France, Russia, and the Mistral Saga

pmaitra

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 10, 2009
Messages
33,262
Likes
19,594
Re: Firm Truce in Ukraine Needed for Mistral Delivery to Russia: Paris

That's not what you claimed originally. What you said was that the Ruble devaluation has contributed to massive losses all across the EU, which is in the past tense. You were not talking about future economic fall-out from inability of Russians to buy imported European products (right now the opposite is happening with Russians panic buying on big ticket imported products before Ruble continue to fall any further).

This is your original post BTW:
Indeed. VolksWagen had to shut down its plant in Russia due to lack of demand. So, they made an investment, and now are not able to sell their cars, which would presumably have had German made components. Who is the bigger loser? This shutting down of the plan is indeed in the past tense. Just one example.

Even this excerpt from one of the most rabid anti-Russia myth-peddling websites, the New York Trash, admits the following:
Exports to Russia fell 22 percent through October compared with the same period a year earlier.
 

asianobserve

Tihar Jail
Banned
Joined
May 5, 2011
Messages
12,846
Likes
8,556
Country flag
Re: Firm Truce in Ukraine Needed for Mistral Delivery to Russia: Paris

Indeed. VolksWagen had to shut down its plant in Russia due to lack of demand. So, they made an investment, and now are not able to sell their cars, which would presumably have had German made components. Who is the bigger loser? This shutting down of the plan is indeed in the past tense. Just one example.
Definitely Russia! As of now the Ruble is the worst performing currency in the World and inflation is double digits and rising. The Russian economy is on the verge of recession.

These European companies are multinationals with operations spanning all the continents. Their Russia operations, no doubt profitable, will not bankrupt these companies. But as the Ruble slides Russians go out to buy foreign currencies and big ticket products.

Shopping in Russia Just Got Really Weird - Businessweek
Special Report: For many Russians, a growing list of problems – but not with Putin | Reuters

The Western companies that will be adversely affected by the sanctions are those directly in the sectors under sanctions. But as I said they are not in any mortal danger. Instead, Russian factories of Western companies will close down as it will be very expensive for them to import their parts. They will simply relocate their productions to other countries and export their products to Russia (if they are not prohibited by sanctions).

In the process of closing down factories in Russia, a lot of Russian workers employed by these companies will get laid off. If this is good to you then I don't what to make of your mind anymore...


Even this excerpt from one of the most rabid anti-Russia myth-peddling websites, the New York Trash, admits the following:
And you think this is good for Russia? Think again.
 

Ray

The Chairman
Professional
Joined
Apr 17, 2009
Messages
43,132
Likes
23,835
What is worrisome is that the unfair and very debilitating Treaty of Versailles saw a resurgent Germany that spurred the Second WW.

Russians are equally jingoistic as the German, even though they may not be equally industrious as the German.

Russia had become dependant on Europe. Now they will have to rely on their own guts and wits.

The Russian Bear is a resurgent avatar is not quite a pleasant thought.

While there possibly be no war as such since the MAD will prevail, but it could lead to a real bitterly cold Cold War.

China will be the winner big time in all departments and that would lead greater woes for the West and others.

U.S.-Russia standoff has global repercussions

For a generation, relations between the United States and Russia were essentially about history. Since the Cold War's end, Russia had become increasingly peripheral to the U.S. and much of the rest of the world, its international importance and power seemingly consigned to the past. That era has now ended.

To be sure, the current conflict between the U.S. and Russia over Ukraine is a mismatch, given the disparity in power between the two sides. Russia is not, and cannot even pretend to be, a contender for world domination. Unlike the Soviet Union, it is not driven by some universal ideology, does not lead a bloc of states ruled by the same ideology, and has few formal allies (all of which are small). Yet the U.S.-Russia conflict matters to the rest of the world.

It obviously matters most to Ukraine, part of which has become a battlefield. The future of Europe's largest country — its shape, political order, and foreign relations — depends very much on how the U.S.-Russian struggle plays out.

It may well be that Ukraine becomes internally united, genuinely democratic, and firmly tied to European and Atlantic institutions; that it is generously helped by these institutions and prospers as a result; and that it evolves into an example for Russians across the border to follow. It may also be that at the end of the day, several Ukraines emerge, heading in different directions.

Ukraine's fate, in turn, matters to other countries in Eastern Europe, particularly Moldova and Georgia. Both, like Ukraine, have signed association agreements with the European Union; and both will have to walk a fine line to avoid becoming battleground states between Russia and the West. Similarly, Russia's nominal partners in its Eurasian Union project — Armenia, Belarus, Kazakhstan, and Kyrgyzstan — will need to balance carefully between Russia, their nominal "strategic" ally, and the U.S., which holds the keys to the international political and economic system.

What happens to Ukraine matters to Western and Central Europe, too. Even though an enduring military standoff along NATO's eastern border with Russia would pale in comparison to the Cold War confrontation with the Warsaw Pact, Europe's military security can no longer be taken for granted.

And as security worries on the continent rise, EU-Russia trade will fall. As a result of U.S. pressure, the EU will eventually buy less gas and oil from Russia, and the Russians will buy fewer manufactured goods from their neighbors. Distrust between Russia and Europe will become pervasive. The idea of a common space from Lisbon to Vladivostok will be buried. Instead, the EU and the U.S. will be aligned even more closely, both within a reinvigorated NATO and by means of the Trans-Atlantic Trade and Investment Partnership.

Japan has a stake as well: Its decision to join the U.S.-led sanctions against Russia means forgoing plans to build a solid relationship with the Kremlin to balance China in Asia. The U.S.-Japan alliance will be reaffirmed, as will Japan's position in that alliance. In a somewhat similar way, South Korea will need to bow before U.S. demands to limit its trade with Russia, potentially eliciting a less cooperative Kremlin stance on the divided Korean Peninsula.

As a result, the U.S.-Russia conflict will probably lead to a strengthening of America's position vis-à-vis its European and Asian allies, and a much less friendly environment for Russia anywhere in Eurasia. Even Russia's nominal allies will have to look over their shoulder to the U.S., and its forays into Latin America and enclaves of influence in the Middle East will be of little importance.

There is only one exception to this pattern of heightened U.S. influence: China. The sharp reduction of Russia's economic ties with the advanced countries leaves China as the only major economy outside of the U.S.-led sanctions regime. This increases China's significance to Russia, promising to enable the Chinese to gain wider access to Russian energy, other natural resources, and military technology.

China will study U.S. strategy toward Russia and draw its own conclusions. But China has no interest in Russia succumbing to U.S. pressure, breaking apart or becoming a global power. Its interests are in keeping Russia as its stable strategic hinterland and base for natural resources.

Chinese support for Russia to stand up to the U.S. would be a novelty in world affairs. Many do not view it as a realistic scenario; Russia, after all, would find an alliance with China too heavy to bear, and, whatever their ideology or whoever their leaders, Russians remain European.

That may be true. Yet it is also true that one of the most revered Russian heroes from medieval history, Prince St. Alexander Nevsky, successfully fought Western invaders while remaining loyal to the Mongol khans.

There is no question that Russia will pay a price for its actions in Ukraine. The question for the U.S. and its allies is whether exacting that price will come with a price of its own.

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/opinion...andoff-has-global-repercussions/#.VKo7DyuUegY
 
Last edited:

asianobserve

Tihar Jail
Banned
Joined
May 5, 2011
Messages
12,846
Likes
8,556
Country flag
I'm not too worried at the thought of a resurgent bear. There's not much of a resurgent bear judging from the turnout of the economic war from the Ukraine crisis (Putin is the emperor in his new clothes here). What we are seeing in Ukraine is the dying gasp of an empire that began its terminal decline after the collapse of the USSR. Putin is a victim of his own fantasy of grandeur. Now the real giant (West) has called his bluff.
 

Ray

The Chairman
Professional
Joined
Apr 17, 2009
Messages
43,132
Likes
23,835
I'm not too worried at the thought of a resurgent bear. There's not much of a resurgent bear judging from the turnout of the economic war from the Ukraine crisis (Putin is the emperor in his new clothes here). What we are seeing in Ukraine is the dying gasp of an empire that began its terminal decline after the collapse of the USSR. Putin is a victim of his own fantasy of grandeur. Now the real giant (West) has called his bluff.
Russia was also a gasping empire before the Russian Revolution and who thought that such a downtrodden, poor country could become a superpower?

Look at an agrarian, feudalism ridden, and poor China at one time and today?

I never underestimate any country or people.
 

asianobserve

Tihar Jail
Banned
Joined
May 5, 2011
Messages
12,846
Likes
8,556
Country flag
Russia was also a gasping empire before the Russian Revolution and who thought that such a downtrodden, poor country could become a superpower?

Look at an agrarian, feudalism ridden, and poor China at one time and today?

I never underestimate any country or people.

Russia will never emulate China. It is too cold, far away, in a not so economically vibrant neighborhood, underpopulated, too drunk, power and money closely controlled by too few, and too corrupt.

China became what it is now because the US was too willing to invest on it. I don;t see this happening to Russia.
 

Mad Indian

Proud Bigot
Senior Member
Joined
Jan 27, 2012
Messages
12,835
Likes
7,762
Country flag
Russia will never emulate China. It is too cold, far away, in a not so economically vibrant neighborhood, underpopulated, too drunk, power and money closely controlled by too few, and too corrupt.

China became what it is now because the US was too willing to invest on it. I don;t see this happening to Russia.
Did USSR become a superpower because US was willing then?
 

apple

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 15, 2011
Messages
612
Likes
174
Definitely Russia! As of now the Ruble is the worst performing currency in the World and inflation is double digits and rising. The Russian economy is on the verge of recession.

These European companies are multinationals with operations spanning all the continents. Their Russia operations, no doubt profitable, will not bankrupt these companies. But as the Ruble slides Russians go out to buy foreign currencies and big ticket products.

The Western companies that will be adversely affected by the sanctions are those directly in the sectors under sanctions. But as I said they are not in any mortal danger. Instead, Russian factories of Western companies will close down as it will be very expensive for them to import their parts. They will simply relocate their productions to other countries and export their products to Russia (if they are not prohibited by sanctions).

In the process of closing down factories in Russia, a lot of Russian workers employed by these companies will get laid off. If this is good to you then I don't what to make of your mind anymore...

And you think this is good for Russia? Think again.
Russia doesn't do recessions, it does economic meltdowns. Would disagree with you about the amount of damage the collapse of the Russian economy will do to Europe.

I'm not too worried at the thought of a resurgent bear. There's not much of a resurgent bear judging from the turnout of the economic war from the Ukraine crisis (Putin is the emperor in his new clothes here). What we are seeing in Ukraine is the dying gasp of an empire that began its terminal decline after the collapse of the USSR. Putin is a victim of his own fantasy of grandeur. Now the real giant (West) has called his bluff.
The USSR was never all that to begin with. At least it wasn't near i.e. post 1980, the end.

While a large part of Russia's economic important to Europe is Putin's cronies spending their ill gotten baksheesh in London, Paris and Milan, which wont be affected so much when Russia goes belly up, there are legitimate business links between Russia and the EU. Although, I suppose in the wider scheme of things, cheaper energy prices for Europe should balance (/or outweigh) loss of trade with Russia.
 
Last edited:

asianobserve

Tihar Jail
Banned
Joined
May 5, 2011
Messages
12,846
Likes
8,556
Country flag
Did USSR become a superpower because US was willing then?
The USSR became a superpower by expanding and annexing other countries (territories, people and resources of other countries). It also had a powerful ideology in communism on its rise to superpowerdom. Now Russia has neither satellites (or countries forcibly held under its sphere like POland, etc.) and ideology. It's population is decreasing and a lot of its young and talented people are migrating to other countries.
 

pmaitra

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 10, 2009
Messages
33,262
Likes
19,594
The USSR became a superpower by expanding and annexing other countries (territories, people and resources of other countries). It also had a powerful ideology in communism on its rise to superpowerdom. Now Russia has neither the territory (or former Soviet satellites and Baltic states) and ideology. It's population is decreasing and a lot of its young and talented people are migrating to other countries.
Now, the US is gradually approaching communism, so take heart, the US will become even a bigger superpower. I am sure my words are like honey to your ears. :lol:
 

asianobserve

Tihar Jail
Banned
Joined
May 5, 2011
Messages
12,846
Likes
8,556
Country flag
Now, the US is gradually approaching communism, so take heart, the US will become even a bigger superpower. I am sure my words are like honey to your ears. :lol:
I doubt the US can be bigger superpower than it already is, but I think it will remain as a superpower for a long time to come. Russia on the other hand is in the death throes of its superpower status. Actually Russia lost that status the moment the USSR broke up (it used the USSR to increase its power), it is just in denial. It should do what UK did and admit its much reduced power and then sit on the shoulders of the current superpower by alliances to project a much bigger power than what it can muster on its own. No doubt it's going to be a humiliating climb down for a proud leader with emperor-complex like Putin (and his Worldwide rah-rah boys).
 

pmaitra

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 10, 2009
Messages
33,262
Likes
19,594
I doubt the US can be bigger superpower than it already is, but I think it will remain as a superpower for a long time to come. Russia on the other hand is in the death throes of its superpower status. Actually Russia lost that status the moment the USSR broke up (it used the USSR to increase its power), it is just in denial. It should do what UK did and admit its much reduced power and then sit on the shoulders of the current superpower by alliances to project a much bigger power than what it can muster on its own. No doubt it's going to be a humiliating climb down for a proud leader with emperor-complex like Putin (and his Worldwide rah-rah boys).
It was just a rhetoric. Pay no mind if you took it seriously.
 

Ray

The Chairman
Professional
Joined
Apr 17, 2009
Messages
43,132
Likes
23,835
How many DFI members believe that the whole " Mistral saga" had/has a bigger role to play in the European politics and US hegemony, then just another military deal. I personally believe that this whole politics started post 9/11, when the US decided to invade Iraq over a false pretense of WMD's, and France, Germany and Russia protested against the US and paved a dangerous way for Russia to lead the way in the Geo politics of the European region.


If the Mistral deal would have gone through, it would have paved the way for a new era of cooperation between the European powers and the Russian federation, cutting out the US eventually. Russia would have eventually been a part of EU, and there would finally be peace in Europe after centuries of War or Cold War's. Bad news for the US military and Industrial complex!. The only reason the US is still in the picture of European politics, is the scare of the evil commies will invade! rhetoric. Well we see now that the US policy on Europe (and also on the rest of the world ) has NOTHING to do with communism, since Russia is no longer a communist country!. They are just playing the game to stay in the game, and to keep alive a scare, else Europe will unite, and will no longer need to buy expensive American weapons or to cater to the American foreign policy.

Both France and Germany again tried to block the sanctions imposed on Russia, but buckled against US pressure. the whole Isolation of Russia, is just to keep US in Europe. The lease on Crimea was till 2017, Russia had no reason to worry, and the Mistral's would have been well within Russian hands by then, the key was to make Russia invade Crimea before that, by coaxing Ukrainian politics. Once that was done, the stage was set and everyone played their part, and the US watched
FEAR AS A WEAPON
THE EFFECTS OF PSYCHOLOGICAL WARFARE ON DOMESTIC AND INTERNATIONAL POLITICS


Since antiquity, strategists have advised the use of propaganda and other psychological techniques to spread fear among the enemy in order to bring about his defeat. However, the methods to create and manipulate fear also involve terrorism (sometimes state-sponsored) and may target domestic populations in order to make them receptive or hostile to certain political or economic policies.

Fear can be produced deliberately through a number of techniques. Creating fear is part of the little known area within military and strategic studies called 'psychological warfare'. Psychological warfare (PSYWAR), is an unusual
form of warfare, as it does not physically attack the target group, i.e. 'the enemy', in order to destroy them, but the minds of the target group, the psyche.
http://iprd.org.uk/wp-content/plugi...re on Domestic and International Politics.pdf
 

jouni

Senior Member
Joined
Jul 29, 2014
Messages
3,900
Likes
1,138
I doubt the US can be bigger superpower than it already is, but I think it will remain as a superpower for a long time to come. Russia on the other hand is in the death throes of its superpower status. Actually Russia lost that status the moment the USSR broke up (it used the USSR to increase its power), it is just in denial. It should do what UK did and admit its much reduced power and then sit on the shoulders of the current superpower by alliances to project a much bigger power than what it can muster on its own. No doubt it's going to be a humiliating climb down for a proud leader with emperor-complex like Putin (and his Worldwide rah-rah boys).
I know it is difficult task for Russians, but they will manage. We Finns are more than happy to help in the process. Russia with realistic views of itself is much nicer neighbour than this current " living in dreams" is.
 

asianobserve

Tihar Jail
Banned
Joined
May 5, 2011
Messages
12,846
Likes
8,556
Country flag
I know it is difficult task for Russians, but they will manage. We Finns are more than happy to help in the process. Russia with realistic views of itself is much nicer neighbour than this current " living in dreams" is.
I think Russian leadership plays a big part in Russian national psyche. As long as Russian leaders think of themselves as successors of the Czars and Russia entitled to its imperial dominion then majority (not all) Russians will continue to harbor unreasonable fairy tales of their national glory. This is always bad for the neighbors since Russia still has a formidable military (at least compared to its neighbors) and it seems it has no qualms to use it against its neighbors (never mind if for a long time they call their neighbors brothers).
 

Prometheus

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 11, 2009
Messages
400
Likes
344
I think Russian leadership plays a big part in Russian national psyche. As long as Russian leaders think of themselves as successors of the Czars and Russia entitled to its imperial dominion then majority (not all) Russians will continue to harbor unreasonable fairy tales of their national glory. This is always bad for the neighbors since Russia still has a formidable military (at least compared to its neighbors) and it seems it has no qualms to use it against its neighbors (never mind if for a long time they call their neighbors brothers).
ofcourse its because of the Tasarist physche of the Russians, the US is such a peace loving country, it wouldn't EVER think of invading weak nations like Iraq, Libya, Vietnam , Korea, Iran, Cuba, Afghanistan, Serbia...........let alone other nations which challange them, and are the sole choice of other weaker countries to buy defence eqpt to defend themselves
 
Last edited:

jouni

Senior Member
Joined
Jul 29, 2014
Messages
3,900
Likes
1,138
I think Russian leadership plays a big part in Russian national psyche. As long as Russian leaders think of themselves as successors of the Czars and Russia entitled to its imperial dominion then majority (not all) Russians will continue to harbor unreasonable fairy tales of their national glory. This is always bad for the neighbors since Russia still has a formidable military (at least compared to its neighbors) and it seems it has no qualms to use it against its neighbors (never mind if for a long time they call their neighbors brothers).
Here is a famous quote from our formed President Paasikivi.

"The immutable Russian policy is to get whatever they can with the least possible effort, and then ask for more. They never sacrifice their immediate benefits for future goals. They never take into account what has been said, but what has been done. They try to exact a high price for anything that they understand they have to do in any case. They are immune to ethical, humanitarian and abstract juridical arguments, being affected only by practical and realistic points of view."
 
Last edited:

jouni

Senior Member
Joined
Jul 29, 2014
Messages
3,900
Likes
1,138
Quota from our current president:

There is a Russian proverb which says: "kazak berjot Å¡to ploha ležit" 'A Cossack will take whatever is not fixed to the ground'. It is worth taking heed of this household wisdom, which is doubtless based on experience. We must take care of issues and actively cherish the things we view as important. Failure to do so will have consequences. This is true of all aspects of life, from security to the economy/I]
 

jouni

Senior Member
Joined
Jul 29, 2014
Messages
3,900
Likes
1,138
Quota from Mannerheim

Heres one:
"One foreigner who did obtain a private audience with Mannerheim during the January lull was the well-connected Sir Walter Citrine...With unusual candow, at one point in their conversation, Mannerheim told Citrine that he himself had been incredulous about early Russian casualty reports. Battles simply were not that one-sided, in his experience. When one division commander reported that his men had killed 1,000 Russian infantry in a single night, at Taipale, Mannerheim let it be known that he did not believe the figure. Two days later, a terse message came back from the division commander, stating that more than 1,000 Moisin rifles had been collected from the dead and inventoried, if the Marshal would care to come count them for himself. Mannerheim allowed himself a wintry smile as he told the story, adding thathe seldom questioned the casualty reports thereater. "I did not think that my men we so good, or that the Russians could be so bad.""
 
Last edited:

jouni

Senior Member
Joined
Jul 29, 2014
Messages
3,900
Likes
1,138
Another quote from Paasikivi, president '46-'56

Even at her state of weakness, Russia will always be too strong for us
 

Global Defence

New threads

Articles

Top