence deals go in the country, look at the Rafale mess. "Why this much money is being wasted, when something can be brought for cheap?" is literally the first thing they want to avoid for such big deals.
The "kitna deti hai" attitude biomagnifies down even to our political class.

We have to stop this L1 business and provide for efficient logistics for vendors opting for either Make-2 or Make-1 and then opt for the best and not the cheapest product.
After all, we are not haggling for aloos and gobis down in the market; this is the defence of the nation we are talking about.

Probably......... But I think when there is question of indigenous production, IA should put their feet down. Cost is a factor which would be taken care by MoD and it is the tech specs which IA should look at.

Whether its Make-1 or Make-2 way, there would always be techno commercial bid. IA should put its foot down on Technical aspect and then let co's decide on which way they would move. The biggest concern for IA should be time frame and technical aspect, not the commercial.

L1 is important in commercial aspect of the deal, so either way if technical design is not compromised, commercial could be taken care of. I think MoD should involve both Make-1 and Make-2 category with the condition that whole IP right would be with the company. After all its the cost of the tech which matters at the end.

 

[cobra commando]

L&Ts FICV concept
______________________________

 

[Prashant12]

L&T FICV hull and chasis

 

[Anikastha]

Yes.... Its TATA who said that they could create one without government funding. But I wonder why IA is apprehensive about it and saying that it would further delay things. On one hand they are not satisfied with OFB products, on other hand they want their involvement.

What IA wants?

Kick backs.
Top brass in Indian Military and Civilian IAS officials in MOD are corrupt to core.

 

[cyclops]

Probably......... But I think when there is question of indigenous production, IA should put their feet down. Cost is a factor which would be taken care by MoD and it is the tech specs which IA should look at.

Whether its Make-1 or Make-2 way, there would always be techno commercial bid. IA should put its foot down on Technical aspect and then let co's decide on which way they would move. The biggest concern for IA should be time frame and technical aspect, not the commercial.

L1 is important in commercial aspect of the deal, so either way if technical design is not compromised, commercial could be taken care of. I think MoD should involve both Make-1 and Make-2 category with the condition that whole IP right would be with the company. After all its the cost of the tech which matters at the end.

Army has already put their foot down.
Regardless of what's chosen, FICV will only be Indian.

I understand that we as civilians with a segregated pov want to see less disagreements between the military and the government but the MOD and general politicians who have the power to finally okay the thing aren't always the best at the logistics of a defence procurement.

IA's main concern seems to be quick induction of FICVs whereas the Defence Ministry seems to want the cheapest option while time frame seems to be a bit down the list, mostly to prevent being dragged into VVIP chopper or Rafale like mess.
Ever since the Bofors scandal, our polity seems to have become super averse to making fast decisions, they'd rather if the defence deal takes super long and is cheap than fast but costly.

 

[Chinmoy]

Army has already put their foot down.
Regardless of what's chosen, FICV will only be Indian.

I understand that we as civilians with a segregated pov want to see less disagreements between the military and the government but the MOD and general politicians who have the power to finally okay the thing aren't always the best at the logistics of a defence procurement.

IA's main concern seems to be quick induction of FICVs whereas the Defence Ministry seems to want the cheapest option while time frame seems to be a bit down the list, mostly to prevent being dragged into VVIP chopper or Rafale like mess.
Ever since the Bofors scandal, our polity seems to have become super averse to making fast decisions, they'd rather if the defence deal takes super long and is cheap than fast but costly.

I am not talking on the final product. Either way, Make 1 or 2, it would be made in India as of now.

What I am talking of is apprehension of IA towards Make 2. They should stick to the time frame instead of make category. If OEM could deliver it in Make 2 category in stipulated time frame, then what could be the reason for them not approving it?

 

[Chinmoy]

L&Ts FICV concept
______________________________

Now what system is this?

 

[cyclops]

I am not talking on the final product. Either way, Make 1 or 2, it would be made in India as of now.

What I am talking of is apprehension of IA towards Make 2. They should stick to the time frame instead of make category. If OEM could deliver it in Make 2 category in stipulated time frame, then what could be the reason for them not approving it?

Time is the reason.
As I said initially, IA believes it will take more time if TATA decides to go into Make-2 at this late a stage.

Army is justified, they are willing to accept a completely new product from an Indian company that has no experience in making the same, I think the MOD should put its foot down now and listen to IA and think about inducting the FICV quickly and not think about saving money.

 

[Bleh]

Now what system is this?

View attachment 31115

Looks like it's a K9 Vajra unfinished hull...

 

[Chinmoy]

Time is the reason.
As I said initially, IA believes it will take more time if TATA decides to go into Make-2 at this late a stage.

Army is justified, they are willing to accept a completely new product from an Indian company that has no experience in making the same, I think the MOD should put its foot down now and listen to IA and think about inducting the FICV quickly and not think about saving money.

I agree...... But if TATA could deliver the system within stipulated time frame, IA should have no objection to it. IA is apprehensive about the idea that it would extend the time frame and they should instaed put their foot down on the time line and specs instead of the Make Category.

 

[cyclops]

I agree...... But if TATA could deliver the system within stipulated time frame, IA should have no objection to it.

Agreed, if that is indeed the case then IA should put their foot down.

IA is apprehensive about the idea that it would extend the time frame and they should instaed put their foot down on the time line and specs instead of the Make Category.

Technically, we don't know that.
Army might have a legitimate case when they say Make-2 would take a lot of time, and they might have done their due diligence before bringing forth this problem. I really doubt they are saying so for the heck of it.

After all, what would they gain from delaying the project or specifically wanting Make-1? They have to buy an Indian product, this way or that, also be it Make-1 or Make-2 IA still has to put the money back in India and there is no system that is completely foreign that is allowed to vie for the FICV.
I mean look at how much time FICV took to be finalized under Make-1.

Eitherway we don't have enough information to judge who's in the wrong, for all we know it already has been sorted out.

 

[Chinmoy]

Agreed, if that is indeed the case then IA should put their foot down.



Technically, we don't know that.
Army might have a legitimate case when they say Make-2 would take a lot of time, and they might have done their due diligence before bringing forth this problem. I really doubt they are saying so for the heck of it.

After all, what would they gain from delaying the project or specifically wanting Make-1? They have to buy an Indian product, this way or that, also be it Make-1 or Make-2 IA still has to put the money back in India and there is no system that is completely foreign that is allowed to vie for the FICV.
I mean look at how much time FICV took to be finalized under Make-1.

Eitherway we don't have enough information to judge who's in the wrong, for all we know it already has been sorted out.

Exactly my point. But none of the OEMs has submitted a prototype as of now. So whether we go with Make 1 or 2, the time line is crucial. If any vendor could provide a prototype under any category under the stipulated timeline, no one should have any concern regarding this.

 

[Killswitch]

Another critical project that hasnt moved an inch towards induction. There should be prototypes in trials by now.

 

[Hunter ellis]

Another critical project that hasnt moved an inch towards induction. There should be prototypes in trials by now.

Well the name of the project says it all . It'll be inducted in the "FUTURE".

 

[proud_indian]

FICV Project Needs to be Moved Under Make I, Says J D PAtil

 

[Prashant12]

OF Medak is also working on what it will offer as an entry in the Indian Army's Future Infantry Combat Vehicle (FICV) competition. They intend to have their prototype ready by December 2019. Fabrication work on the same is currently underway.




The Future Infantry Combat Vehicle (FICV) design from Ordnance Factory Medak will have an unmanned turret and an active protection system. Importantly, its hull will have composite armour, with the expectation of better protection at a lower than otherwise weight penalty.

 

[ezsasa]

OF Medak is also working on what it will offer as an entry in the Indian Army's Future Infantry Combat Vehicle (FICV) competition. They intend to have their prototype ready by December 2019. Fabrication work on the same is currently underway.




The Future Infantry Combat Vehicle (FICV) design from Ordnance Factory Medak will have an unmanned turret and an active protection system. Importantly, its hull will have composite armour, with the expectation of better protection at a lower than otherwise weight penalty.

So this explains why there was no visible movement on FICV, looks like DPSUs wanted time to pitch their product for the competition.

I am sure if we do some digging, we might find similar delays forced by DPSUs in other procurements. Off top of my head OFB’s 7.62 NATO rifle comes to mind. Only when IA rejected the prototype, the foreign procurement went ahead..

 

[G10]

Why always there has to be PSU. Unnecessarily we are losing resources in internal competition. ATAGS was a good project. DRDO helping out private players. Thats the way to go.

 

[ezsasa]

Why always there has to be PSU. Unnecessarily we are losing resources in internal competition. ATAGS was a good project. DRDO helping out private players. Thats the way to go.

DPSUs are our safety net... Scope for Private players will increase definitely, based on their performance from now on. Private players are already involved for manufacturing sub-components , just not as Primary integrators.
But DPSUs are here to stay....