China doesn't just RE, they outright steal designs they were given limited license and then turn around and call it their own. If China tries selling J-11B, they will get hell from Russia.[/QUOTE
Russians were pissed, China played them for a fool. when they discovered China could not get the engine working, They negotiated a deal where officially China would license produce the J-11 from Russia and Russian Firm retain control and make money of Engine sales.
It was at best a peace meal agreement to salvage the damage China had done to Russia-China ties.
look buddy you obviously are living in the 20th century so i'll clear some facts for you
first of all russian's stole the tech, they didn't buy a couple of n bombs and then copied the rest like the chinese.That situation is a whole lot different from today's, first as fulcrum said in cold war survival>RE , second and most importantly even if the russians agreed to sell their souls, the americans wouldn't have given them any military tech, but that was not the case with china, everybody was selling them stuff, the USA and israelis(lavi), russia(mig,air defence etc etc).
We have an misunderstanding.
I am not defending what is essentially stealing, The Chinese made an agreement and then they went back on them
I am defending good old fashioned RE. Where you take something your enemy or rival has then you understand and them, and negate your rivals advantage.
Did you ever stopped for a second to think what happened? why is nobody willing to sell stuff to them now, when everyone was cooperating with them in the 80's?
The answer is not tianamen square, that is just a cover up , the only reason is the blatant copying and cheap mentality , it is a bloody vicious circle
the chinese have dug a hole for themselves , nobody would sell them because of the RE that will lead to more RE and hence more sanctions.
They broke contracts, No one had any faith in them anymore, They Not only RE but also publicly made public copies.
Deals were made and the Chines broke these deals.
Well you would be one among the vast expanse of fanboys that would be a
pplauding , but i sincerely doubt experts would be.
Chinese AWACS crash in Arunachal due to a freak mishap, All hands lost. But the plane is still most intact.
Do we return the plane to China, or do we send it DRDO o be stripped apart and analyzed, Essentially RE.
We will have insight into China's latest radar equipment. and may even grab a few interesting ideas for our selves.
lets say Hypothetically india copies the F-22, then it would establish india as one of the most prominent Copy Cat nations also (similar to what china is today)
in effect we won't be getting any future tech, for example
1. no c-17
2.no c 130 j
3. no p8i
4. no akula
5. no mmrca
6. no barak
7.no spyder
I can go on and on but i hope you get the poin
t.
Well this is my fault i am using a bad example here. We have more allies, friends and Benefactors then we do enemies. Most of them include our sources of arms, it would be unwise of us to make public copies of any of their products,
most trust us enough to give us ToT,
look at china . name one next gen tech that they have . all that they have is backward technology that they scavenged off of russia in the nineties , compare this to india
They are still a developing nation, despite their RE in exchange for Alienation.
Any next gen tech from China will be at least a decade away by which time the US predicts them to be able to catch up to the big players
scavenged off of russia in the nineties , compare this to india
You want me to compare to India, Ok good sir, Other than the FGFA and F-INSAS which are still not ready what tech do we have that will give us advantage over China ?
Bhramos and BMD system can only do so much.
1.are they getting a Potent nuclear submarine from russia?
They have a massive fleet of their own Nuclear submarines,
And are building the second generation of those submarines, which are more comparable to the nuclear sub's used around the world.
Even if they are qualitatively inferior, they have a lot more subs then us.
2. is any country in the world willing to sell them AESA tech? , whereas everybody is practiacally dying to sell it to india.
They have an older version of the Phalcon radar from Israeli, RE when US intervened and canceled the trade of Phalcon radars. This all occurred a while back in the 90's.
The KJ-2000 is esentially China's Modified RE version of the Phalcon system
3. do you see them operating exceptional transport planes like c-17?
We should be making our own planes, Not boasting about transport planes we bought,
4 do you see russia partnering them on PAK-fa?
Rumor has it Russia approached India for participation the PAF-FA in the Late 90's,
we all know India was still deciding on if it should or not participate.
Russia unhappy with delays approached China to bank role the project, China said no.
They were already working on the J-XX program.
They might be looking superior to you right now , but when defence equipment goes for a generational leap, they would be left with nothing but obsolete technology , because nobody would be selling them anything.
Do you still see RE as a sensible option?
This is because you are looking at it from a static point of view.
Your RE this generation to catch up, so that when it comes to go the next generation you have a solid base in this generation to make that shift in R&D to make that jump to the next generation using lessons learned though RE.
There is no reason why The People of China cant adapt and change like any other human being. How well they ca do so is the only thing in question, China was never going to RE for ever, All the RE thys do is just stop gap to sill holes in their Defenses.
RE first requires one to understand what is being engineered. This is why China does not RE everything some things they cant engineer.
It still remains to be seen what kind of products China can come up with for the next generation, so far examples such as the T-99 are promising . But based on the RE they have done for this generation, there is no reason for us to believe they will just scratch their heads thinking what to do
they have already stared to make the shift from just copying to building on. This is happening as confidence in their own capabilities grows.
Soon they will find why do i need to make a copy of this, we have the tech to make something similar ourselves
Yes they have performed RE when their lives were at stake. No ones does illegal RE as an act of pride for their nation. It's a disgraceful practice.
What makes RE illegal, in some of the cases China has illegaly RE. This is when they sign contracts and buy item and cancel the deal when they got what they wanted.
this happened with the Su-27
But most of the time China just RE through espionage, they acquire items informally and get to work on it.
They dont hit the photocopy button as many times as you may believe, Although there are obvious examples for that.
They improve upon the things they RE, they innovate in their own way.
Positive points of RE:
Getting new Knowledge with minimal amount of Time & money spent.
Negative points of RE:
1: The knowledge is only in bits and pieces. You'll never gain the whole knowledge which is got in step by step painstaking R & D. As a result your products are likely to be Inferior to the Originals. Eg: Check out their latest(1990s) Interceptor F-7s. After 3 decades, they have yet to beat the(1960s) Mig-21Bis in speed & TWR.
2: You'd have stained your name in this disgraceful act.
3: You'd not be offered latest technology anymore by the west if you break IPR. Russians are the only exceptions here who are desperate for Cash. But even here, you'll not get stuff on the level of PAK-FA or Tu-22 or Akulas.
If you can live with that then good for you.
Honestly grow up, quote me one statement where Any official from any official organization has ever said Military RE is a disgraceful act
Reasons for reverse engineering:
* Interoperability.
* Lost documentation: Reverse engineering often is done because the documentation of a particular device has been lost (or was never written), and the person who built it is no longer available. Integrated circuits often seem to have been designed on obsolete, proprietary systems, which means that the only way to incorporate the functionality into new technology is to reverse-engineer the existing chip and then re-design it.
* Product analysis. To examine how a product works, what components it consists of, estimate costs, and identify potential patent infringement.
* Digital update/correction. To update the digital version (e.g. CAD model) of an object to match an "as-built" condition.
* Security auditing.
* Military or commercial espionage. Learning about an enemy's or competitor's latest research by stealing or capturing a prototype and dismantling it.
* Removal of copy protection, circumvention of access restrictions.
* Creation of unlicensed/unapproved duplicates.
* Academic/learning purposes.
* Curiosity
* Competitive technical intelligence (understand what your competitor is actually doing versus what they say they are doing)
* Learning: learn from others' mistakes. Do not make the same mistakes that others have already made and subsequently corrected
China with its preference over self-reliance, no concerns for sub-standard quality and no shame, is ok with the 3 negative points. India is not.
You are making generalizations not all of them are good not all are bad either. Its not one or the other, they have their own mix of quality.
I dont see anything wrong with the Type-99 tank, its widley recognized as one of the best tanks of the world.
Just harping on and saying CHina = poor quality, is an untrue justification for any argument.They Have RE tech we have not even look into buying.
This is the same BS argument the US made for Russia, on how Russian quality is always inferior.
This guy is known to make controversial statements. First it was women, then Pakistan and this.
If we just RE, we'd only be thinking in Short term, not long term. By the time we completely master RE a particular product, the world with their Genuine & experienced R & D would have already moved on to the next level. We'd have not only stained our name and prestige, but we'd have gained no true sweat and blood R & D experience.
This is because you are not thinking with an open mind, Obviously India and China Have vastly different strategic scenarios.
Obliviously with are level of cooperation and ToT we dont need to RE as much as China. Despite what you may belive we do a decent bit of RE to try and understand the products we buy beyond the ToT we get , Anything we gain through such an endeavor will be added on into our R&D.
We may not hit the Photocopy button on RE
But we do hit the Analyze button for RE, quite a few times as well.
Contrary to popular belief
Also no one can just RE everything for their Defense forces. No one. China has been making their own products for a while now, as newer and newer generations of them show up they have less and less to do with anything they were orginally bsed on and more a Chines product