French MICA (EM&IR) Missile vs Israeli Derby (EM) & Python 5 (IR) Missile

WHICH MISSILES GOING TO BE MORE EFFECTIVE IN FUTURE WAR FOR IND AIR FORCE IN FUTURE


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Drsomnath999

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in 2014 an AA version of David sling will be available (160 km range ultra maneuverability dual seeker ir image and radar )
made to hunt cruse missiles and stealth fighters
wow thats great !!!

well sir earliear US were also experimenting with dual seekers like I.R image & radar ,but was it successful???

also Chinese are also experimenting with dual seekers in PL 12B/SD 10B but they are using ACTIVE /PASSIVE radar seeker combining not IR seeker.

So sir which one do u think would be more effective
missile with ( IR seeker + RADAR seeker) or missile with ( ACTIVE + PASSIVE radar seeker) ???
 

Armand2REP

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Then there won't be a need for the 60Km range during tail chase. It is difficult for the missile to chase a highly maneuverable target.
The missile doesn't start maneuvering until it goes active. If the target started earlier it is just wasting time to get out of the kill envelope. MICA is powered to 60km but it still has plenty of momentum to go another 10-20km.
 

p2prada

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The missile doesn't start maneuvering until it goes active. If the target started earlier it is just wasting time to get out of the kill envelope. MICA is powered to 60km but it still has plenty of momentum to go another 10-20km.
During a tail chase, the missile's range is far lower than what is projected in brochures. Brochures only give head on stats unless it is mentioned specifically. The tail chase range for R-77 with maneuvers is less than 20Km. What makes you think MICA can magically out range R-77 in a similar circumstance. This is because the missile needs to fly at full speed and not just cruise towards the target at Mach 2.5.

Missiles don't fly straight, they maneuver. Missiles, primarily IR missiles, try to predict the path of the target aircraft and try to reach that spot earlier than the target. None of that fancy maneuvering from Star Wars or Behind Enemy Lines. What I mean is they don't have to chase aircraft at their Six 'O Clock to get the work done. However they need to be at their fastest possible speed.
 

death.by.chocolate

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David sling is all Israeli only the lunch capsule is American (free cash )
Nothing is 'all Israeli' :rolleyes:... The missile for the David's Sling system is called 'Stunner' it is co-developed by Rafael and Raytheon. As for free cash, you have it backward Rafael paid Raytheon to develop this missile for them.


Raytheon will use the funding for fabrication of the missile's subsystem hardware including safety devices and guidance electronics. The new contract will also fund flight tests and low-rate initial production of the Stunner interceptor.
Raytheon Awarded $30 Million for New Missile Defense Interceptor - Jan 9, 2012


You seem to suggest Israel does not need the US, that is great to hear. The US can put all the 'free cash' (my tax dollars) Israel does not need to better use.
 

Drsomnath999

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It doesn't have the range to powered flight. Its burn duration is shorter.
but MICA & DERBY has almost same range at best (19-20 difference) i assume . well how can u so accurately say it's burn duration shorter compare to
MICA
 

Drsomnath999

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It doesn't have the range to powered flight. Its burn duration is shorter.
but MICA & DERBY has almost same range at best (19-20 difference) i assume . well how can u so accurately say it's burn duration shorter compare to
MICA
 

p2prada

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Nothing is 'all Israeli' :rolleyes:... The missile for the David's Sling system is called 'Stunner' it is co-developed by Rafael and Raytheon. As for free cash, you have it backward Rafael paid Raytheon to develop this missile for them.

Raytheon Awarded $30 Million for New Missile Defense Interceptor - Jan 9, 2012

You seem to suggest Israel does not need the US, that is great to hear. The US can put all the 'free cash' (my tax dollars) Israel does not need to better use.
I don't think $30Million will simply cut it for that system. EADS was awarded a $20Million contract to fix N-LCA's undercarriage. It does not mean the LCA is theirs now.

Also I don't think PL ever said Israel does not need the US.

Btw, there are certain parts in the Agni V(recently fired) which were imported from the US. That does not make the missile American either. Earlier such parts were bought from Russia, France or the black market. I guess the US parts were cheaper. Economics plays a part here.
 

death.by.chocolate

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I don't think $30Million will simply cut it for that system. EADS was awarded a $20Million contract to fix N-LCA's undercarriage. It does not mean the LCA is theirs now.

Also I don't think PL ever said Israel does not need the US.

Btw, there are certain parts in the Agni V(recently fired) which were imported from the US. That does not make the missile American either. Earlier such parts were bought from Russia, France or the black market. I guess the US parts were cheaper. Economics plays a part here.
The 30.2 million $ I posted earlier is just a small part of a multi-year contract for Stunner signed in 2012. In 2009, Rafael signed a 100m$ contract with Raytheon for 'stunner'; the first contract was signed in 2006, and Raytheon's revenue from this multi-year Rafael contract for 'stunner /David's sling' is easily over half a billion dollars.

I doubt Agni V has US components, if it does, then in all likelihood India could not source these from France or Russia. India has amply demonstrated its propensity to procure more expensive less capable hardware to avoid US systems.
 

p2prada

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The 30.2 million $ I posted earlier is just a small part of a multi-year contract for Stunner signed in 2012. In 2009, Rafael signed a 100m$ contract with Raytheon for 'stunner'; the first contract was signed in 2006, and Raytheon's revenue from this multi-year Rafael contract for 'stunner /David's sling' is easily over half a billion dollars.
$30 Million, $100 Million, even $500 Million is too less for a missile of this caliber, especially looking at American costs. More believable if we were talking about China.

Cost of developing the Patriot alone was $8Billion as of 2003. I only wonder what the cost may be today.

While actual funding may have come from the US, a $500 Million contract is a pittance.

Look. I don't know exact statistics of the program, but I can say Raytheon may have been a developer and perhaps a system integrator of some specific components it was charged to make for IAI. Nothing to indicate the seeker, design and propulsion system is from Raytheon.

If Raytheon did manage to do what you say with just $500 Million, then it is fairly impossible to believe.

if it does, then in all likelihood India could not source these from France or Russia.
Of course, only the almighty US has the technology to supply our puny missile development program. France and Russia(with a superior missile development program) are unable to help us with this because they are backward old bats living in caves.

India can source anything from anywhere today. US has opened up it's entire market to us. Of course, we don't know the truth, but we can extrapolate that the components were tendered, and this tender, the US won.

India has amply demonstrated its propensity to procure more expensive less capable hardware to avoid US systems.
No. It seems you are pissed off that SH lost in the Indian MRCA. This statement was entirely not needed in this discussion. Go check any open tender competition you want. The SH was always at the bottom of the table among all twin engine jets in all the competitions since Korea's FX competition in 2002. Dunno what you are pissed off about, that we chose the Rafale or rejected SH. Till date, no American jet was ever at the top of the table since 2002, including the upgraded F-15E. You are finding fault at the wrong place.
 

ash2win

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Can someone please explain why MOD cleared 950 million euros (about Rs 6,600 crore, 1.25 billion $ ) for 490 Mica infrared and radar-controlled air-to-air missiles
while in 2006 PAF ordered 500 AIM-120C-5 AMRAAM missiles for $650 million.
even there is 6 years gap it doesnt make sense.

Thanks in advance
 

p2prada

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Can someone please explain why MOD cleared 950 million euros (about Rs 6,600 crore, 1.25 billion $ ) for 490 Mica infrared and radar-controlled air-to-air missiles
while in 2006 PAF ordered 500 AIM-120C-5 AMRAAM missiles for $650 million.
even there is 6 years gap it doesnt make sense.

Thanks in advance
Inflation and cost of labour(say 20-30%) and the fact that the C-5s are less capable than the latest MICA RF.
 

Drsomnath999

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the fact that the C-5s are less capable than the latest MICA RF.
plz dont get me wrong ,i am not paki supporter but dont do u think that ur becoming too much biased & nationalistic
 

p2prada

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Even Derby is superior to the Aim 120C-5 outside of range.
 
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death.by.chocolate

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@p2prada
Korea 2002? You're short on facts as usual the F/A-18 E/F was first cleared for export in 2005 - it did not participate in the Korea competition. So far, the F/A-18 E/F has competed in India, Brazil and Japan. It hardly matters to me if India buys American arms or if American fighters / weapons are at the bottom every Indian evaluation, I was alluding to an established procurement pattern of the Indian MoD. India limits its procurement of offensive American weapons to niche weapons via FMS - weapons that is not available elsewhere.

As for Raytheon and the 'Stunner' 500 million dollars is a lot of money for R&E on a missile. You can't compare Patriot to the Stunner, the 8 billion dollars you refer to is the development cost for more than the missile. A comparable program is AGM-84 or Harpoon missile which cost 300m$ to develop.

Bottom line, regardless of what people like you and pack leader say the reality is Israel depends on US technology and funding across the board.
 

p2prada

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seriously ?????
The Aim-120 C-7 compares well with MICA. Both have jamming detection capability. FYI, Derby and C-5 do not have home on jam capability.

The C-5 was configured in 1996 and produced in 2000. MICA has been upgraded after that and is more or less equivalent to the C-7(2006) and perhaps even the C-8(also called Aim-120D).

The Aim-120 C-5 is slower than both Derby and MICA. Only range is a problem and the C-5's range is quite significant. But the platforms matter too. At BVR engagement ranges of 30Km and lesser, both Derby and MICA will show superior performance to Aim 120C-5.

MICA is capable of 180 degree over the shoulder shots. In 2007 tests, the MICA EM fired from one Rafale managed to track and engage a target behind the first Rafale while a second Rafale provided coordinates. It was a BVR kill. C-5 is nowhere close to this capability. I am not sure if Derby is capable of the same.
 

Drsomnath999

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FYI, Derby and C-5 do not have home on jam capability.
it has
i quote
The AIM-120 also has a "home-on-jam" guidance mode to counter electronic jamming. With its sophisticated avionics, high closing speed, and excellent end-game maneuverability, chances of escape from AMRAAM are minimal. Upon intercept an active-radar proximity fuze detonates the 40-pound high-explosive warhead to destroy the target. At closer ranges AMRAAM guides itself all the way using its own radar, freeing the launch aircraft to engage other targets.
AIM-120 AMRAAM Slammer



The Aim-120 C-5 is slower than both Derby and MICA. Only range is a problem and the C-5's range is quite significant. But the platforms matter too. At BVR engagement ranges of 30Km and lesser, both Derby and MICA will show superior performance to Aim 120C-5.
no it has same mach 4 speed but with larger motor for increased range .
The AIM-120C-5 is a C-4 with a slightly larger motor in the new WPU-16/B propulsion section and a new shorter WCU-28/B control section with compressed electronics and ECCM upgrades.

MICA is capable of 180 degree over the shoulder shots.
that may be for IR variant not EM variant in bvr range but not at the same BVR range of RF version of MICA

In 2007 tests, the MICA EM fired from one Rafale managed to track and engage a target behind the first Rafale while a second Rafale provided coordinates. It was a BVR kill. C-5 is nowhere close to this capability. I am not sure if Derby is capable of the same.
but amraam is the most combat proven BVR in history do u have any doubt on that
 

p2prada

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@p2prada
Korea 2002? You're short on facts as usual the F/A-18 E/F was first cleared for export in 2005 - it did not participate in the Korea competition.
Ah! My bad. I guess it was the F-15. Now why would Boeing pitch in with 2 platforms. But we can say for sure that the F-15 was below Rafale and EF too. This according to the Koreans.

So far, the F/A-18 E/F has competed in India, Brazil and Japan.
You missed Malaysia, where SH lost to Su-30MKM. We have had their own officials who said even an upgraded SH with AESA will not match the MKM in many capabilities. However they did say that they still need a strike fighter like the SH and recently announced a second MRCA competition. Then there is Denmark, who chose F-35 over SH. They gave Rafale the next highest score. Greece is an old entrant and is still ongoing. UAE is a new entrant, but I am quite sure they will go for Rafale like Brazil will.

It hardly matters to me if India buys American arms or if American fighters / weapons are at the bottom every Indian evaluation, I was alluding to an established procurement pattern of the Indian MoD. India limits its procurement of offensive American weapons to niche weapons via FMS - weapons that is not available elsewhere.
While it may be true for large platforms. It does not have to be true for less critical parts, like missile components for our missile program, which does not compare to equivalent programs in the US, in Russia and in France. You can say, for our needs, all three countries can deliver what we want.

Btw, Apache was won in a proper MRCA type tender where the Russian heli lost on 20 technical points. So, come up with better excuses.

As for Raytheon and the 'Stunner' 500 million dollars is a lot of money for R&E on a missile. You can't compare Patriot to the Stunner, the 8 billion dollars you refer to is the development cost for more than the missile. A comparable program is AGM-84 or Harpoon missile which cost 300m$ to develop.
This is a PAC-3 equivalent. Raytheon is building the missile firing unit and the launcher. That may have come up to $500Million. The missile's design, seeker, propulsion, radar, support structure etc is all Israel's work. It is obvious this will go into a few Billions to develop. And no, this isn't just a missile, it is an entire SAM system with it's own battery, command & control and support structure.

Bottom line, regardless of what people like you and pack leader say the reality is Israel depends on US technology and funding across the board.
It is really simple. The missile may have been built on a certain level of US aid with a clause that some American company should be given some work. So, Raytheon won the missile firing assembly and logistics contract. That's about it. Israel may have depended on American technology and will depend on core American technology in the future as well. But when it comes to systems they are masters in, they have a thing or two to teach the Americans too. Case in point, do you believe the JHMCS is an American system? Answer: No.

The Israelis are working on Barak 8 system(equivalent to evolved sea sparrow) using Indian funds. The Russians, probably, have half their aerospace industry working on Indian money as well. You won't hear us singing about it. It is merely good business. They design, we build in our own country. Win win for both. It is your problem that you aid Israel.
 

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