F-35 Joint Strike Fighter

[BON PLAN]

In simple words, I am very disappointed with your answer.

1. I didn't ask for weakness of F-35, I asked for what weapon systems can destroy F-35. For eg. Don't say the Flankers can defeat F-35 in dog fight. Explain how F-35 will be forced into it!?

2. I agree that LM failed to deliver. But I asked about no. of threat (for F-35) systems operate by 2024. And does superior numbers of F-35 tackle them sucessfully.

3. Did rafale cope with S-300 in IADS environment!? Would you share rafale adventures in S-300!?

A request. Forget what LM promised and what it had delivered. Focus on what can take on F-35 in its current shape and does numerical superiority help!?

Note: Neither this article nor you could point out a conviencing answer that F-35 is obsolete against any weapon system(at least one).

It's not me who said 74% of the exported F35 will be obsolete... Ask the journalist.

About Air to Air combat, History is full of exemple of high end planes shooted down by low end. Fortunately pilot skill and battle field management can heavily modify the sitation.

A recent 4th gen fighter can approach F35. The IR trace is huge, so a potent IRST can take it at 30 to 40 km.
Maybe not a truck like RCS SU30, but some others.

Same for SAM. EVERY stealth planes are only stealthy in X band. A L band radar or a multistatic one can detect and track a stealthy plane. With an accuracy enough for a IR SAM head to take it. Even a EM head will do the job if the missile is fine guided from the ground so as to compensate the reduce range of the seeker versus stealth plane (a S400 missile has a far greater antenna, ie greater range, than an AMRAAM one...)

It's very surprising that during the famous Red Flag, F35 was NEVER opponed to west modern planes... always in the same camp.

Even USAF general said F35 need F22.


Rafale was the sole plane during the MACE (XIII if I remember well) training able to fly over S300 without beeing targeted. Maybe the S300 wasn't in IADS, but you can be sure all the SPECTRA capacity were not used also ! (you NEVER show all your capacity during a training. Even with a very near ally...)

 

[Flame Thrower]

It's not me who said 74% of the exported F35 will be obsolete... Ask the journalist.

About Air to Air combat, History is full of exemple of high end planes shooted down by low end. Fortunately pilot skill and battle field management can heavily modify the sitation.

A recent 4th gen fighter can approach F35. The IR trace is huge, so a potent IRST can take it at 30 to 40 km.
Maybe not a truck like RCS SU30, but some others.

Same for SAM. EVERY stealth planes are only stealthy in X band. A L band radar or a multistatic one can detect and track a stealthy plane. With an accuracy enough for a IR SAM head to take it. Even a EM head will do the job if the missile is fine guided from the ground so as to compensate the reduce range of the seeker versus stealth plane (a S400 missile has a far greater antenna, ie greater range, than an AMRAAM one...)

It's very surprising that during the famous Red Flag, F35 was NEVER opponed to west modern planes... always in the same camp.

Even USAF general said F35 need F22.


Rafale was the sole plane during the MACE (XIII if I remember well) training able to fly over S300 without beeing targeted. Maybe the S300 wasn't in IADS, but you can be sure all the SPECTRA capacity were not used also ! (you NEVER show all your capacity during a training. Even with a very near ally...)

That's why I've said about propaganda(regarding the article).

US general said in context on going against PakFa.

Lets just end it here. No point in discussing anymore.

 

[BON PLAN]

THIS IS A BAD BORN PRODUCT.
Too complex. Too many models together (B model spoils the others). Too ambitious (Or LM knew the difficulties and hide them in order to win the contract, or they didn't apprehend it at the beginning).

Fortunately for the US, they have F22 and will upgrade some F16/F15/SH18.

Unfortunately for some european country : they will rely on a lazy and fat goose.

 

[Vinod DX9]

Turkey gets it's F-35s

 

[bhramos]

Turkey received the first F-35A.

 

[Jaguar_1432]

The Information about Russian Su-57 and Chinese J-20 were added to the F-35 Data Base

The flight data base of the cutting-edge 5th generation F-35 fighters was updated with the information about Russian Su-57 and Chinese J-20. The Pentagon said, that the information is necessary for fereign aircraft indentification.

 

[BON PLAN]

The Information about Russian Su-57 and Chinese J-20 were added to the F-35 Data Base

The flight data base of the cutting-edge 5th generation F-35 fighters was updated with the information about Russian Su-57 and Chinese J-20. The Pentagon said, that the information is necessary for fereign aircraft indentification.

And you can be sure than some informations (some taken in the air, and some... stolen ) are in the Su30, Mig 29/35, J20, J10, J31 data base !!!

 

[BON PLAN]

https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/aviation/a21098498/f-35-problems-fix-before-production/

 

[bhramos]

- 1 F-35

The US Marine Corps has written off the first fifth-generation F-35B fighter. The command of the Marines considered that after the fire that occurred on the plane in the air during the flight, the aircraft is not subject to recovery.

The incident with the F-35B fighter aircraft at the Beaufort air base (North Carolina) occurred in 2016. The airship caught fire in the air during a training flight. The plane landed safely, no one was hurt.

It turned out that the ignition was due to errors in the maintenance of the fighter. The damage was estimated at about two million dollars, writes MarimeTimes.

 

[bhramos]

there were 2 incidents of Fire in mid flight....

Yet Another F-35 Fighter Catches Fire

The incident did at least two million dollars in damage.

A Marine Corps F-35B Joint Strike Fighter caught fire in mid-air, causing at least two million dollars in damage to the aircraft. The aircraft landed safely and the pilot was unharmed. It's the third fire for the controversial jet.

https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/weapons/a23757/f-35-fighter-catches-fire/

Say What?! Tailwind to Blame for ‘Uncontained,’ Costly F-35 Engine Fire

A fresh investigation has concluded that gusts of wind may have been the most important factor in causing an F-35A Joint Strike Fighter’s engine to fail and catch fire during training on September 23, 2016.

The catastrophic and costly engine breakdown occurred after wind “forced hot air into the inlet of the Integrated Power Pack,” a part of the jet’s internal power and cooling system.

The Accident Investigation Board report was published by US Air Education and Training Command on July 12.

During the accident, the pilot was able to safely eject from the “mishap aircraft” while it was ablaze, but two-thirds of the jet “sustained significant fire damage.” Repairs to the F-35 jet are expected to cost $17 million, at the very minimum, according to the executive summary section of the investigation.

https://sputniknews.com/military/201707131055524524-tailwind-blamed-uncontained-f-35-fire/

 

[BON PLAN]

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/ar...lies-new-threats-to-national-sovereignty.html

...the fact that ALIS can “see the number and types of parts available across the entire supply chain,” and then also “reprioritize parts.”

This means that, knowing the location and availability of all spares parts, ALIS can control which part is shipped where, and so prevent any aircraft from flying until it decides to allow the shipment of a given new parts to a given base.

This allows ALIS to control the status and availability of all F-35s in the world, and to prevent them from flying by simply programming a fault or a “hold” into the system....


Sovereinty they said ..... :bs:

 

[StealthFlanker]

Funny !!!
- Rafale is operationnal, on time, on budget, on spec. It has a strong road map for the future (at the beginning Rafale block were : F1, F2, F3.1, F3.2. Now it's F3.4, F3R is ready and F4 is on track)

Rafale first produced in 1986, F-35 was first produced in 2006. At the moment there are 164 Rafale built compared to 300 F-35, Rafale have 4 customers while F-35 has 13 customers
And you considered F-35 future roadmap to be not strong base on what exactly?
At the beginning F-35 have block 1, 1B, 2A , 2B ,3i, now it is at block 3F and 4A and 4B is on track

- F35 is not ready after 17 years of developpment, it's FOC is year after year pushing back, and when you see the promises kept by LM the last 15 years (ie : no one) , you can be sure F4 will not be ready in 2024, not with the spec and budget anticipated.

Actually, F-35 reached IOC now and were recently used in combat by Israel.
F-35 was produced 20 years later than Rafale so it comes at no surprise that its FOC is much later, complain about F-35 FOC then you may as well complaint about J-20, J-31, PAK-FA FOC, have any of them reach FOC? nonse

YOU JUST HAVE TO OPEN YOUR EYES AND SEE THE FACTS. Not the wet dreams of LM marketing department.
The "technological refresh" argument of a plane even not FOC is .... laughable.
Stop writing things you don't trust in.

OR IT YOU WHO NEED TO OPEN YOUR EYES AND SEE THE FACT AND NOT JUST WHAT SUPPORT YOUR CONFIRMATORY BIAS.
To think that "technological refresh" schedule can't exist for a plane in IOC is simply stupid. It is absolutely normal for plane to have upgrade road, heck even paper plane like 6 gen aircraft can have upgrade roadmap.

And now that we know it is not agile as a F16

Actually, F-35 ITR is better than F-16, its post stall agility is far better than F-16, its subsonic acceleration is also better. STR at high subsonic regime is similar to F-16 with DI 50. So actually, they are quite comparable.

not so stealthy (the IR trace is huge for exemple)

Huge compared to what? Do you have any figure to support that statement? no, you don't. And don't tell me because F-135 have high thrust, because that what people who know nothing about jet engine and dynamic thrust would say.
F-35 has more than one technique to reduce its IR signature.
1- Spread fuel tank to use as heat sink

2- Various vents to cool fuselage/ nacelle bay

3-High Bypass engine to reduce plume radiance

4-serrated nozzle to reduce exhaust length

5-Cooling vents on nozzles

6- Thick vertical and horizontal stabilizer block the view toward engine nozzle from frontal aspect.

In air to ground role, some of its supposed key system doesn't work so well. It's why EOTS and DAS will be replaced.

Sorry but nope.That simply nonsense
There are Advanced EOTS and Advanced DAS for future F-35 because it is being upgraded continuously and not standing still, no aircraft is. It the same reason RBE2-AA replaced RBE2, it not because RBE2 can't work.

 

[StealthFlanker]

A recent 4th gen fighter can approach F35. The IR trace is huge, so a potent IRST can take it at 30 to 40 km.Maybe not a truck like RCS SU30, but some others.

There is actually no evidence that F-35 IR track is huge compared to Rafale or Typhoon, given the fact that F-35 has many IR reduction measures and cruising subsonic, its IR signature will be smaller than supercrusing 4.5 gen.
Furthermore, even potent IRST like OLS-35 only reach out to around 35 km with laser finder range of barely 20 km, hardly game-changing.

Same for SAM. EVERY stealth planes are only stealthy in X band. A L band radar or a multistatic one can detect and track a stealthy plane

Laughable statement
stealth aircraft aren't just stealthy in X -band, stealth aircraft shaping is effective against quite a wide range of frequency, only at extremely low frequency when the wavelength of the wave approaching the length of the fuselage (Mie region) that their shaping start to lose effectiveness because most reflection will be travelling wave scattering and edge diffraction instead of specular return

But even that is not without solution, the blended edges on modern stealth aircraft like B-2 ,F-35 instead of sharp edges like F-117 are basically to reduce edge diffraction and traveling wave scattering at low frequency

furthermore extremely wide bandwidth RAM that work at very low frequency exist so it not like they will suddenly have RCS of a barn at VHF band
https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/pdfs/US20100271253.pdf

Even a EM head will dothe job if the missile is fine guided from the ground so as to compensate the reduce range of the seeker versus stealth plane (a S400 missile has a far greater antenna, ie greater range, than an AMRAAM one...).

Funny that you brought that up because this

In short, in real combat situations with jamming and what not, burn through range of any radar against F-35 will be 10 times shorter than against Rafale. So Rafale will have it 10 times worse

It's very surprising that during the famous Red Flag, F35 was NEVER opponed to west modern planes... always in the same camp.

It face off against F-15E before, which is a very modern western plane

Rafale was the sole plane during the MACE (XIII if I remember well) training able to fly over S300 without beeing targeted.

There wasn't any evidence of that actually, just rumor. Furthermore, only F-16A , F-4 and very old aircraft participated in that exercrise

 

[BON PLAN]

Rafale first produced in 1986, F-35 was first produced in 2006. At the moment there are 164 Rafale built compared to 300 F-35, Rafale have 4 customers while F-35 has 13 customers
And you considered F-35 future roadmap to be not strong base on what exactly?
At the beginning F-35 have block 1, 1B, 2A , 2B ,3i, now it is at block 3F and 4A and 4B is on track

Stealth Flanker : the come back .....

You are ill informed my dear :

Rafale A flown in 1986.
Rafale A was a test bed. Not a single component in common with Rafale B/C/M . Only an aero configuration test bed (for semi ventral without mobile piece air intakes, fully digital FBW, closed coupled delta canards)

To be sure you understand well : Rafale A is to Rafale B/C/M the same than X35 is to F35.

If you desesperatly not understand, please just modify the first flight of F35 not to 2006, but 2000.


As already answered, you can't compare the need of the 1st super power and the one of the 6th or 7th...
I'm sure F35 will never been built 7x more than Rafale !

Never said F35 road map is not strong (If I have to write something I would say it's a never ending map...). I just say the Rafale one is.

At the beginning F35 with a block 3i ? YOU ARE PULLING MY LEG BRO. What mean i?
3F ? F like... Final? unfortunately no.....

 

[BON PLAN]

Actually, F-35 reached IOC now and were recently used in combat by Israel.

We don't know yet what kind of mission. just to sniff some SAM site from hundreds kilometers ?
IOC.... what mean IOC ?
FOC is not for tomorrow... the non kept promises of LM don't give confidence.

 

[BON PLAN]

To think that "technological refresh" schedule can't exist for a plane in IOC is simply stupid. It is absolutely normal for plane to have upgrade road, heck even paper plane like 6 gen aircraft can have upgrade roadmap.

Sure that a plane always in a politicaly correct IOC phase after 12 years of developpment need a "technological refresh". 12 years...
An engine change, a DAS change, an EOTS change .... the only thing that will not change is the frame. It's not a refresh, it's a complete LIFTING.

 

[BON PLAN]

Huge compared to what? Do you have any figure to support that statement? no, you don't. And don't tell me because F-135 have high thrust, because that what people who know nothing about jet engine and dynamic thrust would say.
F-35 has more than one technique to reduce its IR signature.
1- Spread fuel tank to use as heat sink

It is so IR stealthy that it needs to open regularly its bay to refresh itself !

Spread fuel ? Nice for the already short range.

 

[BON PLAN]

https://www.marinecorpstimes.com/ne...fforts-are-costing-millions-in-base-upgrades/

The Affordable fighter according to LM propaganda !

In fact not affordable to purchase, but ruinous to bring to a barely decent level.

Poor Netherlands. With less than 40 costly and useless fighters (213 F16 ordered...)

 

[BON PLAN]

There is actually no evidence that F-35 IR track is huge compared to Rafale or Typhoon, given the fact that F-35 has many IR reduction measures and cruising subsonic, its IR signature will be smaller than supercrusing 4.5 gen.
Furthermore, even potent IRST like OLS-35 only reach out to around 35 km with laser finder range of barely 20 km, hardly game-changing.

Laughable statement
stealth aircraft aren't just stealthy in X -band, stealth aircraft shaping is effective against quite a wide range of frequency, only at extremely low frequency when the wavelength of the wave approaching the length of the fuselage (Mie region) that their shaping start to lose effectiveness because most reflection will be travelling wave scattering and edge diffraction instead of specular return

But even that is not without solution, the blended edges on modern stealth aircraft like B-2 ,F-35 instead of sharp edges like F-117 are basically to reduce edge diffraction and traveling wave scattering at low frequency

furthermore extremely wide bandwidth RAM that work at very low frequency exist so it not like they will suddenly have RCS of a barn at VHF band
https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/pdfs/US20100271253.pdf


Funny that you brought that up because this

In short, in real combat situations with jamming and what not, burn through range of any radar against F-35 will be 10 times shorter than against Rafale. So Rafale will have it 10 times worse


It face off against F-15E before, which is a very modern western plane


There wasn't any evidence of that actually, just rumor. Furthermore, only F-16A , F-4 and very old aircraft participated in that exercrise

nice pics, nice mathematic formulas !
It don't hide the program is at an advanced state of disaster.

LM is already studying Gen 6 .... to turn the F35 page.

 

[BON PLAN]

There wasn't any evidence of that actually, just rumor. Furthermore, only F-16A , F-4 and very old aircraft participated in that exercrise

NO.
Mace XIII, in Slovaquia, 2012. Rafale was there.