"F-22 raptor " to India ?

[tarunraju]

They're just dangling it as a carrot. They dangled F-35 CTOL as a carrot for F-18F to win MMRCA. They're not even willing to share F-22 with their NATO allies. The only way they're going to give us F-22 is if there's an imminent prospect of a 2-front war for India, which would destabilize America's Asian pivot.

 

[Panjab47]

F22 production line was closed down by Obama no more of those ever. Don't know why people don't get that, they probably mean using cheap Indian labor for upgrades.

 

[Nuvneet Kundu]

Yeah in few years we will have ...

F 22
F 35
M777
AH 64
Chinook
Akula 2
S 400
PAK FA
AMCA
E 2 Hawkeye
Super Sukhoi
Naval Rafales
Predator
Reapor
LPD
Armata
Jevlin



Any more chutyapa to add ?

Notice that most of these are aerial platforms that the IAF is responsible for recommending at the expense of domestic industry.

As long as that Chutiyappa called IAF exists in its current form, this will continue. Don't be surprised if French and American pilots are imported to fly IAF planes, after all there is nothing Indian about the IAF. It's just a contracting and consulting agency whose job is to tell the government which foreign equipment to buy. Might as well start buying pilots.

They're just dangling it as a carrot. They dangled F-35 CTOL as a carrot for F-18F to win MMRCA. They're not even willing to share F-22 with their NATO allies. The only way they're going to give us F-22 is if there's an imminent prospect of a 2-front war for India, which would destabilize America's Asian pivot.

The only thing the US needs from India from the point of view of their pivot is a few bases. They have enough military strength of their own to manage all nations on the planet provided India grants them access to military bases on Indian soil. I don't think they are willing to make any compromises to win India's friendship or to build Indian military capacity.

We must understand why the US considers China as an enemy? has China ever fired a bullet at them? are they issuing daily threats like N.Korea does? no. Then what's the reason for the 'imminent conflict' scenario that the US propounds despite no provocation from China? it's because the US doesn't want an Asian power to emerge. In that context, why do some of you think that the US will favor India to defeat China? are the US so stupid that they would defeat one Asian power to give birth to another Asian power? what do they get out of that? nothing. Their only goal is to prevent ANY Asian power from rising. At the most they would give us stuff that would allow us to keep squabbling, but nothing drastic that would tilt the strategic edge in our favor. When you look at it that way, there's not a lot that the US has to offer to India.

Yes, India can get strategic weapon systems from the US if we are willing to compromise our 'strategic sovereignty'. If we are willing to exchange sovereignty for weapons, then what's the use of those weapons, considering we have already given up the only thing that was worth fighting for?

It's going to be all stick, no carrot for us.

 

[Srinivas_K]

Notice that most of these are aerial platforms that the IAF is responsible for recommending at the expense of domestic industry.

As long as that Chutiyappa called IAF exists in its current form, this will continue. Don't be surprised if French and American pilots are imported to fly IAF planes, after all there is nothing Indian about the IAF. It's just a contracting and consulting agency whose job is to tell the government which foreign equipment to buy. Might as well start buying pilots.



The only thing the US needs from India from the point of view of their pivot is a few bases. They have enough military strength of their own to manage all nations on the planet provided India grants them access to military bases on Indian soil. I don't think they are willing to make any compromises to win India's friendship.

We must understand why the US hates China? has China ever fired a bullet at them? are they issuing daily threats like N.Korea does? no. Then what's the reason for the 'imminent conflict' scenario that the US propounds? it's because the US doesn't want an Asian power to emerge. In that context, why do some of you think that the US will favor India to defeat China? are the US so stupid that they would defeat one Asian power to give birth to another Asian power? what do they get out of that? nothing. Their only goal is to prevent ANY Asian power from rising. At them most they would give us stuff that would allow us to keep squabbling but nothing drastic that would tilt the strategic edge in our favor. When you look at it that way, there's not a lot that the US can offer to India.

It's going to be all stick, no carrot for us.

They won't get the bases, but India will gain the technology and expertise.

 

[Nuvneet Kundu]

They won't get the bases, but India will gain the technology and expertise.

What kind of arrangement do you think it will be where India get's everything it wants without giving anything to the US? why would the US agree to such a deal? Which strategic objective of the US does it fulfill to let India have top of the line US systems? their other asset, Allah's own shithole a.k.a Pakistan will be directly threatened if India becomes too powerful. Consider this, they have given us one junk amphibious landing craft called Jalashwa, and even that ship is required to be inspected every year by US military men to make sure that India hasn't sold it to anyone else. That's the level of intrusiveness or shall we say, distrust. Imagine how they will treat us if they give us F22?

It is a good thing to buy some 5 to 10 raptors and operate for top secret missions.

These planes require an ecosystem of their own considering training, spare parts, maintenance, weapons cache. Consider the cost of creating the ecosystem for just 5 planes. And consider the risk that the US will have to take to sell us just 5 planes, they might be worried about reverse engineering. These guys are shying away from selling even basic artillery systems like M777, are they going to be generous with F22s?

 

[Srinivas_K]

What kind of arrangement do you think it will be where India get's everything it wants without giving anything to the US? why would the US agree to such a deal? Which strategic objective of the US does it fulfill to let India have top of the line US systems? their other asset, Allah's own shithole a.k.a Pakistan will be directly threatened if India becomes too powerful. Consider this, they have given us one junk amphibious landing craft called Jalashwa, and even that ship is required to be inspected every year by US military men to make sure that India hasn't sold it to anyone else. That's the level of intrusiveness or shall we say, distrust. Imagine how they will treat us if they give us F22?



These planes require an ecosystem of their own considering training, spare parts, maintenance, weapons cache. Consider the cost of creating the ecosystem for just 5 planes. And consider the risk that the US will have to take to sell us just 5 planes, they might be worried about reverse engineering. These guys are shying away from selling even basic artillery systems like M777, are they going to be generous with F22s?

India is not a push over. US has business interests, India is an emerging market for them.

India needs investments and technology and US needs market access. Like the china of 2000's.

India's AMCA is what IAF is looking at, not F 35 or F22, But for AMCA program to go smoothly Indian needs tech. and it comes when we buy some equipment as well as show market for their goods.

India is bigger giant, India is always in superior position vis-a-vis Pakistan. But with China's rise India has catch up to do.

India selected Rafale as MMRCA, signed PAK-FA agreement and looking to get some technologies for AMCA, If USA is willing to give it then we have to take it.

India has Russia, France and Israel as reliable partners, any advanced tech. from US is welcome.

Plus they want to establish R&D facilities through JV's since it is cheaper here, remember IT revolution in India happened in 1990's. But this time we will not be offering services but we will have own R&D base and corporates which will produce world class products if we grab the chance and develop our infra and tech. skills.

US is unreliable but India has good options in the form of France and Russia. Indians are no fools to fall for US.

 

[Nuvneet Kundu]

US is unreliable but India has good options in the form of France and Russia. Indians are no fools to fall for US.

It's not just glib that I am worried about, it's the brute force bullying that makes us vulnerable. Consider the 3 Billion $ Mistral ship deal that Russia had already paid in full to buy the 2 amphibious ships from France. The US literally bullied them to stop it.

My objection to JVs with US is not technical, it's political. Consider the fact that they refuse to cancel the F16 deal to Pakistan despite our objections. They refuse to stop pumping in IMF money into Pakistan, the block India from joining any peace deal in Afghanistan. How can you make the distinction of economy, national interest? If we do that we are only playing into their hands. We should attach all their transgressions and use our economic might as a leverage to get strategic concessions. Trying to be too objective and saying "oh they are hitting us strategically but economy and security are different things so we can have economic relations while they keep hitting us" doesn't help us. It's like saying "you cut my leg but at least I have my hands intact so let me shake hands with you, after all hands and legs are different entities"

These days every instrument of national policy is a tool of war, especially economy. We have cheap labor, huge market, that gives us great leverage over everyone. People want to set up manufacturing plants in India to reduce the cost of their weapons systems. We should use this, instead of blowing away the opportunity by voluntarily drawing a dichotomy between business and defense. It is in our interest to hyphenate the two. If you de-hyphenate it then you are allowing them a free pass and they will continue to antagonize you. We must tell them, mend your behavior then we can talk.

What strategic concessions have they made for us to let them have a piece of our economic cake? Support for Pakistan is at an all time high.

 

[Kshatriya87]

LoL. F-22 - Make In India ?? Never gonna happen. They are not even selling it to anyone, forget India.

Although, having a couple of these will be very beneficial for India to make surveillance flights over PoK and maybe carry out some offensive strikes.

 

[Nuvneet Kundu]

LoL. F-22 - Make In India ?? Never gonna happen. They are not even selling it to anyone, forget India.

Although, having a couple of these will be very beneficial for India to make surveillance flights over PoK and maybe carry out some offensive strikes.

We have Russian Foxbats and possibly MiG31 Foxhounds in our Tajik base. If we allow them to impose a status quo such that they will sell F16 to Pakistan and we will be forced to buy F22 then they will keep bullying us forever. They will coach us into thinking that the US sells a weapon to Pak and India needs to counter it by buying a more powerful version from the US. Once you allow them to play this game, their weapons exports to Pakistan will only increase. Tomorrow they will sell Tomahawk missiles to Pak to make India buy Patriot system. If you fall in their trap then this game will go on.

They need to be made to understand that their investment of giving weapons to Pak is going to bear no dividends from India in the form of reciprocal incremental weapons purchases. "If you sell something to Pak, we buy a counter-measure from some country other than USA", that should be our message. That serves as a deterrent to them on multiple levels.

 

[Srinivas_K]

It's not just glib that I am worried about, it's the brute force bullying that makes us vulnerable. Consider the 3 Billion $ Mistral ship deal that Russia had already paid in full to buy the 2 amphibious ships from France. The US literally bullied them to stop it.

My objection to JVs with US is not technical, it's political. Consider the fact that they refuse to cancel the F16 deal to Pakistan despite our objections. They refuse to stop pumping in IMF money into Pakistan, the block India from joining any peace deal in Afghanistan. How can you make the distinction of economy, national interest? If we do that we are only playing into their hands. We should attach all their transgressions and use our economic might as a leverage to get strategic concessions. Trying to be too objective and saying "oh they are hitting us strategically but economy and security are different things so we can have economic relations while they keep hitting us" doesn't help us. It's like saying "you cut my leg but at least I have my hands intact so let me shake hands with you, after all hands and legs are different entities"

These days every instrument of national policy is a tool of war, especially economy. We have cheap labor, huge market, that gives us great leverage over everyone. People want to set up manufacturing plants in India to reduce the cost of their weapons systems. We should use this, instead of blowing away the opportunity by voluntarily drawing a dichotomy between business and defense. It is in our interest to hyphenate the two. If you de-hyphenate it then you are allowing them a free pass and they will continue to antagonize you. We must tell them, mend your behavior then we can talk.

What strategic concessions have they made for us to let them have a piece of our economic cake? Support for Pakistan is at an all time high.

What leverage India has against USA?

But if India plays the game intelligently we will get technology, investments as well as strengths.

India's Power will rise and prosper if the potential is harnessed and efforts are put in. First we need to make a head start in that direction, grab as much as investments and technology co operation as possible, build the strength only then we can gain leverage.

 

[Srinivas_K]

We have Russian Foxbats and possibly MiG31 Foxhounds in our Tajik base. If we allow them to impose a status quo such that they will sell F16 to Pakistan and we will be forced to buy F22 then they will keep bullying us forever. They will coach us into thinking that the US sells a weapon to Pak and India needs to counter it by buying a more powerful version from the US. Once you allow them to play this game, their weapons exports to Pakistan will only increase. Tomorrow they will sell Tomahawk missiles to Pak to make India buy Patriot system. If you fall in their trap then this game will go on.

They need to be made to understand that their investment of giving weapons to Pak is going to bear no dividends from India in the form of reciprocal incremental weapons purchases. "If you sell something to Pak, we buy a counter-measure from some country other than USA", that should be our message. That serves as a deterrent to them on multiple levels.

India is not after weapons India is after the technology !

 

[Nuvneet Kundu]

What leverage India has against USA?

But if India plays the game intelligently we will get technology, investments as well as strengths.

India's Power will rise and prosper if the potential is harnessed and efforts are put in. First we need to make a head start in that direction, grab as mush as investments and technology co operation as possible, build the strength only then we can gain leverage.

Not co-operating itself is a leverage. "You amend your policies only then we allow your companies to enter Indian market." That's the leverage. You see what Mehbooba Musti is doing to the much more powerful BJP now, w.r.t government formation? that's how leverage is used. An entity, no matter how big in its own domain, when it enters someone else's home turf has to play by their rules. Mehbooba understands this. This is what I recommend India to do w.r.t US. Are you saying that leverage is only when India can send an aircraft carrier to California beach?

What's the point of getting technology at the cost of your strategic interests? The US gave Harpoon missiles to Pakistan recently, that effectively neutralizes our Naval edge by 60% because the missile defense required to defend against Harpoon is too costly and not all our ships are equipped. We are being fucked in all holes while you stand there with your hands spread begging for technology from them. They will give you F22, then they will give some type of missile shield to Pakistan, then what are you going to do? are you going to go to your local consumer forum to complain about it?

They gave a billion dollar last year to Pakistan for some new type of technology to build fortified bunkers to keep their nuclear missile safe. Now they are offering a sub-standard bunker buster munition carrying F22 to us which is no use. They gave the shield to Pakistan first, now they are selling a blunt sword to us. It's not tech transfer, it's babaji ka thullu.

 

[Kshatriya87]

We have Russian Foxbats and possibly MiG31 Foxhounds in our Tajik base. If we allow them to impose a status quo such that they will sell F16 to Pakistan and we will be forced to buy F22 then they will keep bullying us forever. They will coach us into thinking that the US sells a weapon to Pak and India needs to counter it by buying a more powerful version from the US. Once you allow them to play this game, their weapons exports to Pakistan will only increase. Tomorrow they will sell Tomahawk missiles to Pak to make India buy Patriot system. If you fall in their trap then this game will go on.

They need to be made to understand that their investment of giving weapons to Pak is going to bear no dividends from India in the form of reciprocal incremental weapons purchases. "If you sell something to Pak, we buy a counter-measure from some country other than USA", that should be our message. That serves as a deterrent to them on multiple levels.

Would you just prefer buying weapons off the shelf from countries like russia & france or would you prefer to get the tech in hands? I would anytime go for the latter. That is what can be achieved if we work with US smartly.

 

[Srinivas_K]

Not co-operating itself is a leverage. "You amend your policies only then we allow your companies to enter Indian market." That's the leverage. You see what Mehbooba Musti is doing to the much more powerful BJP now, w.r.t government formation? that's how leverage is used. An entity, no matter how big in its own domain, when it enters someone else's home turf has to play by their rules. Mehbooba understands this. This is what I recommend India to do w.r.t US. Are you saying that leverage is only when India can send an aircraft carrier to California beach?

What's the point of getting technology at the cost of your strategic interests? The US gave Harpoon missiles to Pakistan recently, that effectively neutralizes our Naval edge by 60% because the missile defense required to defend against Harpoon is too costly and not all our ships are equipped. We are being fucked in all holes while you stand there with your hands spread begging for technology from them. They will give you F22, then they will give some type of missile shield to Pakistan, then what are you going to do? are you going to go to your local consumer forum to complain about it?

You are missing the China factor here, non co operation only will give advantage to Pakistan and China nexus. But if you play this game and leverage strength from this with out compromising on any of the strategic interests, It is as good as winning. Indians are shrewd businessmen !

China and Pakistan are unpredictable.

 

[Kshatriya87]

Not co-operating itself is a leverage. "You amend your policies only then we allow your companies to enter Indian market." That's the leverage. You see what Mehbooba Musti is doing to the much more powerful BJP now, w.r.t government formation? that's how leverage is used. An entity, no matter how big in its own domain, when it enters someone else's home turf has to play by their rules. Mehbooba understands this. This is what I recommend India to do w.r.t US. Are you saying that leverage is only when India can send an aircraft carrier to California beach?

What's the point of getting technology at the cost of your strategic interests? The US gave Harpoon missiles to Pakistan recently, that effectively neutralizes our Naval edge by 60% because the missile defense required to defend against Harpoon is too costly and not all our ships are equipped. We are being fucked in all holes while you stand there with your hands spread begging for technology from them. They will give you F22, then they will give some type of missile shield to Pakistan, then what are you going to do? are you going to go to your local consumer forum to complain about it?

They gave a billion dollar last year to Pakistan for some new type of technology to build fortified bunkers to keep their nuclear missile safe. Now they are offering a sub-standard bunker buster munition carrying F22 to us which is no use. They gave the shield to Pakistan first, now they are selling a blunt sword to us. It's not tech transfer, it's babaji ka thullu.

Harpoon missiles can be tackled easily with Barak-8 misslies which will be inducted on all Indian naval ships in coming years.

 

[Nuvneet Kundu]

Would you just prefer buying weapons off the shelf from countries like russia & france or would you prefer to get the tech in hands? I would anytime go for the latter. That is what can be achieved if we work with US smartly.

If they are selling tech off the shelf then no problem. Like X $ for carbon composite technology, Y $ for stealth technology. No problem with that. But this excuse of buying american weapons as a means to get tech is false equivalence. We will be subsidizing their weapons industry on a large scale in the process, it is not in our interest. Don't buy 10 billion $ worth of weapons to get 1 billion $ worth of tech. Just buy the tech.

@Srinivas_K I heard Parrikar say "the cornerstone of our policy is better relation with US" which means that a subjective decision has been made to play along with the US even before objective decisions were evaluated on their individual merit. So if they choose American weapons now, it will be as a result of their desire to make friends with the US more than anything, of course they will market it to domestic public as an objective and independent decision.

The least we should ask from the US is to use their leverage to crush Italian objections to MTCR, and to reduce IMF cash flow to Pakistan. What is it that we have asked of them in exchange for the money we are giving them? nothing. Obama is still sitting with a pen in his left hand and his black dick in his right hand, just waiting to sign the deal to give 8 F16 to Pakistan. That's the only way this nergo gets boners these days, buy screwing Indian interests. If the cornerstone of our policy is appeasement then why elect a RW government? was the Congress doing a bad job of selling the country? The only difference is that Congress was selling our nation to Russia, BJP is selling it to USA. No other difference, no talk on any out of the box solutions to foreign policy issues, I'm hearing murmurs of finalizing the LOC as a border, same thing Vajpayee was going to do. They aren't even doing anything to do any internal churning, no change in Marxist syllabus, no UCC, nothing. On top of that Rajnath Singh gives statements everyday claiming that there is no ISIS in India because of Muslim family values.

Nothing is going our way, we are making compromises after compromises domestically and internationally.

 

[Kshatriya87]

Don't buy 10 billion $ worth of weapons to get 1 billion $ worth of tech. Just buy the tech.

Isn't that what I'm saying here. Buy the raptors + plus get the tech. Which other country has that kind of tech today? None. So get it from the only country that can offer it.

 

[Srinivas_K]

If they are selling tech off the shelf then no problem. Like X $ for carbon composite technology, Y $ for stealth technology. No problem with that. But this excuse of buying american weapons as a means to get tech is false equivalence. We will be subsidizing their weapons industry on a large scale in the process, it is not in our interest. Don't buy 10 billion $ worth of weapons to get 1 billion $ worth of tech. Just buy the tech.

@Srinivas_K I heard Parrikar say "the cornerstone of our policy is better relation with US" which means that a subjective decision has been made to play along with the US even before objective decisions were evaluated on their individual merit. So if they choose American weapons now, it will be as a result of their desire to make friends with the US more than anything, of course they will market it to domestic public as an objective and independent decision.

The least we should ask from the US is to use their leverage to crush Italian objections to MTCR, and to reduce IMF cash flow to Pakistan. What is it that we have asked of them in exchange for the money we are giving them? nothing. Obama is still sitting with a pen in his left hand and his black dick in his right hand, just waiting to sign the deal to give 8 F16 to Pakistan. That's the only way this nergo gets boners these days, buy screwing Indian interests. If the cornerstone of our policy is appeasement then why elect a RW government? was the Congress doing a bad job of selling the country? The only difference is that Congress was selling our nation to Russia, BJP is selling it to USA. No other difference, no talk on any out of the box solutions to foreign policy issues, I'm hearing murmurs of finalizing the LOC as a border, same thing Vajpayee was going to do. They aren't even doing anything to do any internal churning, no change in Marxist syllabus, no UCC, nothing. On top of that Rajnath Singh gives statements everyday claiming that there is no ISIS in India because of Muslim family values.

Nothing is going our way, we are making compromises after compromises domestically and internationally.

MTCR membership is not a big issue, India will get it.

India is vying for UNSC security council permanent seat, nuclear power status as well.

In this emerging world scenario, India has an important role to play, no need to worry India will carve out a noble position for itself in this world.

First India needs to gain strength, India is co operating with all the nations and US is one of them.

Parikkar statement is targeting Chinese. That is diplomacy.

Chinese and Pakistani regimes are unpredictable and have little accountability to their people. We should keep that in mind and develop our capabilities.
India should keep close relations with US and other allies in Asia until it gains strength vis-a-vis China.

 

[Nuvneet Kundu]

Isn't that what I'm saying here. Buy the raptors + plus get the tech. Which other country has that kind of tech today? None. So get it from the only country that can offer it.

No. What I'm saying is get the tech and apply it to AMCA. No need to buy Raptors in a package deal. For example recently we bought some sort of 'fast coating' technique from Russia for our assault rifles.

The claim of American 'best tech' is a folly. They also have made new radars to detect such stealth planes so they can neutralize our capability anytime they want to stop India from attacking Pakistan. The best weapons are ones we develop and the enemy doesn't know. In that sense it makes more sense to buy planes like Rafale which have terrain mapping than some F22 with stealth paint. Once you buy a top-of-the line tech from an outsider they know that will be your tip of the sphere and know your preparedness.

This is the first time I am hearing warfare being talked about in relation to whether one has access to top American weapons or not. If the Ottomans had waited to get best imported weapons to defeat Europe then they would have never won.

Take the tech, don't take entire weapon systems. The fact that we are buying entire Rafale itself is a failure and a big compromise. We can't make more compromises. We are stuck in a 'beggars can't be choosers' type of situations that is why we are forced to buy this, at least admit that instead of justifying it as a good decision. It is not a good decision it is a decision taken under pressure.

 

[Kshatriya87]

No. What I'm saying is get the tech and apply it to AMCA. No need to buy Raptors in a package deal. For example recently we bought some sort of 'fast coating' technique from Russia for our assault rifles.

You think they will just generously give us the tech without a package deal? No country will do that when it is that kind of tech. Fast coating tech etc. cannot be compared with 5th gen stealth tech.

The claim of American 'best tech' is a folly. They also have made new radars to detect such stealth planes so they can neutralize our capability anytime they want to stop India from attacking Pakistan. The best weapons are ones we develop and the enemy doesn't know. In that sense it makes more sense to buy planes like Rafale which have terrain mapping than some F22 with stealth paint. Once you buy a top-of-the line tech from an outsider they know that will be your tip of the sphere and know your preparedness.

The claim is good enough when it comes to F-22. Other weapon systems have other countries ahead of US. Neutralizing or reducing efficiency of F-22 can be done using russian / Chinese DRFM jammers as well. No need to buy american radar systems.

A rafale with terrain mapping + "stealth paint" would be better than a rafale with just terrain mapping, wouldnt' you say?

This is the first time I am hearing warfare being talked about in relation to whether one has access to top American weapons or not. If the Ottomans had waited to get best imported weapons to defeat Europe then they would have never won.

Yes, but they would have conquered that territory much faster if they had the tech.

Take the tech, don't take entire weapon systems. The fact that we are buying entire Rafale itself is a failure and a big compromise. We can't make more compromises. We are stuck in a 'beggars can't be choosers' type of situations that is why we are forced to buy this, at least admit that instead of justifying it as a good decision. It is not a good decision it is a decision taken under pressure.

Rafale was demanded by IAF when Modi said just use our indigenous aircrafts.