F-35 Joint Strike Fighter

Jameson Emoni

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You missed the point, it is not F-35 dropping cruise missile but intercepting Tu-160 dropping cruise missiles. F-35 will not have the legs to intercept them at launch point without drop tanks thereby ruining its stealth.
I read your post quite a few times in an attempt to understand what you were saying but alas I still misunderstood :) It is clear now though. It seems like you are talking about interception of the cruise missile fired by Tu-160. Well, in order to intercept the cruise missile fired by Tu-160, the F-35 will approach it from an opposite general direction; it will not wait for the Tu-160 to pass it by and fire a cruise missile, and then chase it. This is why it is called an interception not a chase.

As far as handling the drag of a drop tank is concerned, if F-35 has more thrust than F-16 then it is quite obvious that F-35 will be able to handle the drag better than F-16. Same logic will apply when comparing against Rafale. And of course, aerodynamic design of the drop tank will also play a vital role in overcoming the drag.
 

Bhurki

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As far as handling the drag of a drop tank is concerned, if F-35 has more thrust than F-16 then it is quite obvious that F-35 will be able to handle the drag better than F-16. Same logic will apply when comparing against Rafale. And of course, aerodynamic design of the drop tank will also play a vital role in overcoming the drag.
I dont think F35 requires drop tanks other than for extended ferry range while moving between bases.
Internal fuel F35 = 8400 kg
Rafale Internal fuel (4700kg) + 3 x 2kL tanks ( 1600 kg )= 9500 kg ( not to mention tanks weight and increased drag)
F16 internal fuel (3200 kg) + 2 x 600ga tanks ( 1800 kg) + 1x 300ga tank =7700 kg
You could count the extra CFT but they just cut into mission loadout weight...
Thats the beauty of F35, it looks the same while weighing 13 tons or 24 tons, because it carries everything inside..
 
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Armand2REP

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I read your post quite a few times in an attempt to understand what you were saying but alas I still misunderstood :) It is clear now though. It seems like you are talking about interception of the cruise missile fired by Tu-160. Well, in order to intercept the cruise missile fired by Tu-160, the F-35 will approach it from an opposite general direction; it will not wait for the Tu-160 to pass it by and fire a cruise missile, and then chase it. This is why it is called an interception not a chase.

As far as handling the drag of a drop tank is concerned, if F-35 has more thrust than F-16 then it is quite obvious that F-35 will be able to handle the drag better than F-16. Same logic will apply when comparing against Rafale. And of course, aerodynamic design of the drop tank will also play a vital role in overcoming the drag.
The F-35A with max internal fuel is only 2200km range, combat radius only 1100km, Russian cruise missiles drop at over 3000km from their target. Without drop tanks it will never be able to intercept the Tu-160 much less chase it down. Once the missiles are dropped, the chances of stopping them drops to zero. The bomber must be intercepted before the launch point.

This is yet another reason why the F-35 cannot replace the F-22. It doesn't have the range, the supercruise speed or the ability to get there without drop tanks to make it an effective interceptor. In this mission it is a complete and total failure. Speaking of the UK's F-35Bs, that is the biggest joke of all. :)
 

Wolfhound

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The F-35A with max internal fuel is only 2200km range, combat radius only 1100km, Russian cruise missiles drop at over 3000km from their target. Without drop tanks it will never be able to intercept the Tu-160 much less chase it down. Once the missiles are dropped, the chances of stopping them drops to zero. The bomber must be intercepted before the launch point.

This is yet another reason why the F-35 cannot replace the F-22. It doesn't have the range, the supercruise speed or the ability to get there without drop tanks to make it an effective interceptor. In this mission it is a complete and total failure. Speaking of the UK's F-35Bs, that is the biggest joke of all. :)
Yeah, when Lockheed designed the F-35 to be an interceptor, I'm sure they were disappointed. Especially against mach 3 Rafales
 

asianobserve

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The F-35A with max internal fuel is only 2200km range, combat radius only 1100km, Russian cruise missiles drop at over 3000km from their target. Without drop tanks it will never be able to intercept the Tu-160 much less chase it down. Once the missiles are dropped, the chances of stopping them drops to zero. The bomber must be intercepted before the launch point.

This is yet another reason why the F-35 cannot replace the F-22. It doesn't have the range, the supercruise speed or the ability to get there without drop tanks to make it an effective interceptor. In this mission it is a complete and total failure. Speaking of the UK's F-35Bs, that is the biggest joke of all. :)
Neither the F-22 nor Rafale with 3 EFTs nor any of the current 4th gen fighters with EFTs can intercept Tu-160 lunching Kh-55SM as that missile has a range of 3,000 km range if a TU-160 is able to find and out-of-reach launching position.

So your argument about F-35 is nonsense as it applies to all current fighters.

But you consider real-World scenarios where Tu-160s will opetatd from:

1. In Europe, I'm sure NATO has already some laid out a defensive strategy against it as early as the 1980s. But recently NATOs defenses has only gotten more robust with the addition of AEGIS ashore in Poland and Romania that can be equipped wiyh SM-6.

2. In Asia against Japanese targets their territories are close to each other. Unless Tu-160 lunches from within Russia then Japanese, US and Korean fighters can intercept it.

But granting that a TU-160 lunchesbits KH-55SM from its max range from deep in Russian territory then allied AEGIS systems both on ships and ashore will be the first line of defense. Then THAAD and Patriot.

Note that KH-55SM is an old cruise misdile that has been long known to American and allies. So they already have robust measutes to counter it.

3. Against the US mainland, well it'll escalate pretty quickly. I don't think Russia will do it. And if it does it then a Tu-160 then NORAD will take care of it.

So again, stop these nonsense. Neither Rafale with 3 EFTs and A2A weapons will be able to intercept a Tu-160 from 3000 kilometers away on a one-on-one scenario. Besides, Rafale under that load will not fly fast enough due to weight and drag penalties to get to station on time. A clean F-35 can fly faster.

More importantly, a cruise missile attack from Tu-160 from Russia will be a declaration of war and will most likely turn nuclear. So I don't think it's going to happen.

As I said yesterday, the Russians were simply out to get cheap propaganda tricks on the F-35.
 
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asianobserve

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Another thing. Both KH-55SM and Kaliber are subsonic missiles and can be shot down even by AMRAAM. The F-35 has very good Look down radar and EOTS and DAS.
 

asianobserve

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UK's F-35Bs, that is the biggest joke of all. :)

You wish. Just look back in history at how F-35Bs predecessor Harrier's (subsonic) record in the Falklands war. Outnumbeted 6-to-1 it fought off successfully a more superior forces, some supersonic, of IAI Daggers (Mirage V), A-4s, Super Etendards and Mirage IIIs.


Now, F-35B is a vastly different beast compared to 4th and 4.5th gen fighters it's likely to face. It's stealth and 360 degrees visual and electronic sensors and EW will make quick work of enemies.
 

asianobserve

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As a matter of fact the first A2A combat in the Falklands war was between superior supersonic Mirage Vs and subsonic Harriers. Guess who's the winner? The Harriers!


The only thing that truly scated the Brits in that war were the French Exocets. But the French did the right thing.... :truestory:
 

Armand2REP

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You wish. Just look back in history at how F-35Bs predecessor Harrier's (subsonic) record in the Falklands war. Outnumbeted 6-to-1 it fought off successfully a more superior forces, some supersonic, of IAI Daggers (Mirage V), A-4s, Super Etendards and Mirage IIIs.
The British lost 7 ships and 35 aircraft... I hardly call that a successful defence especially when they were protected by a picket of SAMs. If France hadn't cut off Exocet the entire RN would have been at the bottom of the ocean.

 
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Bhurki

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The British lost 7 ships and 35 aircraft... I hardly call that a successful defence especially when they were protected by a picket of SAMs. If France hadn't cut off Exocet the entire RN would have been at the bottom of the ocean.
24 out of those 35 aircraft were MR helicopters.
Real loss was about 10 fighters and 5 ships.
All this was while fighting 10,000km away from home and close to 500 km from enemy bases.. Not to mention Royal forces were in decline since its last engagements.
 

Wolfhound

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The unique abilities of the Harrier allowed them to hold their own, far from home. Now they have a superior plane. How did the Argentina military fare?
 

asianobserve

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The British lost 7 ships and 35 aircraft... I hardly call that a successful defence especially when they were protected by a picket of SAMs. If France hadn't cut off Exocet the entire RN would have been at the bottom of the ocean.


You obviously don't know what your're talking about. The UK only sent 6 Harriers in a cargo ship at first and then added 4 more. Later on they added more to addrrss losses. But these Harriers wrecked the Argentian American and French high performance planes.

https://www.airspacemag.com/military-aviation/air-war-in-the-falklands-32214512/
 

BON PLAN

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It's funny that in every fighter tender competition in Europe that pits super duper Spectra-super powered Rafale against non-FOC F-35 the F-35 always wins. Sometimes France even offers Billions in money-back guarantees like in Belgium, where EU's capital Brussels is located, yet Rafale still lost. It gets to a point now that whenever F-35 joins in the competition France would make sure to withdraw Rafale and then cry all the way.

Surely, all these very able, professional, experienced Air Forces can't be wrong in always finding super duper Rafale to be always short against "FUCK" F-35... :cool3:
You perfectly know that a fighter purchase is mainly a political choice. See in Switzerland, with the leaked eval report : Politics choose the worst competitor !

The purchase of a US plane is like to purchase a small place under the US deterrence umbrella.

But this thread is not about the political merits of the F35, but more on its real military effects. And 13 years after pre serial flight, this plane will not be FOC until 5 more years. If all is doing well, and it's not assured.
 

BON PLAN

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Another very cheap anti F-35 propaganda, perhaps the cheapest of them all!

What is not being mentioned is the fact that despite being slightly faster than F-35s, no Tu-160 can outrun F-35 sensors from EOTS, DAS and radar (I'm 100% sure though that none of the 2 F-35s turned on their radars in that intercept). So while probably the F-35s did not give chase, (why would they they're just there to make known their presence?) the TU-160 remained in their HMDs and thus within the F-35 pilots' visions perhaps all the time it was airborne.


Ah, Russian cheapness! They're better at concocting fantasies than engineering and fixing their planes that routinely crashes!
:pound:
Just facts.
A mach 2 class bomber against a mach 1.5 (and some say less than that) fighter.

I'm afraid that F35 pilots will regularly lose their face when trying to counter russian jets. In speed and in agility.
 

asianobserve

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The unique abilities of the Harrier allowed them to hold their own, far from home. Now they have a superior plane. How did the Argentina military fare?
Actually the Royal Navy high command took a blesk view on the prospects of Harrier. Initially, they thought Harrers squadton will loose 1 fighter a day to much superior Argentinian fighyers.
 

asianobserve

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Just facts.
A mach 2 class bomber against a mach 1.5 (and some say less than that) fighter.

I'm afraid that F35 pilots will regularly lose their face when trying to counter russian jets. In speed and in agility.
Just a fact - neither can Mach 1.7 Rafale catch a Mach 2 bomber if it comes to a chase.

But air combat is not really about giving chase.
 
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asianobserve

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Interestingly, none of the Harriers were downed in A2A combat. All British harrier losses were due to SAMs and AAAs as they provided CAS.
 

Immanuel

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Service cieling of the F-35 is 10k+ feet more than the Rafale which also allows for longer range launch of the Meteor as well (to be integrated soon), heck Rafale isn't the best for long range interceptions.

Niggas talk like there are many aircraft out there that can match the speed. For the moment only the F-15 speed demon can keep up with such fast aircraft.
 

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