F-35 Joint Strike Fighter

[ersakthivel]

Impressive development. $75 Million a piece. Woww !! :shocked:

Is this an watered-down export version ? How can a 5th-Gen stealthy one cost less than 4th Gen ?

Comments @p2prada @Decklander @ersakthivel @Kunal Biswas @Armand2REP @gadeshi @shiphone @lookieloo @average american

In the report itself it is clearly being said that the prices depend on the numbers ordered,

Navy may look into it, but IAF already deeply involved in FGFA, So it remains to be seen whether it will opt for f-35.

But what this article says is how much over priced RAFALE is at present,

If F-35 costs around 100 million at today's prices surely present pricing of RAFALE is over the top if we compare the tech and RCS.

it further complicates our MMRCA deal , because now there will be unprecedented pressure from Americans to look at it as an alternative for RAFALE considring the price.

Other than the stealth and sensor fusion , the close combat specs of F-35 are nothing to write home about because of the compromise of common design with vertical take off version , is the real problem for IAF.

But the option of having a few squadrons of F-35 mixed up with other fourth gen fighters in IAF to act as eyes and ears of the combined fleet at the front line will be a strong lure for IAF.

Because F-35 can fly much in front acting as detector and director of the long range BVRs that will be fired from 4th gen fighters flying behind it is some thing that can not be written off as a fiction.

So having a few squads of F-35 operating along with other high no of 4th gen fighters, amplifies the effectiveness of the total fleet many times

Because neither FGFA nor RAFALE will offer a combination of stealth and sensor fusion of F-35, Since we are the party responsible for Doing Avionics and sensors on FGFA.

For Navy it gives the option of making it's heli carries into mini carriers , a very interesting option, But we don't knoe what is the price of the Vertical take off version now,

But then what will we do with our AMCA program , if we end up buying all prominent fighters from abroad burning up the entire IAF budget for them?

 

[gadeshi]

F-35 price label was so hi because of tremendous LM profits and management costs bargain rather than technological risc.
So, if LM will reduce managers and increase engineers on F-35 along with supply chain reducements and improvements... May be possible.

As for Rafale, it suffers the same problems as F-35 amplified by rediculously small numbers.

The question is why to buy such an incapable aircraft as F-35 is?

 

[asianobserve]

The question is why to buy such an incapable aircraft as F-35 is?

The USAF is definitely buying a lot of this fighters. I don't think the No. 1 Air Force in the World will be buying a lemon fighter to serve them in the next 3 decades at a time when their potential adversaries are developing cutting edge new fighters. This fixation of fan boys with extreme maneuverability does not seem to resonate with the strategic planners of the US Air Force (who undoubtedly have the most experience in modern Air combat).

 

[gadeshi]

The 100-th F-35 (F-35A) has been delievered to USAF:
sandrermakoff: Церемония передачи Сотки и немного цифр.

 

[gadeshi]

The USAF is definitely buying a lot of this fighters. I don't think the No. 1 Air Force in the World will be buying a lemon fighter to serve them in the next 3 decades at a time when their potential adversaries are developing cutting edge new fighters. This fixation of fan boys with extreme maneuverability does not seem to resonate with the strategic planners of the US Air Force (who undoubtedly have the most experience in modern Air combat).

You should just think about US potential enemies.
It seems, that USA prepares to war with weak and incapable foes.
F-35 cannot survive Russian or Chinese AD, not speaking about to suppress or destroy it (doesn't have stand-off weapons for 200+km internally, has insufficient speed and turn rates, is very flammable and fragile to withstand enemy fire and so on).

 

[TrueSpirit1]

The question is why to buy such an incapable aircraft as F-35 is?

JSF is already available for induction. PAKFA (rather, FGFA) is nowhere to be seen.

Besides, there is simply no comparison between F-35 & PAKFA when it comes to stealth, AESA, sensor fusion (US is generations ahead of Russian in these aspects), unparalleled 360 degree situational awareness system in DAS & finally, better Ground-strike armaments (we really need this for our adversaries). VTOL capability is a big bonus & extremely rare advantage; fits in with Indian Navy's sea-control doctrine.

Only advantage with PAKFA is kinematics: Leading Edge Vortex Controller (LEVCON), payload, range & dog-fight characteristics (last advantage is of little consequence now).

 

[rvjpheonix]

JSF is already available for induction. PAKFA (rather, FGFA) is nowhere to be seen.

Besides, there is simply no comparison between F-35 & PAKFA when it comes to stealth, AESA, sensor fusion (US is generations ahead of Russian in these aspects), unparalleled 360 degree situational awareness system in DAS & finally, better Ground-strike armaments (we really need this for our adversaries). VTOL capability is a big bonus & extremely rare advantage; fits in with Indian Navy's sea-control doctrine.

Only advantage with PAKFA is kinematics: Leading Edge Vortex Controller (LEVCON), payload, range & dog-fight characteristics (last advantage is of little consequence now).

Dont write off the FGFA just yet. Why isn't there any competition when it comes to stealth? You cannot say whether an aircraft is stealthy or not just by looking at it. About AESA, you should look up the most recent happenings there in Russia as to the latest modules produced. Don't forget that the FGFA has a lot more power and has a bigger radar available too. I guess the Americans are way ahead as far as sensor fusion is concerned but even FGFA will have 360 degree awareness. And add to the fact that the Americans wont transfer half as much tech as the russians if they transfer any at all. Having a foreign aircraft is bad enough just think what will happen if we have such important hardware which we know nothing about? Another sanction from them and we are doomed. Plus what do you think will happen when two stealth aircraft face off. As far as I am concerned even if the PAK FA has worse RCS it will force the F 35 or any other stealth aircraft to a merge where its supermaneuverability will be overwhelming. The world will now go back to dogfights but really short ones where the aircraft with more number numbers and better nose pointing ability wins.Oh and dont forget the supercruise too.

 

[asianobserve]

You should just think about US potential enemies.
It seems, that USA prepares to war with weak and incapable foes.

So USA has no strategic military planning? It must be constantly in luck (no planning done) to have attained and maintained its No. 1 military status (with no single country able to challenge its conventional military supremacy for decades to come).

 

[p2prada]

Impressive development. $75 Million a piece. Woww !! :shocked:

Is this an watered-down export version ? How can a 5th-Gen stealthy one cost less than 4th Gen ?

Naturally, look at the size of the program.

LCA will cost around $3 Billion to develop in total, minus the cost of Kaveri program. Procurement cost will be around $8 Billion in total for around 178 aircraft.

F-35 will cost around $40-60 Billion in R&D alone, while procurement of 3000+ aircraft will be above $300 Billion.

For the cost of one LCA spent to develop, we bought 2.5 LCAs. For the cost of one F-35 spent to develop, they are buying at least 5 F-35s, maybe more at the above figures.

 

[TrueSpirit1]

Dont write off the FGFA just yet. Why isn't there any competition when it comes to stealth? You cannot say whether an aircraft is stealthy or not just by looking at it. About AESA, you should look up the most recent happenings there in Russia as to the latest modules produced. Don't forget that the FGFA has a lot more power and has a bigger radar available too. I guess the Americans are way ahead as far as sensor fusion is concerned but even FGFA will have 360 degree awareness. And add to the fact that the Americans wont transfer half as much tech as the russians if they transfer any at all. Having a foreign aircraft is bad enough just think what will happen if we have such important hardware which we know nothing about? Another sanction from them and we are doomed. Plus what do you think will happen when two stealth aircraft face off. As far as I am concerned even if the PAK FA has worse RCS it will force the F 35 or any other stealth aircraft to a merge where its supermaneuverability will be overwhelming. The world will now go back to dogfights but really short ones where the aircraft with more number numbers and better nose pointing ability wins.Oh and dont forget the supercruise too.

One hopes that whatever you wrote about PAKFA's AESA is true & its super-maneuverability could be of some consequence against the Su-35's of PLAAF.

 

[TrueSpirit1]

Naturally, look at the size of the program.

LCA will cost around $3 Billion to develop in total, minus the cost of Kaveri program. Procurement cost will be around $8 Billion in total for around 178 aircraft.

F-35 will cost around $40-60 Billion in R&D alone, while procurement of 3000+ aircraft will be above $300 Billion.

For the cost of one LCA spent to develop, we bought 2.5 LCAs. For the cost of one F-35 spent to develop, they are buying at least 5 F-35s, maybe more at the above figures.

So, the buck stops at IAF who should buying more LCA's to bring down the overall program & acquisition costs. We cannot think of export customers unless IAF gives its stamp of approval to LCA.

 

[p2prada]

The USAF is definitely buying a lot of this fighters. I don't think the No. 1 Air Force in the World will be buying a lemon fighter to serve them in the next 3 decades at a time when their potential adversaries are developing cutting edge new fighters. This fixation of fan boys with extreme maneuverability does not seem to resonate with the strategic planners of the US Air Force (who undoubtedly have the most experience in modern Air combat).

The so called strategic planners rate the F-22 higher than the F-35 for air combat.

PAKFA is at the same level as the F-22, but with F-35 level avionics and better than F-22 kinematics. So, you add one and one together.

JSF is already available for induction. PAKFA (rather, FGFA) is nowhere to be seen.

F-35 started a bit earlier too, 1996 versus 2002. PAKFA FOC and F-35 FOC are set to match.

Besides, there is simply no comparison between F-35 & PAKFA when it comes to stealth, AESA, sensor fusion (US is generations ahead of Russian in these aspects), unparalleled 360 degree situational awareness system in DAS & finally, better Ground-strike armaments (we really need this for our adversaries). VTOL capability is a big bonus & extremely rare advantage; fits in with Indian Navy's sea-control doctrine.

These aspects, we do not really know. For eg: PAKFA looks like it will end up with much better base technologies like GaN modules in AESA radar and so on. F-35 may get better hardware at a later date. If the Russians are not able to use better hardware to their advantage, then they should be considered fools, which is subjective and debatable.

 

[p2prada]

So, the buck stops at IAF who should buying more LCA's to bring down the overall program & acquisition costs. We cannot think of export customers unless IAF gives its stamp of approval to LCA.

We can't think of it that way. IAF has no need to depend on exports to reduce the cost of LCA, the US does for the F-35.

And F-35 won't be cheaper than LCA anyway. LM is talking about competing aircraft like SH, EF-2000 and Rafale. I merely gave an example using LCA. The same applies to Rafale and other aircraft where the numbers are not enough to reduce unit costs.

LCA can be exported only if a new Mk3 is made with K-10 for anti-American countries, but that could take a decade or more. Pro-American countries, they may end up buying F-35, SH or Gripen over LCA Mk2.

 

[ice berg]

The so called strategic planners rate the F-22 higher than the F-35 for air combat.

PAKFA is at the same level as the F-22, but with F-35 level avionics and better than F-22 kinematics. So, you add one and one together.



F-35 started a bit earlier too, 1996 versus 2002. PAKFA FOC and F-35 FOC are set to match.



These aspects, we do not really know. For eg: PAKFA looks like it will end up with much better base technologies like GaN modules in AESA radar and so on. F-35 may get better hardware at a later date. If the Russians are not able to use better hardware to their advantage, then they should be considered fools, which is subjective and debatable.

Your PAKFA is nowhere to be seen. The F-22 was inducted 8 years ago. The lost decade is hard to catch up for them.
That is a tall claim that PAKFA is at the same level as F-22. US is on their 3-4 generation VLO designs now. same level? HA

 

[rvjpheonix]

One hopes that whatever you wrote about PAKFA's AESA is true & its super-maneuverability could be of some consequence against the Su-35's of PLAAF.

I too hope so:thumb:

 

[gadeshi]

JSF is already available for induction. PAKFA (rather, FGFA) is nowhere to be seen.

Besides, there is simply no comparison between F-35 & PAKFA when it comes to stealth, AESA, sensor fusion (US is generations ahead of Russian in these aspects), unparalleled 360 degree situational awareness system in DAS & finally, better Ground-strike armaments (we really need this for our adversaries). VTOL capability is a big bonus & extremely rare advantage; fits in with Indian Navy's sea-control doctrine.

Only advantage with PAKFA is kinematics: Leading Edge Vortex Controller (LEVCON), payload, range & dog-fight characteristics (last advantage is of little consequence now).

1 - AESA - N036 is 100km+ superior to AN/APG-81 in range, have more TRMs and 1.5 times larger aperture (greater power-to-signal rates thus better signal/noise ratio and range). And BTW, where are the American planar ceramic GaN TRMs ?

2 - Sensor Fusion - Soviets were and Russians are a pioneres and world leaders of datalinking and sensor fusion technologies since early 70-s (surprise-surprise???). VVS had TKS-1 in 1969, I guess (google for more) while there were no even think about Link-16 or so. Now we have TKS-3... And of course Russians are the best specs on cocpit ergonomics and aviation medicine/psycology/physiology, fare more than any nation in the world including Americans.

3 - 360 deg awareness - PAK FA has OEIS 101-KS system which is at least the same capable as EO DAS, thus have more radiation band channels than DAS. And 101KS is data-fused into overall FCS of course. PAK FA already have ZSh-10 helmet with holographic eye-retine projected HMTS, which is fare more simple, reliable, cheap and is much lighter in weight than F-35 monstrous helmet.

4 - Ground strike armaments - This is not even rediculous. F-35 doesn't have ANY stand-off GA weapons internally - just bombs (JDAM/SDB). While PAK FA has Kh-58USh 250-km and 4.5M capable ARM, guided bombs (100, 250 and 500kg), Kh-38M modular GA missiles, a new compact ALCM is under development. This is all regarding the most powerfull AA weapons in the world.

VTOL is a great disadvantage, which made F-35 a cripple, unmaneurable, overweighted and underpowered flying trunk with enormous drag and without supercruise capabilities.

 

[Defcon 1]

We can't think of it that way. IAF has no need to depend on exports to reduce the cost of LCA, the US does for the F-35.

And F-35 won't be cheaper than LCA anyway. LM is talking about competing aircraft like SH, EF-2000 and Rafale. I merely gave an example using LCA. The same applies to Rafale and other aircraft where the numbers are not enough to reduce unit costs.

LCA can be exported only if a new Mk3 is made with K-10 for anti-American countries, but that could take a decade or more. Pro-American countries, they may end up buying F-35, SH or Gripen over LCA Mk2.

Another option for mk 3 could be the GEF414 EPE engine. Since mk2 will be in production for a longer period than mk1, it will give enough time to ADA to develop mk-3.

LCA can be exported even to pro US countries since it will cost about half that of a F16, hence no direct competition.

 

[p2prada]

Your PAKFA is nowhere to be seen. The F-22 was inducted 8 years ago. The lost decade is hard to catch up for them.
That is a tall claim that PAKFA is at the same level as F-22. US is on their 3-4 generation VLO designs now. same level? HA

It's disappointing that they didn't build a stealthier aircraft with PAKFA, but it is plenty for "us," don't you think?

I hope you get the point I am making.

In terms of avionics, PAKFA is better than F-22 and even F-35 in some respects.

Anyway, US has the upperhand on stealth, but PAKFA's priorities were simply a bit different. They didn't want to sacrifice certain aerodynamic qualities for stealth. It depends on whether FGFA will follow some of those qualities or not.

The only way we can catch up or exceed the US is when we also start thinking about 6th gen aircraft in the future.

Another option for mk 3 could be the GEF414 EPE engine. Since mk2 will be in production for a longer period than mk1, it will give enough time to ADA to develop mk-3.

That is a definite. Even as an interim engine.

LCA can be exported even to pro US countries since it will cost about half that of a F16, hence no direct competition.

Would have been better if LCA could be sold to every country with K-10. Too bad we can't think of it yet.

 

[Defcon 1]

That is a definite. Even as an interim engine.



Would have been better if LCA could be sold to every country with K-10. Too bad we can't think of it yet.

F414 EPE version is not confirmed LCA apart from the old article where said that they will "offer" it to India. It is not known whether we have selected it.

A GE engine reaches 118 kN of thrust. K10 will never achieve this value. ADA will be wise to go for EPE and use it as an opportunity to increase the size of Tejas, increasing its range and payload. An export version of mk2/mk3 could be developed specifically for an importing nation, however that will only make sense if the orders are substantial. Integration with Kaveri, if it ever happens will happen after receiving the orders and not before. That is unless DRDO really changes itself to focus on export markets and aggressively promotes Tejas.

 

[p2prada]

F414 EPE version is not confirmed LCA apart from the old article where said that they will "offer" it to India. It is not known whether we have selected it.

A GE engine reaches 118 kN of thrust. K10 will never achieve this value. ADA will be wise to go for EPE and use it as an opportunity to increase the size of Tejas, increasing its range and payload. An export version of mk2/mk3 could be developed specifically for an importing nation, however that will only make sense if the orders are substantial. Integration with Kaveri, if it ever happens will happen after receiving the orders and not before. That is unless DRDO really changes itself to focus on export markets and aggressively promotes Tejas.

We haven't selected F-414 EPE for Mk2.

You were talking about Mk3.

K-10 has not even been designed yet, so we won't really know. K-10 is the best option for LCA, but its availability is suspect.