Decision on $10 billion MMRCA deal soon

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p2prada

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Ohhh - is that the definition of "omni-role"? I thought it was just recon, air-defense and bombing! What else does an "omni-role" fighter do? Take my phone calls and seduce my secretary too? :D
There is little difference between an Omnirole and Multirole fighter when it comes to roles. We can simply categorize them as Air superiority, Ground strike and Recce.

But the reason why Rafale is called Omnirole instead of multirole is because the aircraft is designed from the ground up to work effectively in all roles. For eg: A F-15 is basically an Air superiority fighter, but with the right mix of avionics and armaments it can also handle bombing missions and also recce. But it was designed first and foremost as an air superiority fighter.

Similarly no matter how many BVR missiles the SH can carry it is primarily a strike fighter and accomplishes this role more effectively than the MKI or F-15E. Every nut and bolt is designed for a particular role and the F-35 is no different. Meaning even though it carries avionics meant for air to air profile it cannot fly like dedicated air superiority fighters like the Flanker or Eagle.

When the Rafale was first thought of France did not want the aircraft to accomplish only air superiority roles, it was designed from the ground up for all roles. Meaning the wing loading, thrust etc does not give it an edge against the EF-2000, but it can go head to head with other aircraft which claim an advantage in air superiority like the Mirage-2000. It may not be able to match the SH in ground strike, but it can do that role really well too. It's an "I am not an ace in any particular role but I can do all roles effectively" fighter. Thus it was given the designation Omnirole.

Similarly, the LCA is meant to be an air superiority fighter and performs best at high altitude while the JF-17 does better at lower altitudes.
 

ace009

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Ajai shukla is still at it? is he paid by LM?
 

Armand2REP

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He thinks F-35 will still be sold at $65 million and that J-20 will be a fighter threat, he is losing creditability fast with his Yankee promotionalism.
 

Rahul Singh

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Mr. Ajai Shukla is not loosing creditably nor should his colonel background needed to be suspected. Mr Ajai is simply talking future in the context of possible Indo-China war. And yes J-20 is a threat until unless proven otherwise. China has a reputation of getting things done no matter by hook or crook. They are greatest thieves of post WW2 world and that's all to not count their claims down. 500+ J-20 in PLAAF service will mean more than 250 FGFA and most importantly useless M-MRCA (on Chinese front). If anything he is failing to convince is how F-35 fits in this frame? How can we trust US, which enthusiastically started N-Deal and even more enthusiastically put it into ice box with just chance in presidentship? Where is the reputation let alone guarantee for always combat ready IAF F-35s?
 

sayareakd

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Good time for Defence journalist in India, I wish i was one................ BTW at this rate if they dont come up with final fighter, some fool is going to say buy, Junk Fighter.
 

Neil

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F-35 are useless for India...they are not even giving basic right to a country to own it...!!

we should actually increase are su30 orders and put half of MMRCA money into PAKFA...we are anyways late a little more late makes not much of the difference...
 

arya

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well MMRCA should complete on time , its hard to understand while rest all world know rafale is best option for IAF then what we are waiting for

well i personally wish we give importance to our lca3
 

Armand2REP

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Mr. Ajai Shukla is not loosing creditably nor should his colonel background needed to be suspected. Mr Ajai is simply talking future in the context of possible Indo-China war. And yes J-20 is a threat until unless proven otherwise. China has a reputation of getting things done no matter by hook or crook. They are greatest thieves of post WW2 world and that's all to not count their claims down. 500+ J-20 in PLAAF service will mean more than 250 FGFA and most importantly useless M-MRCA (on Chinese front). If anything he is failing to convince is how F-35 fits in this frame? How can we trust US, which enthusiastically started N-Deal and even more enthusiastically put it into ice box with just chance in presidentship? Where is the reputation let alone guarantee for always combat ready IAF F-35s?
No mate, he is advocating scrapping MMRCA to IAF's peril. A retender will take years. It needs an immediate replacement for the MiG flying coffins that are killing her pilots by the hundreds. India already decided on its 5th gen aircraft and he conveniently neglects to talk about it. He overplays the threat of the J-20. He also conveniently misquotes the price and capability of the Yankee fighter which is done out of misdirection to make his point. He is doing the same thing which killed Dr. Kopp's credibility at APA when his hatred of the F-35 turned him into a pawn of Russian State media.
 

p2prada

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Hmm, When did Kopp turn into a Russian pawn?

But yeah, he overplays the J-20 threat when we will be getting the PAKFA at the same time as they get their 5th gen.

F-35 for the Navy will be good, but what is the point if ToT is limited even with SH. For the numbers we are buying and for the size of our country we cannot run an air force if we cannot tweak the radar whenever we want to.
 

weg

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I can't believe he was once a colonel. He expects the US to deliver by 2015 when Australia will start getting full scale deliveries only in 2017.
F-35 delivers are being scaled back, first on principle to save money and again to account for cost overruns and design changes. The bottom line is f-35 will be delayed even longer. The true cost of a f-35 is going to be over $200million, fine for me, I was born in the UK where 25% of the F-35 is built, bad deal for India though.
 
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sayareakd

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Uncle has take nice time to give F35 lollipop when we are about to announce final of MRCA.
 

p2prada

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The true cost of a f-35 is going to be over $200million
Of course not. If F-35 is to be priced over $200million then current orders will have to be cut by more than half. People are scaling back orders does not mean it will be less than half the order placed.

If India gets into a deal now, it's going to be bad for us. But if we get into the deal in say 2014-15 period, when IN can sign a contract, then the price will be better managed by then. We could then be buying at around $100Million a piece without all the assorted bells and whistles.

Current prototypes are just around $200Million, it is obvious it will drop over time. As the articles state, the final price of the F-35 will come to about $80million when the last F-35 is delivered. Fly away prices are different from development prices.
 

Armand2REP

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Hmm, When did Kopp turn into a Russian pawn?
When he started getting paid for interviews with RT, Pravda and Izvestia to tell them how superior Russian kit is to the West.
 

weg

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Current prototypes are just around $200Million, it is obvious it will drop over time. As the articles state, the final price of the F-35 will come to about $80million when the last F-35 is delivered. Fly away prices are different from development prices.
Dream on. Prices on military equipment go up, not down. There have been studies recently on the F-35 and the conclusion is not good. Its a very difficult aircraft to make and needs a lot of work. Fly away prices this year are $207 million and those are not development aircraft, maybe the price will come down but the trend has been up with the increasing numbers built.

edit: wiki needs an update, numbers this year dropped from 32 to 30 (due to cost rises) so fly away cost is $221.44
 
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p2prada

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Dream on. Prices on military equipment go up, not down. There have been studies recently on the F-35 and the conclusion is not good. Its a very difficult aircraft to make and needs a lot of work. Fly away prices this year are $207 million and those are not development aircraft, maybe the price will come down but the trend has been up with the increasing numbers built.

edit: wiki needs an update, numbers this year dropped from 32 to 30 (due to cost rises) so fly away cost is $221.44
Like I said, you are clubbing dev prices with actual fly away prices. Did you forget Denmark's study which said the F-35 will be cheaper than the Gripen? Sure times change and costs have increased, but logically the cost is still enough to make it affordable to any air force looking at 5th gen tech.

Similarly Typhoon costs over $140million whereas actual fly away cost per piece is at the very least less than $100Million.

The price of a F-22 has come down to $120Million(2011 price) from the previously $140million(2006 price). Future orders will further decrease the price as production increases.

The production rate of the first 20 or 30 MKIs was $50Million and was reduced to $40-45Million. It increased again as raw material prices increased along with cost for development of new technologies.

With further orders, the costs will further reduce, ie, if India chooses the F-35 for the Navy and Japan, Singapore, S.Korea, Brazil, Finland, Taiwan, Spain and the Middle East follow suit then the cost would further reduce from the current estimated prices.

The prototypes 3 and 4 for PAKFA should easily cost between $150million and $200Million as well.

Currently, production cycle for F-35 is packed with orders. So, any Indian order will be available well after 2018. Small orders in the beginning will be expensive, but overall costs will be much lower, especially if we bring the production line to India. You underestimate our workforce, we work for peanuts.
 

p2prada

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When he started getting paid for interviews with RT, Pravda and Izvestia to tell them how superior Russian kit is to the West.
LOL. Never seen or read those interviews. Anyway I like Carlo Kopp when he talks technology. The minute he brings in F-35, it gets a bit stale.

His attempt to study J-20s RCS was quite hilarious. He completely omitted all aspects which actually contribute to RCS like edge diffraction and brought it up to the same level as the F-22 without even knowing the true dimensions of the J-20. :D
 

weg

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Similarly Typhoon costs over $140million whereas actual fly away cost per piece is at the very least less than $100Million.
Good comparison. Typhoon is a $40million aircraft, well it was until they delivered it.
You will be very had push to find anyone who really believes that the F-35 will be delivered in ten years time at $100Million. The SH costs $85M today and its very old tech in comparison. The US is a country that was developing armoured personnel carriers priced at $22.3million each before they cancelled it.
https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Expeditionary_Fighting_Vehicle

Does that sound like a country that can produce a aircraft as complex as the f-35 for three times the price of a APC?

Currently, production cycle for F-35 is packed with orders.
Expect massive cuts when the price tag comes along. The US can't afford it, neither can any other country

F-35s cost more than $100M each: U.S. official
http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/canadavotes2011/story/2011/03/29/cv-f35-costs.html

Earlier on Power & Politics, Conservative MP Laurie Hawn said Canada is buying the planes at the peak of their production, making them cheaper than the $133 million the U.S. estimates their jets will cost. Hawn also said the $133 million estimate is an average of three models being built, of which the Canadian jet is the cheapest.
P.S. $20million engines not included
 
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p2prada

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Good comparison. Typhoon is a $40million aircraft, well it was until they delivered it.
You will be very had push to find anyone who really believes that the F-35 will be delivered in ten years time at $100Million. The SH costs $85M today and its very old tech in comparison. The US is a country that was developing armoured personnel carriers priced at $22.3million each before they cancelled it.
Yes, and the MKI was supposed to cost $22Million. You cannot discount inflation. In 10 years time, the F-35 will be more expensive but what I am saying is it will cost less than $100million before it is adjusted for inflation.

EF costed a lot to develop and orders were few. Rafale is the same. F-35 costed as much as the EF, maybe a bit more but it's orders of 3000 will bring down the costs.

The F-22 costed a bomb to develop(more than the F-35), but the final cost today stands at $119Million with just 187 orders. Funny that. The F-35 will be cheaper than that.
 
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