Defence Solutions For Artillery Batteries

[Patriot]

We need artillary of all types specially the one with light weight accurate with saturation precision FCM. As per our threat profile against China is conscerned we need ULH M777 & SLWH Pegasus 155mm , both these can be easily transported by C-130 & helicopters.

Pegasus howitzer design features
Pegasus is made of lightweight materials including titanium and high alloy aluminium. The materials used in the structure provide the strength and stability to resist the recoil force of a 155mm system.
The design incorporates several sub-systems such as an auxiliary power unit (APU), ammunition loading system, mechanical sight and recoil management system.
The 5.4t howitzer has an overall length of 10m, a width of 2.75m and a height of 2.4m. It can be operated by a crew of six to eight members.

Fire control, weaponry and ammunition

The gun can fire at a burst rate of three rounds in 24 seconds. The maximum rate of fire of the gun is four rounds a minute for three minutes and sustained rate is two rounds a minute for 30 minutes. Pegasus can fire extended range munitions up to a range of 30km.
It can be quickly prepared for deployment in less than 2.5 minutes. The advanced mechanical sight fitted on the gun can survive firing shocks of up to 90Gs.
The ammunition loading system powered by the APU automatically loads ammunition in to gun. This will reduce crew fatigue and enable the gun crew to operate the howitzer for long durations at a burst rate of three rounds in 24 seconds.

Engine onboard the SLWH Pegasus light weight howitzer

Pegasus is powered by an independent Lombardini 9LD625-2 air cooled diesel engine delivering a power output of 21kW.
The engine provides self-propelled capability at a speed of up to 12km/h for short-range. This feature gives the howitzer shoot and scoot ability to survive from the vehicles and artillery units equipped with fire-finder tracking radars.

For Truck Mounted Gun System my choice is Caesar 155mm, 52-calibre barrel

Caesar is equipped with a 155mm, 52-calibre barrel and can maintain a firing rate of six to eight rounds a minute in sustained fire, or three rounds in 15 seconds in rapid fire.
The FAST-Hit computerised fire management system, developed jointly by Nexter and EADS Defense Electronics, an Intertechnique ROB4 muzzle velocity radar system and a SAGEM Sigma 30 navigation system and global positioning system (GPS) are fitted so there is no requirement for topographical teams and goniometers.
The weapon has an automatic hydraulic laying system and the loading system is semi-automatic.
The gun can be set into and out of action in under a minute. The weapon system configuration and the provision of hydraulic drives give a time of approximately 30 seconds to take the Caesar out of battery.
A unit of eight Caesar self-propelled artillery vehicles can dispense, in less than one minute, more than 1t of projectiles, 1,500 bomblets or 48 smart anti-tank munitions on targets at ranges up to 40km.

Caesar-Munition
Munitions

Caesar is capable of using a wide range of ammunition for deployment against protected and unprotected targets, to create counter-mobility obstacles to block the manoeuvres of enemy armoured forces and to obscure or illuminate an area.
Caesar can fire conventional high-explosive (HE) or new-generation cargo rounds, which provide increased accuracy and terminal effectiveness.
The Ogre shell, which is in series production for the French Army, is an anti-tank and fragmentation bomblet dispensing round for use against relatively unprotected area targets such as command posts, artillery batteries, light armoured vehicles or logistic sites.
Ogre dispenses 63 bomblets, each fitted with a self-destruct mechanism. The bomblets are capable of penetrating more than 90mm of armour. A salvo of six Ogre shells releases 378 bomblets to saturate an area of 3ha at a range of 35km.


The Bonus round carries two smart anti-tank submunitions to a range of 34km. A top-attack flight profile delivers the explosively formed penetrator (EFP) warhead to the roof of the tank which is generally more vulnerable than the heavily armour-protected sides and front.
Base bleed shells provide a considerably increased range by filling the vacuum and reducing the turbulence behind the projectile without any loss of accuracy.
The maximum ranges are up to 42km for extended range full bore – base bleed (ERFB-BB) rounds.

Tracked SPH

Donar self-propelled autonomous air deployable howitzer

Armament
The DONAR is armed with a 155mm (52 cal.) cannon. DONAR's maximum range amounts to more than 56 kilometres. This 155 mm / 52. calibre artillery system combines a full automatic and independent firing module, fully automated loading and laying system with 30 shell magazine. Despite a marked reduction in weight and size, the gun module is operational without any additional stabilization and provides a 360-degree azimuth range. Maximum range of fire depends on projectile and charge combination. It is 30 km with standard and 40 km with rocket assisted projectile, however using the South African VLAP projectile a range of 56 km can be achieved. Maximum rate of fire is 6 rounds per minute; however this might be increased to 8 in production systems.

Thanks to the system's autonomy, the DONAR fits seamlessly into the networked and centralised command and control system (network-centric warfare). The Donar is fitted with NBC protection and automatic fire suppression systems. Standard equipment includes an inertial reference unit with a GPS (Global Positioning System) connection. It also has a muzzle velocity measuring system that feeds information into the onboard fire-control system. Krauss-Maffei Wegmann claims that the AGM can engage moving as well as stationary targets. A vehicle independent auxiliary power unit is installed as standard and this allows the complete AGM to be run with the main MLRS carrier engine shut down. The DONAR can be airlifted by the Airbus A400M, however it is too large for current C-130 Hercules and C-160.





There very nice info given in the below article by Dr. Carlo Kopp

Artillary in Digital Age
[PDF]http://www.ausairpower.net/SP/DT-Guided-Artillery-Oct-2010.pdf[/PDF]

 

[AVERAGE INDIAN]

I do not exactly remember the figures but do you really think that it is viable to shoot down $2,000 shells with $500,000 Iron Dome interceptors?

Israel can afford it as the entire country is the size of Chattisgarh. Not feasible for India. Maybe longer range David's Sling once it is available, where 1 battery can cover an entire city against moderate fire.

dude first it dosen't cost half a million like you said it cost 92 k per iron dome missile because the cost depends on rate of production of products , isreal only has 2 to 3 batteries which is enough for them to protect most of their vital installations , but when it comes to our country we need more so bringing the production cost down TOT and local production will further brings the cost down this is the most effective way to protect your artillery installations without blowing into a full scale war

 

[arnabmit]

The estimated cost of each Tamir interceptor missile is US$35,000–50,000. Compare it with the cost of an arty shell they are supposed to take down

@Allaudin, cost of each IAI Jumper/XM501 PAM/LAM missiles cost around $466,000 per missile. Too pricey IMHO...

dude first it dosen't cost half a million like you said it cost 92 k per iron dome missile because the cost depends on rate of production of products , isreal only has 2 to 3 batteries which is enough for them to protect most of their vital installations , but when it comes to our country we need more so bringing the production cost down TOT and local production will further brings the cost down this is the most effective way to protect your artillery installations without blowing into a full scale war

 

[AVERAGE INDIAN]

The estimated cost of each Tamir interceptor missile is US$35,000–50,000. Compare it with the cost of an arty shell they are supposed to take down

@Allaudin, cost of each IAI Jumper/XM501 PAM/LAM missiles cost around $466,000 per missile. Too pricey IMHO...

your right but the cost can be lowered if we can make it indigenously similar to any weapon systems once we are capable to make our own cost won't be a problem, like we all discussed on various weapons systems only way to bring a weapon cost down make it indegenously, more orders and saving precious lives of good men on the field its worth it

 

[arnabmit]

Even with 40% reduction in price by indigenous production, it would still cost about $20,000 each! That's 10 times more than the cost of a $2000 dumb shell!

Might make sense if we are fighting against opponents using $60,000 Excalibur shells though...

your right but the cost can be lowered if we can make it indigenously similar to any weapon systems once we are capable to make our own cost won't be a problem, like we all discussed on various weapons systems only way to bring a weapon cost down make it indegenously, more orders and saving precious lives of good men on the field its worth it

 

[captonjohn]

As technology is improving so fast it would be hard to say what would be the future of artillery but it would remain important faction at least for next 20-30 years from now. As technology is evolving rapidly the safest artillery units are not safe from counter measures and aerial attack. We have different types of geographical conditions in our borders hence using one solution can not work. We will have to use several options based on the requirements.

North East:

Tracked Artillery advantage:
This sector has very rough terrain and war would be fight at high altitude, here mobility is limited because of limited roads hence here I favor to use tracked artillery because wheeled artillery can not go too far until proper roads are not there and enemy can also spot them easily because to maintain mobility they will have to be near road to get mobile asap. Using tracked artillery would be more effective here because we can get better mobility without using roads too much.

Air power:
However this would not be enough and we should not depend upon the artillery. We should also maintain air superiority at any cost to defend our towed artillery units to shift balance to our side.


Western Border:

Wheeled Artillery:
Here wheeled artillery would be very useful because they can be mobile easily at low cost. Hence I believe here we should prefer wheeled artillery. But we should also use tracked artillery units in limited numbers where wheeled artillery is not effective. Again air power is very important and we can not win a war without maintaining air superiority.



Anti-Artillery Technology
At first we should get our hands on the technology to neutralize enemy artillery shells fired upon us. We should maintain a defense shield to defend our units from artillery firing. In the other hand conventional artillery technology is need to be upgraded and we should switch to smart artillery technology with guided with GPS.

 

[SilentKiller]

under processes they already made presentation for FICV but it appears that tender may be cancelled to make way for Russian BMP

Bad, hope BMP 3 fails and this time some indian manufacturer get the chance.
Tata IFV looks promising, i know for time being BMP 2 upgrades are need of time, but we can surely go with more money to build replacement of BMP 2.
This design from Tata is so good as it can easily developed for various roles such as.
1: IFV (tracked)
2 APC (wheeled)
3 105 mm light tank (Tracked)
4 105 mm SPG (tracked)
5 NAG missiles carrier (anti-tank Tracked)
6 105 mm wheeled Gun
7 Anti-Aircraft Gun based system (Tracked)
8 Medivac (wheeled and Tracked)
9 Akash missiles Carrier
etc.

 

[AVERAGE INDIAN]

Even with 40% reduction in price by indigenous production, it would still cost about $20,000 each! That's 10 times more than the cost of a $2000 dumb shell!

Might make sense if we are fighting against opponents using $60,000 Excalibur shells though...

you should also consider it is protecting the equipment deployed and ammunition , and the entire base from enemy fire from getting destroyed since even a dumb shell landing ona proper target and destroying it would cost us money so it is actually saving money by protecting inspite of the operational cost

 

[SilentKiller]

Well as per our threats this is what we can have (please feel free to correct).

1) Tracked SPG (155/52 mm) should have max range to 45-50 km (guided Ammo) - need considering flat train in West.
Track good for mobility in Deserts - Numbers 300 guns.
2) Tracked SPG (105 mm) max ranger 20-25 km (guided Ammo) - need in to be quickly Air deploy able.
Numbers - 300 gun (army)
Numbers - 100 guns (BSF)
3) Wheeled Mounted SPG (155/52 mm) should have max range to 40-45 km (guided Ammo) - Numbers - 500 Guns
4) Wheeled SPG (155/45 mm) in this role i guess best bet is Archer SPG - Max number - 300 Guns
5) Light weight Guns (155/45 mm) similar to M777- number needed is 800-1000 ( should replace all mountain and older 130 mm guns)
6) OFB bofors gun Towed SPG (155/45 - 500 and 155/52 - 500) must replace all older Towed guns.

 

[arnabmit]

Yeah, agree, but think of enemy launching 1000 arty rounds costing $2000 each and we launching 1000 missiles to intercept costing $20,000 each. Who do you think will blink first due to cost over run?

you should also consider it is protecting the equipment deployed and ammunition , and the entire base from enemy fire from getting destroyed since even a dumb shell landing ona proper target and destroying it would cost us money so it is actually saving money by protecting inspite of the operational cost

 

[sayareakd]

Well as per our threats this is what we can have (please feel free to correct).

1) Tracked SPG (155/52 mm) should have max range to 45-50 km (guided Ammo) - need considering flat train in West.
Track good for mobility in Deserts - Numbers 300 guns.
2) Tracked SPG (105 mm) max ranger 20-25 km (guided Ammo) - need in to be quickly Air deploy able.
Numbers - 300 gun (army)
Numbers - 100 guns (BSF)
3) Wheeled Mounted SPG (155/52 mm) should have max range to 40-45 km (guided Ammo) - Numbers - 500 Guns
4) Wheeled SPG (155/45 mm) in this role i guess best bet is Archer SPG - Max number - 300 Guns
5) Light weight Guns (155/45 mm) similar to M777- number needed is 800-1000 ( should replace all mountain and older 130 mm guns)
6) OFB bofors gun Towed SPG (155/45 - 500 and 155/52 - 500) must replace all older Towed guns.

105 mm has range of 17 km only

Ordnance Factory Board

 

[SilentKiller]

105 mm has range of 17 km only

Ordnance Factory Board

What if we use Guided ammo Laser/GPS guided one, range can always be extended by few Km and this gun needs to SPG mounted on new IFV chassis preferably on TATA IFV.

 

[AVERAGE INDIAN]

Yeah, agree, but think of enemy launching 1000 arty rounds costing $2000 each and we launching 1000 missiles to intercept costing $20,000 each. Who do you think will blink first due to cost over run?

we go selective protect what is most important there is no need to counter everything since all of them not going to hit vital installation if you say then there is no cost effective weapon on the planet that can protect when facing 1000 thousand incoming shells in a go thats why my first post i gave the heading considering present day technology

if you want to go berserk then forget about protection and hit back with everything you got like send the thousand shell back if you got anything left after counter attack since defending and protection comes at a price

 

[arnabmit]

Oh yes! check earlier posts...

My suggestions are NBS Mantis C-RAM as in Post#23

we go selective protect what is most important there is no need to counter everything since all of them not going to hit vital installation if you say then there is no cost effective weapon weapon on the planet that can protect when facing 1000 thousand incoming shells in a go thats why my frit post i gave the heading considering present day technology

 

[sayareakd]

one more important point i wanted to make is this

Pakistani army has made provision to save their gun crew from air bust ammo. Therefore we should play smartly. We should invest in smart sensor which attack the hot barrel of the gun after getting its thermal signature.

This works on same principle, it just goes after hot engine.

 

[AVERAGE INDIAN]

Oh yes! check earlier posts...

My suggestions are NBS Mantis C-RAM as in Post#23

OH well! i stick to iron dome

 

[sayareakd]

OH well! i stick to iron dome

Profile of Israeli enemy and our enemy is different, our enemy is states, which has superior and almost our equal tech. It is not home made rockets, they have nukes. So the Israeli solution cant be effective in our case.

 

[AVERAGE INDIAN]

Profile of Israeli enemy and our enemy is different, our enemy is states, which has superior and almost our equal tech. It is not home made rockets, they have nukes. So the Israeli solution cant be effective in our case.

i agree and i always discourage buying which is never cost effective like i mention the only way is indigenous solution and production of weapons systems like the iron dome or NBS Mantis C-RAM

 

[arnabmit]

Sir, images not visible...

one more important point i wanted to make is this

Pakistani army has made provision to save their gun crew from air bust ammo. Therefore we should play smartly. We should invest in smart sensor which attack the hot barrel of the gun after getting its thermal signature.

This works on same principle, it just goes after hot engine.

 

[Kunal Biswas]