Fulcrum - 1 | Chinese Copies - 0

[fulcrum]

Yeah, it is lethal, just like a Mig-21Bison is also lethal.
And saying all rockets is reverse engineered from 1940s German Tech is like saying all planes are reverse engineered from Wright brothers plane. lol

And you still harp on RE as some glorious pride of the nation. If India steals F-22 tech illegally and makes it, it would be awesome, but at the same time it would be cheap, disgraceful & outright thievery. If you can live with that twin conflicting emotions, then good for you.

Chinese are known to comprise quality for self reliance. Self reliance is their obsession. With the Chinese not releasing the specs, one can very well see what the Chinese stuff's specs will be. India is exactly the opposite. Our military is acting like spoiled brats always opting for the new shiny foreign toys and asking the poor indigenous industry to meet those standards.

Again, this is outside the scope of this thread as it mainly deals with Superiority of Mig-29 to the J-10. What Junks, Copies or Originals they might create in the future, I'll wait and find out instead of speculating in favor of them.

 

[gogbot]

Yeah, it is lethal, just like a Mig-21Bison is also lethal.
And saying all rockets is reverse engineered from 1940s German Tech is like saying all planes are reverse engineered from Wright brothers plane. lol

The point was that RE is a common occurrence, Happens all the time when the situation calls for it, And in the long run people build on RE using their own capabilities.

And you still harp on RE as some glorious pride of the nation. If India steals F-22 tech illegally and makes it, it would be awesome, but at the same time it would be cheap, disgraceful & outright thievery. If you can live with that twin conflicting emotions, then good for you.

RE is a tactic just like everything else, It has its own advantages and dis-advantages.

You want to know how the Russians got Air- to air missiles, They RE American tech, The cold war was all about staying ahead and catching up, RE was one of the ways they did.

How did the soviets make their Nuclear bomb, It Was essentially RE from their spies in the Manhattan project.

Don't give me such freaking immature statements, everyone does Reverse engineering, its as common as rain and only varies in degree's.

here is something fro you to read, so you can get down from your high horse on RE

Reverse engineering is often used by militaries in order to copy other nations' technologies, devices or information that have been obtained by regular troops in the fields or by intelligence operations. It was often used during the Second World War and the Cold War. Well-known examples from WWII and later include

* Jerry can: British and American forces noticed that the Germans had gasoline cans with an excellent design. They reverse-engineered copies of those cans. The cans were popularly known as "Jerry cans".

* Tupolev Tu-4: Three American B-29 bombers on missions over Japan were forced to land in the USSR. The Soviets, who did not have a similar strategic bomber, decided to copy the B-29. Within a few years, they had developed the Tu-4, a near-perfect copy.

* V2 Rocket: Technical documents for the V2 and related technologies were captured by the Western Allies at the end of the war. Soviet and captured German engineers had to reproduce technical documents and plans, working from captured hardware, in order to make their clone of the rocket, the R-1, which began the postwar Soviet rocket program that led to the R-7 and the beginning of the space race.

* K-13/R-3S missile (NATO reporting name AA-2 'Atoll), a Soviet reverse-engineered copy of the AIM-9 Sidewinder, made possible after a Taiwanese AIM-9B hit a Chinese MiG-17 without exploding; amazingly, the missile became lodged within the airframe, the pilot returning to base with what Russian scientists would describe as a university course in missile development.

* BGM-71 TOW Missile: In May 1975, negotiations between Iran and Hughes Missile Systems on co-production of the TOW and Maverick missiles stalled over disagreements in the pricing structure, the subsequent 1979 revolution ending all plans for such co-production. Iran was later successful in reverse-engineering the missile and are currently producing their own copy: the Toophan.

* China has reversed many examples of Western and Russian hardware, from fighter aircraft to missiles and HMMWV cars.

Reverse engineering (RE) is the process of discovering the technological principles of a device, object or system through analysis of its structure, function and operation. It often involves taking something (e.g., a mechanical device, electronic component, or software program) apart and analyzing its workings in detail to be used in maintenance, or to try to make a new device or program that does the same thing without utilizing any physical part of the original.

Reverse engineering has its origins in the analysis of hardware for commercial or military advantage

Reasons for reverse engineering:


* Interoperability.

* Lost documentation: Reverse engineering often is done because the documentation of a particular device has been lost (or was never written), and the person who built it is no longer available. Integrated circuits often seem to have been designed on obsolete, proprietary systems, which means that the only way to incorporate the functionality into new technology is to reverse-engineer the existing chip and then re-design it.

* Product analysis. To examine how a product works, what components it consists of, estimate costs, and identify potential patent infringement.

* Digital update/correction. To update the digital version (e.g. CAD model) of an object to match an "as-built" condition.

* Security auditing.

* Military or commercial espionage. Learning about an enemy's or competitor's latest research by stealing or capturing a prototype and dismantling it.

* Removal of copy protection, circumvention of access restrictions.

* Creation of unlicensed/unapproved duplicates.

* Academic/learning purposes.

* Curiosity

* Competitive technical intelligence (understand what your competitor is actually doing versus what they say they are doing)

* Learning: learn from others' mistakes. Do not make the same mistakes that others have already made and subsequently corrected

For Pete sake, they RE a Gas can, that is how common it is.

YOu think India does not do any RE ?, We do tonnes of it, with some of the things we just dont do it to the same degree as the Chinese.

Chinese are known to comprise quality for self reliance. Self reliance is their obsession. With the Chinese not releasing the specs, one can very well see what the Chinese stuff's specs will be. India is exactly the opposite. Our military is acting like spoiled brats always opting for the new shiny foreign toys and asking the poor indigenous industry to meet those standards.

The reason they are crazy about self reliance is because no one is willing to sell to them.

The Americans wont sell, The Israeli wont sell due to US. There is a EU sanction preventing any military trade with China, Russia as a regional rival is not the best source of equipment.
They have no options, except when they absolutely have to, they try to make everything them selves as no one other than Russia is even willing to sell them anything.
Its not a question of self reliance over quality, Its a situation born out of necessity.

In India Our Armed forces can vist the Arms Bazar as VIP high rollers and buy almost anything. More choice, more competition higher standards and expectations.
They want weapons they will give them the greatest advantage possible against their enemies, if indigenous products cant meet those standards they can look to foreign suppliers to satisfy their needs

Again, this is outside the scope of this thread as it mainly deals with Superiority of Mig-29 to the J-10. What Junks, Copies or Originals they might create in the future, I'll wait and find out instead of speculating in favor of them.

I already agreed with you on this point, I never once said or even suggested that the J-10 can match the Mig-29

 

[fulcrum]

You are comparing the height of the Cold war with the situation today? During the cold war the world was at the brinkmanship of Total war. In that situation survival comes first, and all others next. Today there is no immediate threat to the Chinese. Even in the Taiwan situation, the Americans don't want Taiwan to declare Independence. Now even after all those time and the current peaceful situation, China is still reverse engineering. And what's more, they are the leaders in this crap. No one does more illegal copying, stealing and reverse engineering than China. It would have been legitimate if they did it with a license, but they are also doing nothing but plain thievery in many cases now. They are addicted to it.. shameless et all.

The reason they are crazy about self reliance is because no one is willing to sell to them.

The Americans wont sell, The Israeli wont sell due to US. There is a EU sanction preventing any military trade with China, Russia as a regional rival is not the best source of equipment.
They have no options, except when they absolutely have to, they try to make everything them selves as no one other than Russia is even willing to sell them anything.
Its not a question of self reliance over quality, Its a situation born out of necessity.

What are you talking about? The Russians were offering Carrier Su-33 and Su-35BM along with the potent IRBIS radar. Mig was pitching it's top of the line Mig-31 in the previous decade, there were even rumors of Mig-29 sales pitch by Mikoyan to the Chinese. The only equipment the Russians were not willing to sell them are Strategic weapons like Tu-22 and Leasing Nuke subs. All tactical weapons were on offer. Infact, in the Su-33 deal, China shamelessly asked for only 3-4 Su-33 for "evaluation" instead of a whole deal with the russians proposed... but the Russians quickly realized it was just for their Reverse engineering and canceled that deal. You are totally clueless about the Chinese mindset!

 

[gogbot]

You are comparing the height of the Cold war with the situation today? During the cold war the world was at the brinkmanship of Total war. In that situation survival comes first, and all others next. Today there is no immediate threat to the Chinese. Even in the Taiwan situation, the Americans don't want Taiwan to declare Independence. Now even after all those time and the current peaceful situation, China is still reverse engineering. And what's more, they are the leaders in this crap. No one does more illegal copying, stealing and reverse engineering than China. It would have been legitimate if they did it with a license, but they are also doing nothing but plain thievery in many cases now. They are addicted to it.. shameless et all.



What are you talking about? The Russians were offering Carrier Su-33 and Su-35BM along with the potent IRBIS radar. Mig was pitching it's top of the line Mig-31 in the previous decade, there were even rumors of Mig-29 sales pitch by Mikoyan to the Chinese. The only equipment the Russians were not willing to sell them are Strategic weapons like Tu-22 and Leasing Nuke subs. All tactical weapons were on offer. Infact, in the Su-33 deal, China shamelessly asked for only 3-4 Su-33 for "evaluation" instead of a whole deal with the russians proposed... but the Russians quickly realized it was just for their Reverse engineering and canceled that deal. You are totally clueless about the Chinese mindset!

Face it, RE has been around for ever and all the major players have particapted in it when the time calls for it.

The Chinese are just RE maniacs, They Spend Time RE everything they can get their hands on, as a result their purchases are viewed with suspicion from the outside. They have an advantage and a dis-advantage.

I am fighting for RE not for China.

Consider this If India got its hands on a Chinese missile such as the DF-21. The first thing we would do is RE it to find out how it works, if it has interesting tech me may even absorb it into our missiles. If not though RE we know how Chinese missiles work.

Similarly if we got out hands on a F-22 we would RE, which is by no means guaranteed. And since we have no technology of our own in 5th gen fighters, what we make will essentially be RE F-22. No one is going to screen ethics over that bull.

And if you want proof.

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/iaf-vice-chiefs-latest-politics-stalls-def/544069/

Vice Chief of Air Staff Air Marshal P K Barbora asked the private defense industry to take note of the China example on reverse engineering of defense technologies. “Forget about ethics. China has done reverse engineering. Has anyone ever had the courage to ask China why are you doing it? No one cares a hoot. If you can’t do it yourself, you should know how to do reverse engineering.”

If can do and the situation calls for it, we should do it,

Now important to note i support RE as a military practice, but i share a similar disdain when it is attempted in everyday life items.

 

[Armand2REP]

China doesn't just RE, they outright steal designs they were given limited license and then turn around and call it their own. If China tries selling J-11B, they will get hell from Russia.

 

[notinlove]

The point was that RE is a common occurrence, Happens all the time when the situation calls for it, And in the long run people build on RE using their own capabilities.



RE is a tactic just like everything else, It has its own advantages and dis-advantages.

You want to know how the Russians got Air- to air missiles, They RE American tech, The cold war was all about staying ahead and catching up, RE was one of the ways they did.

How did the soviets make their Nuclear bomb, It Was essentially RE from their spies in the Manhattan project.

look buddy you obviously are living in the 20th century so i'll clear some facts for you

first of all russian's stole the tech, they didn't buy a couple of n bombs and then copied the rest like the chinese.That situation is a whole lot different from today's, first as fulcrum said in cold war survival>RE , second and most importantly even if the russians agreed to sell their souls, the americans wouldn't have given them any military tech, but that was not the case with china, everybody was selling them stuff, the USA and israelis(lavi), russia(mig,air defence etc etc).

Don't give me such freaking immature statements, everyone does Reverse engineering, its as common as rain and only varies in degree's.

here is something fro you to read, so you can get down from your high horse on RE

The reason they are crazy about self reliance is because no one is willing to sell to them.

The Americans wont sell, The Israeli wont sell due to US. There is a EU sanction preventing any military trade with China., Russia as a regional rival is not the best source of equipment.
They have no options, except when they absolutely have to, they try to make everything them selves as no one other than Russia is even willing to sell them anything.
Its not a question of self reliance over quality, Its a situation born out of necessity.

Did you ever stopped for a second to think what happened? why is nobody willing to sell stuff to them now, when everyone was cooperating with them in the 80's?
The answer is not tianamen square, that is just a cover up , the only reason is the blatant copying and cheap mentality , it is a bloody vicious circle
the chinese have dug a hole for themselves , nobody would sell them because of the RE that will lead to more RE and hence more sanctions.

You speak as if RE is the worst thing in the world, But if tomorrow India Announces its successfully RE the F-22,
I would stand there applauding that achievement. IF that were to happen hypothetically of course It would immediately establish India as one of the most prominet aero space powers yes or no.
Or will you same argument that we are just applauding copying still aplly ?

Well you would be one among the vast expanse of fanboys that would be applauding , but i sincerely doubt experts would be.

lets say Hypothetically india copies the F-22, then it would establish india as one of the most prominent Copy Cat nations also (similar to what china is today)
in effect we won't be getting any future tech, for example
1. no c-17
2.no c 130 j
3. no p8i
4. no akula
5. no mmrca
6. no barak
7.no spyder

I can go on and on but i hope you get the point.

look at china . name one next gen tech that they have . all that they have is backward technology that they scavenged off of russia in the nineties , compare this to india
1.are they getting a Potent nuclear submarine from russia?
2. is any country in the world willing to sell them AESA tech? , whereas everybody is practiacally dying to sell it to india.
3. do you see them operating exceptional transport planes like c-17?
4 do you see russia partnering them on PAK-fa?

They might be looking superior to you right now , but when defence equipment goes for a generational leap, they would be left with nothing but obsolete technology , because nobody would be selling them anything.
Do you still see RE as a sensible option?

 

[fulcrum]

Face it, RE has been around for ever and all the major players have particapted in it when the time calls for it.

The Chinese are just RE maniacs, They Spend Time RE everything they can get their hands on, as a result their purchases are viewed with suspicion from the outside. They have an advantage and a dis-advantage.

I am fighting for RE not for China.

Consider this If India got its hands on a Chinese missile such as the DF-21. The first thing we would do is RE it to find out how it works, if it has interesting tech me may even absorb it into our missiles. If not though RE we know how Chinese missiles work.

Similarly if we got out hands on a F-22 we would RE, which is by no means guaranteed. And since we have no technology of our own in 5th gen fighters, what we make will essentially be RE F-22. No one is going to screen ethics over that bull.

And if you want proof.

Yes they have performed RE when their lives were at stake. No ones does illegal RE as an act of pride for their nation. It's a disgraceful practice.

Positive points of RE:
Getting new Knowledge with minimal amount of Time & money spent.

Negative points of RE:
1: The knowledge is only in bits and pieces. You'll never gain the whole knowledge which is got in step by step painstaking R & D. As a result your products are likely to be Inferior to the Originals. Eg: Check out their latest(1990s) Interceptor F-7s. After 3 decades, they have yet to beat the(1960s) Mig-21Bis in speed & TWR.

2: You'd have stained your name in this disgraceful act.

3: You'd not be offered latest technology anymore by the west if you break IPR. Russians are the only exceptions here who are desperate for Cash. But even here, you'll not get stuff on the level of PAK-FA or Tu-22 or Akulas.

If you can live with that then good for you.

China with its preference over self-reliance, no concerns for sub-standard quality and no shame, is ok with the 3 negative points. India is not.

Vice Chief of Air Staff Air Marshal P K Barbora asked the private defense industry to take note of the China example on reverse engineering of defense technologies. “Forget about ethics. China has done reverse engineering. Has anyone ever had the courage to ask China why are you doing it? No one cares a hoot. If you can’t do it yourself, you should know how to do reverse engineering.”

This guy is known to make controversial statements. First it was women, then Pakistan and this.
If we just RE, we'd only be thinking in Short term, not long term. By the time we completely master RE a particular product, the world with their Genuine & experienced R & D would have already moved on to the next level. We'd have not only stained our name and prestige, but we'd have gained no true sweat and blood R & D experience.

lets say Hypothetically india copies the F-22, then it would establish india as one of the most prominent Copy Cat nations also (similar to what china is today)
in effect we won't be getting any future tech, for example
1. no c-17
2.no c 130 j
3. no p8i
4. no akula
5. no mmrca
6. no barak
7.no spyder

Exactly!

 

[gogbot]

Man this is going to take a while. sigh

China doesn't just RE, they outright steal designs they were given limited license and then turn around and call it their own. If China tries selling J-11B, they will get hell from Russia.[/QUOTE

Russians were pissed, China played them for a fool. when they discovered China could not get the engine working, They negotiated a deal where officially China would license produce the J-11 from Russia and Russian Firm retain control and make money of Engine sales.

It was at best a peace meal agreement to salvage the damage China had done to Russia-China ties.

look buddy you obviously are living in the 20th century so i'll clear some facts for you

first of all russian's stole the tech, they didn't buy a couple of n bombs and then copied the rest like the chinese.That situation is a whole lot different from today's, first as fulcrum said in cold war survival>RE , second and most importantly even if the russians agreed to sell their souls, the americans wouldn't have given them any military tech, but that was not the case with china, everybody was selling them stuff, the USA and israelis(lavi), russia(mig,air defence etc etc).

We have an misunderstanding.

I am not defending what is essentially stealing, The Chinese made an agreement and then they went back on them

I am defending good old fashioned RE. Where you take something your enemy or rival has then you understand and them, and negate your rivals advantage.

Did you ever stopped for a second to think what happened? why is nobody willing to sell stuff to them now, when everyone was cooperating with them in the 80's?
The answer is not tianamen square, that is just a cover up , the only reason is the blatant copying and cheap mentality , it is a bloody vicious circle
the chinese have dug a hole for themselves , nobody would sell them because of the RE that will lead to more RE and hence more sanctions.

They broke contracts, No one had any faith in them anymore, They Not only RE but also publicly made public copies.
Deals were made and the Chines broke these deals.

Well you would be one among the vast expanse of fanboys that would be a
pplauding , but i sincerely doubt experts would be.

Chinese AWACS crash in Arunachal due to a freak mishap, All hands lost. But the plane is still most intact.
Do we return the plane to China, or do we send it DRDO o be stripped apart and analyzed, Essentially RE.

We will have insight into China's latest radar equipment. and may even grab a few interesting ideas for our selves.

lets say Hypothetically india copies the F-22, then it would establish india as one of the most prominent Copy Cat nations also (similar to what china is today)
in effect we won't be getting any future tech, for example
1. no c-17
2.no c 130 j
3. no p8i
4. no akula
5. no mmrca
6. no barak
7.no spyder

I can go on and on but i hope you get the poin

t.

Well this is my fault i am using a bad example here. We have more allies, friends and Benefactors then we do enemies. Most of them include our sources of arms, it would be unwise of us to make public copies of any of their products,

most trust us enough to give us ToT,

look at china . name one next gen tech that they have . all that they have is backward technology that they scavenged off of russia in the nineties , compare this to india

They are still a developing nation, despite their RE in exchange for Alienation.
Any next gen tech from China will be at least a decade away by which time the US predicts them to be able to catch up to the big players

scavenged off of russia in the nineties , compare this to india

You want me to compare to India, Ok good sir, Other than the FGFA and F-INSAS which are still not ready what tech do we have that will give us advantage over China ?

Bhramos and BMD system can only do so much.

1.are they getting a Potent nuclear submarine from russia?

They have a massive fleet of their own Nuclear submarines,

And are building the second generation of those submarines, which are more comparable to the nuclear sub's used around the world.

Even if they are qualitatively inferior, they have a lot more subs then us.

2. is any country in the world willing to sell them AESA tech? , whereas everybody is practiacally dying to sell it to india.

They have an older version of the Phalcon radar from Israeli, RE when US intervened and canceled the trade of Phalcon radars. This all occurred a while back in the 90's.

The KJ-2000 is esentially China's Modified RE version of the Phalcon system

3. do you see them operating exceptional transport planes like c-17?

We should be making our own planes, Not boasting about transport planes we bought,

4 do you see russia partnering them on PAK-fa?

Rumor has it Russia approached India for participation the PAF-FA in the Late 90's,
we all know India was still deciding on if it should or not participate.

Russia unhappy with delays approached China to bank role the project, China said no.
They were already working on the J-XX program.

They might be looking superior to you right now , but when defence equipment goes for a generational leap, they would be left with nothing but obsolete technology , because nobody would be selling them anything.
Do you still see RE as a sensible option?

This is because you are looking at it from a static point of view.

Your RE this generation to catch up, so that when it comes to go the next generation you have a solid base in this generation to make that shift in R&D to make that jump to the next generation using lessons learned though RE.

There is no reason why The People of China cant adapt and change like any other human being. How well they ca do so is the only thing in question, China was never going to RE for ever, All the RE thys do is just stop gap to sill holes in their Defenses.

RE first requires one to understand what is being engineered. This is why China does not RE everything some things they cant engineer.

It still remains to be seen what kind of products China can come up with for the next generation, so far examples such as the T-99 are promising . But based on the RE they have done for this generation, there is no reason for us to believe they will just scratch their heads thinking what to do

they have already stared to make the shift from just copying to building on. This is happening as confidence in their own capabilities grows.

Soon they will find why do i need to make a copy of this, we have the tech to make something similar ourselves

Yes they have performed RE when their lives were at stake. No ones does illegal RE as an act of pride for their nation. It's a disgraceful practice.

What makes RE illegal, in some of the cases China has illegaly RE. This is when they sign contracts and buy item and cancel the deal when they got what they wanted.
this happened with the Su-27

But most of the time China just RE through espionage, they acquire items informally and get to work on it.
They dont hit the photocopy button as many times as you may believe, Although there are obvious examples for that.

They improve upon the things they RE, they innovate in their own way.

Positive points of RE:
Getting new Knowledge with minimal amount of Time & money spent.

Negative points of RE:
1: The knowledge is only in bits and pieces. You'll never gain the whole knowledge which is got in step by step painstaking R & D. As a result your products are likely to be Inferior to the Originals. Eg: Check out their latest(1990s) Interceptor F-7s. After 3 decades, they have yet to beat the(1960s) Mig-21Bis in speed & TWR.

2: You'd have stained your name in this disgraceful act.

3: You'd not be offered latest technology anymore by the west if you break IPR. Russians are the only exceptions here who are desperate for Cash. But even here, you'll not get stuff on the level of PAK-FA or Tu-22 or Akulas.

If you can live with that then good for you.

Honestly grow up, quote me one statement where Any official from any official organization has ever said Military RE is a disgraceful act

Reasons for reverse engineering:

* Interoperability.
* Lost documentation: Reverse engineering often is done because the documentation of a particular device has been lost (or was never written), and the person who built it is no longer available. Integrated circuits often seem to have been designed on obsolete, proprietary systems, which means that the only way to incorporate the functionality into new technology is to reverse-engineer the existing chip and then re-design it.
* Product analysis. To examine how a product works, what components it consists of, estimate costs, and identify potential patent infringement.
* Digital update/correction. To update the digital version (e.g. CAD model) of an object to match an "as-built" condition.
* Security auditing.
* Military or commercial espionage. Learning about an enemy's or competitor's latest research by stealing or capturing a prototype and dismantling it.
* Removal of copy protection, circumvention of access restrictions.
* Creation of unlicensed/unapproved duplicates.
* Academic/learning purposes.
* Curiosity
* Competitive technical intelligence (understand what your competitor is actually doing versus what they say they are doing)
* Learning: learn from others' mistakes. Do not make the same mistakes that others have already made and subsequently corrected

China with its preference over self-reliance, no concerns for sub-standard quality and no shame, is ok with the 3 negative points. India is not.

You are making generalizations not all of them are good not all are bad either. Its not one or the other, they have their own mix of quality.

I dont see anything wrong with the Type-99 tank, its widley recognized as one of the best tanks of the world.

Just harping on and saying CHina = poor quality, is an untrue justification for any argument.They Have RE tech we have not even look into buying.

This is the same BS argument the US made for Russia, on how Russian quality is always inferior.

This guy is known to make controversial statements. First it was women, then Pakistan and this.
If we just RE, we'd only be thinking in Short term, not long term. By the time we completely master RE a particular product, the world with their Genuine & experienced R & D would have already moved on to the next level. We'd have not only stained our name and prestige, but we'd have gained no true sweat and blood R & D experience.

This is because you are not thinking with an open mind, Obviously India and China Have vastly different strategic scenarios.
Obliviously with are level of cooperation and ToT we dont need to RE as much as China. Despite what you may belive we do a decent bit of RE to try and understand the products we buy beyond the ToT we get , Anything we gain through such an endeavor will be added on into our R&D.

We may not hit the Photocopy button on RE
But we do hit the Analyze button for RE, quite a few times as well.

Contrary to popular belief
Also no one can just RE everything for their Defense forces. No one. China has been making their own products for a while now, as newer and newer generations of them show up they have less and less to do with anything they were orginally bsed on and more a Chines product

 

[notinlove]

We have an misunderstanding.

I am not defending what is essentially stealing, The Chinese made an agreement and then they went back on them

I am defending good old fashioned RE. Where you take something your enemy or rival has then you understand and them, and negate your rivals advantage.

It is really hard to interpret what you are trying to convey, I am not against researching what you'r enemy has and what are its advantages but in todays world it is definitely not necessary to RE to negate those advantages especially in case of india , in the sixties russians RE'ed because they couldn't get comparable tech from anywhere , in the twenty first century India can get better tech than china so why would we go and RE and hurt our future prospects?

They broke contracts, No one had any faith in them anymore, They Not only RE but also publicly made public copies.
Deals were made and the Chines broke these deals.

Exactly that's why you shouldn't RE.

Chinese AWACS crash in Arunachal due to a freak mishap, All hands lost. But the plane is still most intact.
Do we return the plane to China, or do we send it DRDO o be stripped apart and analyzed, Essentially RE.

We will have insight into China's latest radar equipment. and may even grab a few interesting ideas for our selves.

I am not against analyzing but Analyzing is not Essentially RE , and i am not saying don't RE , but RE with some sense not like blatant RE that the chinese did. india RE'ed vidhwansak but that was another issue.

Well this is my fault i am using a bad example here. We have more allies, friends and Benefactors then we do enemies. Most of them include our sources of arms, it would be unwise of us to make public copies of any of their products,

most trust us enough to give us ToT

You know the reason to that trust don't you.

You want me to compare to India, Ok good sir, Other than the FGFA and F-INSAS which are still not ready what tech do we have that will give us advantage over China ?

Bhramos and BMD system can only do so much.

MKI>j-11
arihant is better than chinese subs.
FGFA would be ready decades before J-xx.

But this buddy is not important , what is important is the future
1.When do you expect china to field an AESA that would be comparable to any of the MMRCA members?
2. When do you expect them to make a sub of the AKULA or borey class standards?

They have a massive fleet of their own Nuclear submarines,

And are building the second generation of those submarines, which are more comparable to the nuclear sub's used around the world.

Even if they are qualitatively inferior, they have a lot more subs then us.

the point was not the capabilities of their submarine fleet , the point was that they are no where close to an akula because of their blatant copying .

We should be making our own planes, Not boasting about transport planes we bought,/quote]

We should not be sending our soldiers to their deaths by supplying them with inferior equipment, and that is the bottom line , whether that equipment is indigenous or not is secondary.

[quoteRumor has it Russia approached India for participation the PAF-FA in the Late 90's,
we all know India was still deciding on if it should or not participate.

Russia unhappy with delays approached China to bank role the project, China said no.
They were already working on the J-XX program.

Rumors and Rumors ... so they said no apparently , so where is the J-XX?

This is because you are looking at it from a static point of view.

Your RE this generation to catch up, so that when it comes to go the next generation you have a solid base in this generation to make that shift in R&D to make that jump to the next generation using lessons learned though RE.

Here is a timeline for you ill use generation one as the current generation and the move forward

Russia(take it as china's rival)----------------------------- China

Develops 1 gen ----------------------------- Doing nothing but squatting

R&D for 2 gen ----------------------------- RE'ing russian 1gen

Develops 2 gen ----------------------------- develops 1 gen that too inferior to the original

R&D 3 gen ----------------------------- RE'ing 2 russian gen

Develops 3 gen ----------------------------- develops 2 gen that too inferior

and this cycle will run continuously until they stop RE'ing and start some real R&D

There is no reason why The People of China cant adapt and change like any other human being. How well they ca do so is the only thing in question, China was never going to RE for ever, All the RE thys do is just stop gap to sill holes in their Defenses.

Absolutely they can adapt and change , but the question remains do they wanna? as for the second part , i am still to see any evidence on that one.

Soon they will find why do i need to make a copy of this, we have the tech to make something similar ourselves

Yup they will have the tech to build something similar , but would they have the tech to build something better? i doubt it.

 

[fulcrum]

But most of the time China just RE through espionage, they acquire items informally and get to work on it.
They dont hit the photocopy button as many times as you may believe, Although there are obvious examples for that.

They improve upon the things they RE, they innovate in their own way.

Yeah right... J-6, J-7, J-10, J-11 they obtained the blueprints along with the planes and mockups.
Some improvements their J-7s proved.. lol

Looks like even Mikhail Pogoysan shares my view:

"However, Pogosyan downplayed the quality of the Chinese effort, saying a copy of a copy would not be a good aircraft.

"If we speak about the copy of the airplanes, I think that in this case, the original will always be better than a slightly modified copy," he said. "The original made by the designer who developed the product is always better, and it is a better start for a new program with the original designer and developer than making a fake copy."

He said buying copies makes it difficult to overcome problems occurring during the lifetime of the aircraft, while the original developer knows from experience how to deal with these issues."

http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?i=3947599

Honestly grow up, quote me one statement where Any official from any official organization has ever said Military RE is a disgraceful act

lol.. so you want other nations officials to explicitly spit on you? Officially everyone is diplomatic, but ask them of their opinion in private. See what pogosyan said, he is basically saying they are junk compared to the original, in a diplomatic way.
This will be reflected in future deals and political posturing, but not in open humiliation. Illegal RE is a disgraceful act.

You indulge in Illegal Reverse Engineering from Blueprints or Aircrafts if:
1# Obtained from espionage. Once the host country finds out you have copied from them, brace for even more enmity. This is a good way to loose friends. If the host country is already an enemy then no harm done. Given the fact that everyone who's in the cutting edge Military field is friendly with us, expect no more MMRCA in case of Europe and the U.S, and goodbye to strategic weapons from Russia. Do you prefer damaging India's credibility, or would you prefer to invest more in R & D?

2# Aircraft lands accidentally, or crashes in your territory. In this case if the country is friendly they will ask for their aircraft back. If it's an enemy, obviously you get to keep it.

3# Sign a deal, get a few aircraft and blueprints, then cancel the deal and pay only for the few Aircrafts. The most shameless act ever, because signing a deal means the host country is essentially friendly with you which you are taking advantage of and breaking the trust.

Given the Chinese obsession over self-reliance, they are prepared to damage their relations with others. India is not.

You are making generalizations not all of them are good not all are bad either. Its not one or the other, they have their own mix of quality.

I dont see anything wrong with the Type-99 tank, its widley recognized as one of the best tanks of the world.

Just harping on and saying CHina = poor quality, is an untrue justification for any argument.They Have RE tech we have not even look into buying.

This is the same BS argument the US made for Russia, on how Russian quality is always inferior.

Aren't you making the same age old "not all of them are good not all are bad either" diplomatic statements? Most of their specs and quality is not even known and they have a track record for sub-standard quality... under this situation my statements makes more sense than yours. How do you know it's a "mix of Quality"? And the countries which buy from China are the ones who don't even have a transparent military. Although I did read about Srilankan F-7 pilots describing closing their canopy as closing their own coffin... and their new jets have visible cracks on them.

The specs of Type-99 is still not publicly available and you are saying its superior based on speculations?

And it is true that Soviet quality is inferior compared to western standards. But that is only in maintenance, and the general design which asks for quick assembly. In terms of specifications, it can match western standards, and even exceed some of them. That's why the Westerners feared them. But now the gap is evident in avionics and soft kill systems due to the death of their empire and the subsequent economic problems. But even now in hard Aircraft specs(Eg: wing loading, TWR & maneuverability), they are still on par with them or even exceed them.

The Chinese ones don't match the western equipment in either design, maintenance or Specs. It's a true definition of Inferior.

This is because you are not thinking with an open mind, Obviously India and China Have vastly different strategic scenarios.
Obliviously with are level of cooperation and ToT we dont need to RE as much as China. Despite what you may belive we do a decent bit of RE to try and understand the products we buy beyond the ToT we get , Anything we gain through such an endeavor will be added on into our R&D.

We may not hit the Photocopy button on RE
But we do hit the Analyze button for RE, quite a few times as well.

Again speculations! And even if we did, it would be minuscule so that the host country doesn't discover it. India is not a country which breaks IPR. That's why we maintain good offices with the other countries and in return ask for full ToT by paying them... to avoid indulging in this illegal RE practice and subsequently applying that knowledge which is against IPR. Also RE doesn't yield the same accuracy and level of information which a ToT gives. There is some amount of guess work involved in RE.

Contrary to popular belief
Also no one can just RE everything for their Defense forces. No one. China has been making their own products for a while now, as newer and newer generations of them show up they have less and less to do with anything they were orginally bsed on and more a Chines product

Own products? Namely? Given the fact that half of their specs of their products are under wraps, how would you know of their blueprints and origins?
Almost all of Aerospace products are confirmed copied or RE'd.

Rumor has it Russia approached India for participation the PAF-FA in the Late 90's,
we all know India was still deciding on if it should or not participate.

Russia unhappy with delays approached China to bank role the project, China said no.
They were already working on the J-XX program.

I doubt that after knowing about China's illegal RE obsession. And even if true, they might have just ripped off china by not sharing crucial info with them while taking their money. The last thing Russians need is a PAK-FA copy competing with their original.

 

[gogbot]

It is really hard to interpret what you are trying to convey, I am not against researching what you'r enemy has and what are its advantages but in todays world it is definitely not necessary to RE to negate those advantages especially in case of india , in the sixties russians RE'ed because they couldn't get comparable tech from anywhere , in the twenty first century India can get better tech than china so why would we go and RE and hurt our future prospects?


Exactly that's why you shouldn't RE.



I am not against analyzing but Analyzing is not Essentially RE , and i am not saying don't RE , but RE with some sense not like blatant RE that the chinese did. india RE'ed vidhwansak but that was another issue.

This is good old fashion RE and i see nothing wrong with it

Reverse engineering (RE) is the process of discovering the technological principles of a device, object or system through analysis of its structure, function and operation. It often involves taking something (e.g., a mechanical device, electronic component, or software program) apart and analyzing its workings in detail to be used in maintenance, or to try to make a new device or program that does the same thing without utilizing any physical part of the original.

Reverse engineering has its origins in the analysis of hardware for commercial or military advantage

arihant is better than chinese subs.

That's a bold statement to make, considering the Arihant has not even been competed yet, And the one sitting in Vizag with out a reactor is just the prototype for a class of subs that will be different.

While China is constructing its second generation of Nuclear subs, Improving on their precursors

FGFA would be ready decades before J-xx. so they said no apparently , so where is the J-XX?

This is something where Reality Bit me hard.
What is the maximum amount of time one of the most richest nations can take to build a 5th gen plane.
Say 30 years .

now China has been working on the J-XX since the late nineties, One would expect logically speaking they would have a prototype sometime this decade.

The bottom quote relates this.

Rumors and Rumors ...

The only rumor i was refering to was that India was offered the deal in the 90's.
Its well known fact that Russia offered the PAK-FA concept to both China and India back in 2001

Just take a gander at this.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/russia/pak-fa.htm

T-50 / Project 701 / PAK FA
[Perspektivnyi Aviatsionnyi Kompleks Frontovoi Aviatsyi]

The maiden flight of the T-50 / Project 701 / PAK FA, the first Russian fifth-generation fighter jet was completed successfully on Friday morning, 29 January 2010 at Komsomol'sk-na-Amur. This event is signfincant for several reasons.


1. The PAK FA is generally similar in appearance to the American F-22, though there are so many differences in detail that it is clearly an original design rather than a knock-off copy. A direct comparison with the F-22 is probably not meaningful on an unclassified basis, but Russian marketers will probably sell it as roughly equivalent in combat potential. While the F-35 is also a fifth generation stealth fighter, the low observable characteristics of this attack aircraft are said to be markedly inferior to the all-around stealth of the F-22 air supremacy fighter.

2. As of January 2010 a total production run of at least 150-200 aircraft for the Russian Air Force and 200 aircraft for the Indian Air Force was envisioned. If these production objectives are met, the United States might wind up with the world's third largest fleet of stealth fighters, after India and Russia.

3. In June 2001, India was offered 'joint development and production' of this new 5th generation fighter by Russia. Russia had been trying to sell this concept both to China and India for some time. It seems probable that China declined to participate in this project given a belief that Russia stood to gain more from Chinese participation than did China. That is, it would seem that China had determined that it could produce a superior product without Russian help. With the first flight of the Russian stealth fighter in 2010, an arguably superior Chinese steath fighter might be expected to take to the skies not too long thereafter.

4. The prospect that a country like Iran might buy even a few dozen PAK FA aircraft from Russia may well awaken interest in the F-22 in Israel, if not Saudi Arabia. The emergence of a Chinese counterpart stealth fighter may also re-awaken Japanese interest in the F-22. Production of large numbers of PAK FA by India would place Pakistan in a rather difficult position, unless it purchased similar numbers of stealth fighters from China.

The first stealth fighter, the American F-117A, was designed in the 1970s using a novel mathematical theory for determining radar cross-sections of general three-dimensional bodies, and optimizing it subject to constraints. Ben Rich, chief of Lockheed's Advanced Development Projects division (the so-called `Skunk Works'), wrote that "the Rosetta Stone breakthrough for stealth [fighter] technology" was a new theory developed by Pyotr Ya. Ufimtsev, not a new development in engineering. Although the theory was conceived at the height of cold war tensions in the mid-1970's, it was instigated by a research paper published by this Soviet radar engineer.

Ufimtsev, is known for his works in the theory of diffraction and propagation of electromagnetic and acoustic waves. Among his fundamental contributions were the the Physical Theory of Diffraction (PTD), and the discovery of new physical phenomena related to surface waves in absorbing layers. PTD is used worldwide in the design of microwave antennas and in calculations of radar cross-section of scattering objects. In particular, this theory was used in the design of American stealth aircraft nearly invisible to radar.

CIA Director William Casey, in a briefing to the Senate Armed Services Cimmittee in January 1986 stated, "We know that the Soviets are working to acquire the technology to develop aircraft and cruise missiles employing stealth features". Secretary of Defense Caspar Weinberger stated in Soviet Military Power 1987 that "evidence suggests the Soviets have made progress in developing aircraft that may have a low observable radar signature". The US Air Force started to address the needs of future fire control systems to handle the impact of Soviet stealth aircraft. In particular, contracts awarded by the US Air Force in August 1987 were to contain risk assessments addressing technology projection and Soviet airframe observability.

In early 2002 Sukhoi was chosen as prime contractor for the planned Russian fifth-generation fighter is called the PAK FA [ Perspektivnyi Aviatsionnyi Kompleks Frontovoi Aviatsyi - Future Air Complex for Tactical Air Forces]. This intermediate class twin-engined fighter was to be larger than a MiG-29 and smaller than a Su-27. The new fighter was said to be intended to be about the same size as the US F-35 JSF, with a primary air superiority mission and ground attack and reconnaissance being secondary missions.

The aircraft was to feature a long combat radius, supersonic cruise speed, low radar cross section, supermaneuverability, and the ability to make short takeoffs and landings. In accordance with the technical requirements, the PAK FA was to have a normal takeoff weight of 20 tons, which is close to the average normal takeoff weight of the two American airplanes, the F-35 JSF (17.2 tons) and the F-22 (24 tons). The new fighter (a medium version) was to have a traditional wing form, though the experience gathered as a result of Berkut's test flights will be taken in consideration when designing the fighter. It was supposed that it was to be created using the Stealth technology, and equipped with two AL-41F engines by the Saturn scientific and industrial enterprise, a radar system with an active phased array to be produced by the Fazatron-NIIR corporation, and high-precision weapons.

Although T-50 specifications remain classified, fragmentary data on its engines imply that this heavy-duty fighter will have a take-off weight of more than 30 metric tons and will be close in dimension to the well-known Sukhoi Su-27 Flanker. The new fighter's exterior was designed using Stealth technology, also known as LO technology (low observable technology).

Prototypes and initial production aircraft will feature many elements from the Su-35. The aircraft will be equipped with the same engines -- two AL41F1s, an improved version of the AL-41F on the Su-27, delivering 142kN (vs 123kN). A future engine will not be ready until 2015. The combat aircraft is fitted with 117S (upgraded AL-31) turbofan engines from the Russian aircraft engine manufacturer Saturn.

The new fighter's control systems, avionics and cockpit will be designed on the basis of the Su-35BM's systems, but not the radar. The N035 Irbis radar, a passive electronic scanning design derived from the Bars radar on the Su-30MKI, is being developed by the Tikhomirov Niip institute for the Su-35. The Tikhomirov Institute of Instrument Design, which developed the Irbis radar for the Su-35BM Flanker, has been working on the T-50 radar, which will feature an active antenna system, including three X-band radars (forward and side-looking), in addition to a ventral Ku-band radar including IFF and electronic warfare subsystems. The technical design was approved in December 2005, so that the radar will probably be ready before series production gets under way.

The aircraft of the fifth generation is equipped with the fundamentally new complex of avionics, that integrates the function “electronic pilot”, and by promising phased-array radar. This to a considerable degree reduces load on the pilot and makes it possible to be concentrated on the fulfillment of tactical missions. Onboard equipment of new aircraft permits implementation of the exchange of data in the regime of real time both with the ground-based systems for control and inside the air group. The application of composite materials and innovation technologies, the aerodynamic layout of aircraft, measure for reduction in distinctness of engine ensure the unprecedented low level of radar, optical and infrared distinctness. This makes it possible to considerably increase combat effectiveness in the work both along the air and ground targets, at any time twenty-four hours, in the simple and adverse weather conditions.

The PAK FA can carry either eight next-generation air-to-air R-77 missiles, or two large controllable anti-ship bombs weighing 1,500 kg each. The new jet can also carry two long-range missiles developed by the Novator Bureau which can hit targets within a 400 kilometer range. The jet can use a take-off strip of just 300-400 meters, and perform sustained supersonic flight at speeds over 2,000 km/h, including repeated in-flight refueling. The highly-maneuverable plane has a range of about 5,500 kilometers. The fifth-generation fighter is equipped with advanced avionics to combine an automatic flight control system and a radar locator with a phased array antenna.

In comparison with the fighters of the previous generations, the PAC[FA] possesses a number of unique special features, combining in itself the functions of impact aircraft and fighter. The fifth generation aircraft is equipped with the fundamentally new complex of avionics, that integrates the function “electronic pilot”, and by a promising phased-array radar. This to a considerable degree reduces load on the pilot and makes it possible to be concentrated on the fulfillment of tactical missions. Onboard equipment of new aircraft permits implementation of the exchange of data in the regime of real time both with the ground-based systems for control and inside the air group. The application of composite materials and innovation technologies, the aerodynamic layout of aircraft, measure for reduction in distinctness of engine ensure the unprecedented low level of radar, optical and infrared distinctness. This makes it possible to considerably increase combat effectiveness in the work both along the air and ground targets, at any time twenty-four hours, in the simple and adverse weather conditions.

"This is the great success of Russian science and design thought. After this reaching stands the cooperation more than hundred subcontracting enterprises, our strategic partners. Program PAC[FA] derives Russian aircraft construction and adjacent branches to the qualitatively new technological level. These aircraft, together with the modernized aviation complexes of the fourth generation will determine the potential of Russian VVS during the next decades. Into the plans of company “Sukhoi” enters further development of program PAC[FA], at which we will work together with the Indian partners. I am confident, that our joint project will exceed western analogs on the criterion cost- effectiveness and will make it possible not only to strengthen the defense power VVS of Russia and India, but also will be occupied worthy place on the World Market”, said the Director-General of joint stock company “company “Sukhoi” Mikhail [Pogosyan], commenting on the beginning of flight tests.

But this buddy is not important , what is important is the future
1.When do you expect china to field an AESA that would be comparable to any of the MMRCA members?
2. When do you expect them to make a sub of the AKULA or borey class standards?

sometime this decade easily

same goes for India.

the point was not the capabilities of their submarine fleet , the point was that they are no where close to an akula because of their blatant copying .

Tell me what their new Nuclear submarines are a copy of.

Only their diesel electrics are a copy of old soviet design with modern modifications

Here is a timeline for you ill use generation one as the current generation and the move forward

Russia(take it as china's rival)----------------------------- China

Develops 1 gen ----------------------------- Doing nothing but squatting

R&D for 2 gen ----------------------------- RE'ing russian 1gen

Develops 2 gen ----------------------------- develops 1 gen that too inferior to the original

R&D 3 gen ----------------------------- RE'ing 2 russian gen

Develops 3 gen ----------------------------- develops 2 gen that too inferior

and this cycle will run continuously until they stop RE'ing and start some real R&D

When i used a bad example i admitted it, Its time for you to do the same.

China as it exists today was created in the 1950's . before then it was a country of poverty and under development worse than India, It was fighting a civil was for more than 20 years, A civil war which considered WW2 to be only a break in their conflict.
In short The looser of that war became Taiwan and the Victor Became China.

For Thousands of Years China wealth and prosperity paralleled that of India's.
that remained the same up to the 80's and will remain the same this decade as well

China never participated in the development of 1st generation Aircraft, Nor did it RE any. It was poor and fighting a desperate civil war.

The Chinese Air force flew foreign aircraft

China as communist state received on of the new at the time state of the art Mig-21's from the USSR. When Ties between china and USSR fell apart after Stalin's death China broke of relations, Then it detonated its nuclear bomb in 1964. With the ideology to establish it self as the no.1 communist state.

As you can imagine a poor nation, much like India in the 60's can hardly ever manage to produce a jet engine aircraft like the Mig-21. This was the era when jet engines were new and only hand full of models existed. China made copies of the Mig-21.

And simultaneously established its own Indigenous weapons development capabilities.
Since their armed forces was essentially all soviet origin, Their only choice as communist state was to mimic their Soviet Brother.

Then came Mao's cultural revolution, Preventing any Chinese attempts at 3rd generation designs. Only modest attempts were made. After Mao's death and the end of the cultural revolution in the 70's, The China we know today was created, It liberalized its economy, opened up to tourism.
In fact rumor has it work on the J-10 actually actually began as far back as the 1970's evolving from a 3rd generation aircraft to 4th generation as China tried to get to grips with the technologies.

China once again initiated its RE to catch up to Western Rivals. But using its new found wealth, It could also fund more ambitious Indigenous products are well not saying it went smoothly, Other wise China would use those instead of what they RE.

China has the resources and has been trying to catch up since the 90's in their own indigenous developments apart from RE.
The fruits of which they will see soon enough.

They may not be getting as much foreign help like us to speed things up but that's why they RE as a substitute to that.

Absolutely they can adapt and change , but the question remains do they wanna? as for the second part , i am still to see any evidence on that one.

That's because you have reached a false conclusion and are not looking at all the weapons China is using, looking at the trends in the types weapons they are getting.

The weapons they have in development.

Just take a peep, and you will find your answer.

They have been coming up with their own flavor.

Yup they will have the tech to build something similar , but would they have the tech to build something better? i doubt it.

You seem to think India has a superiority over China and this is a one horse race, I can tell you it is cut throat. China is rival to be respected, least we underestimate them.

China is expanding its capabilities day by day. Weather we like it or not They will have things like the J-XX nearing the end of the decade. They have come a long way from the Photocopy Machine they used to be. They are inching closer and closer to becoming a serious counter weight to America.

India is building new capabilities day by day, Weather China likes it or not its going to face competition in Areas it did not expect.
we are not the the institution of delays and Cost overruns, we used to be. We are itching closer and closer to becoming a global powerhouse.

 

[Sam2012]

Interesting thread , Chinese claimed they have gained lock on with Vietnam Su-30 every time they encountered without being spot now i doubt this news

Mig-29 whipping J-10 , Fighter of 80's good enough for so called 4.5 generation J-10 very sad

Deliver to J-10B to pakis they will soon claim PAF has gained lock on againt F-22 raptor & Sukhoi FGFA

Both brother & sister are masters of hypeing things keep it up:thumb: