F-35 Joint Strike Fighter

[ice berg]

Unfortunately he is also right that platform wise US is ahead as well. Up to the 80-90s the gap may not be that big. But after the break up of USSR, it did have a huge impact on their aviation industry. They are not on par with US any more..

 

[average american]

Can you list what this everything is? Or is this average american fanboi talk?

Not everything but a lot of it...

Russian Tech Stumbles Again Russian Tech Stumbles Again

Russian Graney (Yasen) class SSGN (nuclear powered cruise missile sub) has been delayed for the second time this year. Recent sea trials revealed that the nuclear reactor did not produce the required power and that the ability of the boat to remain quiet while under water was not working. An underpowered and noisy sub is not acceptable and the navy is demanding that the builder make it all better before 2014.

The Graneys are having new "smart" (target seeking) torpedoes designed and built for them. But even these new torpedoes are having development problems and may be cancelled.

Half of the Bulava ballistic missilehave failed BBC News - Russian missile test launch fails

Vitaly Shlykov, a former Soviet war planner and ex-deputy defense minister of Russia. "But Russia has de-industrialized. It's basically a third world country that lives by oil extraction today. This rearmament program is a political campaign, to make Putin proud. The T-50 is essentially a political gadget."

That means every part that goes into a Russian fighter plane these days has to be produced in-house, an exhaustive, time-consuming and exorbitantly expensive process, says Pavel Felgenhauer, a military expert with the opposition Novaya Gazeta newspaper in Moscow.

"Worse than that, there's a huge technological gap between Russian and Western industry," he says.

"[Russia] still has people who can design new products, but the ability of our industry to produce them is deeply questionable. What can you do if you can't get reliable components, have no modern machinery capable of making precision parts and you lack highly-skilled workers? You can't produce much of value," Felgenhauer says

The Russian record speaks for its self, about 5 kills to 200. accident rate in both the miltiary and civilian industry. Size of Russian Econmy 1/8 USA, research a small fraction of the USA. USA has human resources from from all over the world working on the technology, russia, china, india, germany, UK..... The USA retired the space shuttle after it put the space station in orbit, now US is turning over the shuttles work to private enterprise, have already shipped some supplies with private company....... Russias haveing technical problems with its subs, ICBMs and torpedos. aircraft engines. etc.

asianobserve is right, US has found that fighting as a team is a force multiplier of 2.5 that of individuals flying alone,,, that 10 planes fighing as a team with equal ability and planes could take on 25 planes fighting individually.

The reason the US overwhelms every other military we were preparing to fight both the USSR, and China.

THINK::::

 

[average american]

Military Defense Spending and Budgets
USA - $515,400,000,000
China - $59,000,000,000
Russia - $43,200,000,000

Aerial-Based Weapons
USA - 18,169
China - 1,900
Russia - 3,888

Navy Ships
USA - 1559
China - 760
Russia - 526

Aircraft Carriers
USA - 12
China - 1
Russia - 1

Destroyers
USA - 50
China - 21
Russia - 15

In addition one must consider that this difference in military budgets has been going on since the USSR collapsed almost 20 years ago. Plus the degree of sophistication of the technology is drastically different as well. ie. All tanks are not created equal! (These numbers do not include atomic weapons).

For more info:
Global Firepower - 2012 World Military Strength Ranking

 

[p2prada]

Unfortunately he is also right that platform wise US is ahead as well. Up to the 80-90s the gap may not be that big. But after the break up of USSR, it did have a huge impact on their aviation industry. They are not on par with US any more..

Not necessarily. The Russians are at the same point as the Soviets were in the 70s. That's when the US was building new generation stuff and the Russians followed a few years later.

The Eagle was first inducted in 1976, the Flanker in 1984.

The Viper in 1978, the Mig-29 in 1983.

So, a similar timeline for PAKFA too.

As for whether they are on par or not, only time will tell. In case the PAKFA is upto the F-35 in stealth and avionics, combine that with all the extra heavy aircraft advantages, we have a winner. It all depends on the numbers inducted in the end.

Where the Russians are woefully behind is, of course, in UAVs.

The reason the US overwhelms every other military we were preparing to fight both the USSR, and China.

China was an American friend from 1974 to 1989. The Chinese had a lot of JVs and consultancy projects with American companies.

Both China and the US were allies when the Soviets were running amock in Afghanistan.

 

[p2prada]

The USA retired the space shuttle after it put the space station in orbit, now US is turning over the shuttles work to private enterprise, have already shipped some supplies with private company.......

Shuttles were retired due to accidents and that it has outlived it's utility before a replacement was found. As of today, there is the Orion program and first manned mission is expected in 2020. So, back to a rocket.

Russias haveing technical problems with its subs, ICBMs and torpedos. aircraft engines. etc.

Everybody does. Heard of the F-35?

 

[asianobserve]

Secondly, the fact is the Flanker is better than the Eagle, at least if we go by the words of the Youtube Karnal.

Here are hypothetical questions for you:

1. Considering we're back in 1985 and you are given the choice to decide for the IAF on what air superiority fighter to buy - you have unlimited budget and no political constraints - what would you honestly choose, Eagle (F15C) or Flanker B?

2. Considering that you're given again a choice by the IAF now to choose its next air superiority fighter - again money is not an issue and there's no political constraints - what would you honestly choose, Raptor (consider that hypothetically the Americans will offer it to you on the same specs as their's) or PAKFA?

 

[average american]

As of right now and for the forseeable future we dont sell the F22 to anyone, it would take an act congress to see the F22 neither the presidentor the military to authorize the selling of the F22.

 

[asianobserve]

As of right now and for the forseeable future we dont sell the F22 to anyone, it would take an act congress to see the F22 neither the presidentor the military to authorize the selling of the F22.

We know that. My question to p2prada was only hypothetical.

 

[asianobserve]

An interesting article on Japan's decision to buy F-35


IN FOCUS: Tokyo casts wary eye on Chinese airpower developments
By: GREG WALDRON SINGAPORE 06:54 2 Aug 2012
Source: Flightglobal INternational


A white paper published by Japan's defence ministry has shed light on Tokyo's views of military aviation developments in China and its decision earlier this year to select the Lockheed Martin F-35A for its 42-aircraft F-X requirement.

Tokyo's annual Defense of Japan white paper discusses the nation's strategic environment and security challenges. It makes specific mention of Beijing's refurbishment of the former Soviet aircraft carrier Varyag (now undergoing sea trials) and its development of the Shenyang J-15 – a copy of the Sukhoi Su-33 – as clear evidence that China is building "capabilities to conduct operations in more distant areas".

"Based on these facts, it is believed that China is now earnestly advancing research and development on technologies necessary for possession of aircraft carriers," it says.

Tokyo is also concerned about Beijing's growing force of Chengdu J-10s, Su-27s and Su-30s, as well as its investments in air-to-air refuelling and transport aircraft. It has observed more frequent Chinese intelligence-gathering flights near Japan, typically mounted by specialised variants of the Shaanxi Y-8 transport.

"These incidents indicate that Chinese aircraft are diversifying their flight patterns," the defence ministry says. "Judging from the modernisation of air forces and the activities by aircraft, it is believed that China is not only improving its air defence capabilities for its national territory, but also aiming to build up capabilities for air superiority and anti-surface and anti-ship attacks in areas which are as distant from China as possible, and improving long-range transportation capabilities. Further attention needs to be paid to these activities conducted by Chinese air forces."

The white paper dedicates several pages to the decision to obtain the F-35A over the Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet and Eurofighter Typhoon in the F-X competition.

With regard to the threat environment that the new fighter will face, it cites "the emergence of high-performance fighter aircraft with excellent stealth capability and situation awareness capabilities".

This is clearly an allusion to Beijing's developmental Chengdu J-20. Experts have questioned the ability of Chinese industry to create an advanced, stealthy fighter with capabilities such as supercruise and true sensor fusion. Nonetheless, general media has stoked a perception that the J-20 will be a rival to advanced western aircraft such as the Lockheed F-22. A Pentagon report in May suggested that the J-20 will be operational in 2018.

The white paper lists four main criteria for Japan's selection of the F-35A: performance; cost; industry participation; and logistical support.

It says that mathematical analysis indicated that the F-35A was the best performer and that it had obtained "a good balance of high scores in aircraft performance, fire control capability, electronic warfare capability, stealth target detection capability (air-to-ground attack capability, etc) and all other evaluation criteria."

Although the F-35A was second to the Super Hornet in purchase costs and second to the Typhoon in lifetime fuel costs, it actually won on a cost basis owing to the fact that it is already compatible with Japan's air-to-air refuelling fleet. This indicates that the F-35A buy will obviate the requirement to modify the nation's tankers.

All three types did well under industrial participation, while there was fierce competition under the logistical support criterion. Here, the F-35A won based on the aircraft's ability to identify failures in greater detail, as well as "the function to indicate the expected time to replace components".

All three rivals came with a performance-based logistics programme, where the user only pays when pre-specified maintenance outcomes are achieved. All three had equal scores here.

 

[average american]

Of course India would not buy an F35, they would prefer the T50 and PAK-FA because they are so much smarter then the Japnese.

 

[Agnostic_Indian]

Of course India would not buy an F35, they would prefer the T50 and PAK-FA because they are so much smarter then the Japnese.

why should we buy F35 when we can joint develop FGFA , which offers technical know how, Transfer of tech, No strings attached , greater potential and capability than F35.

 

[tjpf]

As of right now and for the forseeable future we dont sell the F22 to anyone, it would take an act congress to see the F22 neither the presidentor the military to authorize the selling of the F22.

who wants the junk
F22 Raptor Exposed - Why the F22 Was Cancelled - YouTube

see what SPREY (founding father of F16 and APACHE) has to say about F22

The F-22 Raptor is said to be invisible...until it isn't

F22 can't fly in rain coz its stealth paint goes off and huge problem of corrosion.

 

[ice berg]

Not necessarily. The Russians are at the same point as the Soviets were in the 70s. That's when the US was building new generation stuff and the Russians followed a few years later.

The Eagle was first inducted in 1976, the Flanker in 1984.

The Viper in 1978, the Mig-29 in 1983.

So, a similar timeline for PAKFA too.

As for whether they are on par or not, only time will tell. In case the PAKFA is upto the F-35 in stealth and avionics, combine that with all the extra heavy aircraft advantages, we have a winner. It all depends on the numbers inducted in the end.

Where the Russians are woefully behind is, of course, in UAVs.

That is why I said up til the 80s... After the collapse of USSR, the aviation industry got hit badly.

Notice that you are comparing PAKFA to F-35. PAKFA will be the high end in russian inventory while F-35 will be the low end in US airforce. That in itself should tell you about the gap.

Not to mention F-35 is almost here while PAKFA are years away.

 

[p2prada]

Here are hypothetical questions for you:

1. Considering we're back in 1985 and you are given the choice to decide for the IAF on what air superiority fighter to buy - you have unlimited budget and no political constraints - what would you honestly choose, Eagle (F15C) or Flanker B?

Flanker of course. Our pilots rate it higher than the Eagle. We have an American pilot dissing the Flanker, but still calling it better than the Eagle. What I mean to say is this is not even my personal opinion.

2. Considering that you're given again a choice by the IAF now to choose its next air superiority fighter - again money is not an issue and there's no political constraints - what would you honestly choose, Raptor (consider that hypothetically the Americans will offer it to you on the same specs as their's) or PAKFA?

Very difficult to answer because we know very little about the PAKFA program. We haven't even seen the insides of the internal bay to decide if it will carry 4 AAMs or 8 AAMs. If we consider avionics, we know literally nothing. All we know is that there is a AESA developed for it and our version will have a 360degree capability, something the Raptor is not built for and hence won't even suit IAF requirements.

The PAKFA is said to be less capable in stealth, but that's about it. What we do know is it will be better than Raptor in maneuverability and agility along with an exceptionally high T/W ratio. Raptor has a T/W of 1.62 when empty, PAKFA is expected to have a T/W of 1.95 or 2 in comparison and this is considering we have taken the Flanker's empty weight. Compared to Flanker the PAKFA is smaller and uses a large percentage of composites. I think you have been through the PAKFA thread and read about a high T/W engine already. According to Russian officials, PAKFA will have a T/W of 1.4 when combat loaded.

If we consider F-22 or F-35 level avionics in the future followed by a decent level of stealth. According to the Russians, stealthiness will be between the Raptor and F-35. For discussion's sake let's just assume it is at F-35s level. Couple that with planned induction of missiles capable of shooting down incoming BVR, we have a winner already.

Of course there so many unknown variables. But you will notice there is nothing I have said that has not been officially revealed as of today. So, you can say the PAKFA is a great aircraft on paper.

There are really only 3 physically identifiable parameters to determine if an aircraft is stealthy or not. Stealth shaping, canted tails and internal weapons bays. Everything else can only be speculated and even after that there is no guarantee it is even close to being correct.

If we go by IAF's requirement for a 360 degree radar capability, then that alone pushes the scales to PAKFA's favour.

 

[p2prada]

Of course India would not buy an F35, they would prefer the T50 and PAK-FA because they are so much smarter then the Japnese.

If F-35 competes with other older aircraft like Rafale and Super Hornet, then F-35 has bright chances. If FGFA enters the fray then no aircraft has a chance for obvious reasons.

I am talking with the Indian Navy in mind. IAF won't buy F-35s because of the FGFA program that's already started.

 

[p2prada]

That is why I said up til the 80s... After the collapse of USSR, the aviation industry got hit badly.

Actually the design centers did not get hit by the collapse. It was the manufacturing industry that was hit. After the collapse, Sukhoi was still churning out aircraft for both PLAAF, PLAN and IAF without any issues. As a matter of fact the MKI is still the second most advanced Flanker and was configured back in 1996-98.

Mig suffered because of competition from Sukhoi. They couldn't get big ticket deals from both Russia or the export market.

Notice that you are comparing PAKFA to F-35. PAKFA will be the high end in russian inventory while F-35 will be the low end in US airforce. That in itself should tell you about the gap.

Well, in terms of years taken the F-22 was introduced in 2005 and PAKFA will be in 2015. Pretty much the same as the gap between Flanker and Eagle.

The reason I compared it to the F-35 is because of the F-22's cancellation. Most of the R&D work that should have gone to make the F-22 better in later blocks will never happen again. There will be a F-22A and the C version will only be in terms of avionics upgrades and not in airframe upgrades. There won't be a F-22E version either, or the FB-22 version. It is obvious F-35 will see such upgrades and hence is a more logical comparison. PAKFA will obviously see block upgrades like the Flankers did.

Not to mention F-35 is almost here while PAKFA are years away.

Sorry but F-35A will only receive a proper IOC in 2019. That's 4 years after PAKFA's IOC. Even the earlier IOC date of 2016 is after PAKFA's IOC date. As a matter of fact J-20 may see IOC before F-35A. The other versions will follow after F-35A.

 

[average american]

Designs for the PAK-FA have already been frozen by the Sukhoi design bureau, which means that Indian aircraft engineers have already missed out on the critical knowledge curve of aircraft design. Also, the unequal status of the Indian and Russian aviation industries means India will be the junior partner contributing very little except finance. "So if we have missed out on the design phase, we have to analyze the cost-benefits of acquiring only super cruise and stealth technology for $ 10 billion," asks Air Vice Marshal Kak.

This was in 2008....Sukhoi/HAL FGFA a Indian Stealth Fighter | Defence Aviation

According to how you look at it the F22 and F35 are either the 5th and 6th or 6th and 7th generation of operational stealth planes as well as a dozen other prototypes.
There are hundreds of differant areas concerning stealth to consider.

Heres the bottom line at least the way I see it,, The US has always had the number one tech stuff compared to russia but it is much more expensive. If we got the idea that the Pak-fa was anywhere close to the F-22 we wouldn't keep all of the design features a secret. We would agree to sell the F22 to our closest allies,, we dont even trust them with the technolog. Hell the f-35 isn't anything close to F22 nothing is and while the russians area still developing 5th gen america is building 6th gen boeing is working on a pro type right now and several drones have been designed with aa capability the f22 should mark the end of man aa planes in the us

 

[p2prada]

Designs for the PAK-FA have already been frozen by the Sukhoi design bureau, which means that Indian aircraft engineers have already missed out on the critical knowledge curve of aircraft design. Also, the unequal status of the Indian and Russian aviation industries means India will be the junior partner contributing very little except finance. "So if we have missed out on the design phase, we have to analyze the cost-benefits of acquiring only super cruise and stealth technology for $ 10 billion," asks Air Vice Marshal Kak.

This was in 2008....Sukhoi/HAL FGFA a Indian Stealth Fighter | Defence Aviation

Regardless India did go ahead with the program. We are even developing an IAF specific version.

Plenty for our fledgling industry to learn from this program.

 

[ice berg]

Actually the design centers did not get hit by the collapse. It was the manufacturing industry that was hit. After the collapse, Sukhoi was still churning out aircraft for both PLAAF, PLAN and IAF without any issues. As a matter of fact the MKI is still the second most advanced Flanker and was configured back in 1996-98.

Mig suffered because of competition from Sukhoi. They couldn't get big ticket deals from both Russia or the export market.



Well, in terms of years taken the F-22 was introduced in 2005 and PAKFA will be in 2015. Pretty much the same as the gap between Flanker and Eagle.

The reason I compared it to the F-35 is because of the F-22's cancellation. Most of the R&D work that should have gone to make the F-22 better in later blocks will never happen again. There will be a F-22A and the C version will only be in terms of avionics upgrades and not in airframe upgrades. There won't be a F-22E version either, or the FB-22 version. It is obvious F-35 will see such upgrades and hence is a more logical comparison. PAKFA will obviously see block upgrades like the Flankers did.



Sorry but F-35A will only receive a proper IOC in 2019. That's 4 years after PAKFA's IOC. Even the earlier IOC date of 2016 is after PAKFA's IOC date. As a matter of fact J-20 may see IOC before F-35A. The other versions will follow after F-35A.

Almost every industry got hit because of the collapse. The differences lie in the degree of slow down.
You can design the best fighter in the world, but if you cant manufacture it....

The recent call for modernization is proof enough.

The 2015 time table is high unlikely. PAKFA first flew in what 2010? They are not gonna get everything right in 5 years.

They have never stated that it will be on par with F-22 either.

 

[p2prada]

According to how you look at it the F22 and F35 are either the 5th and 6th or 6th and 7th generation of operational stealth planes as well as a dozen other prototypes.
There are hundreds of differant areas concerning stealth to consider.

Good. Then can you explain how you arrived at this point.

What are the different areas?

Heres the bottom line at least the way I see it,, The US has always had the number one tech stuff compared to russia but it is much more expensive. If we got the idea that the Pak-fa was anywhere close to the F-22 we wouldn't keep all of the design features a secret. We would agree to sell the F22 to our closest allies,, we dont even trust them with the technolog. Hell the f-35 isn't anything close to F22 nothing is and while the russians area still developing 5th gen america is building 6th gen boeing is working on a pro type right now and several drones have been designed with aa capability the f22 should mark the end of man aa planes in the us

Every country has secrets. F-22 is not something your closest allies can afford. Most will be lucky to buy the significantly cheaper F-35.

Btw, there are no A2A drones at F-22s level. Come back to Earth.