Cold start or cold feet?

DivineHeretic

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MISSION complete even without using nasr.
The scatter does not mean running in every possible direction like a mob trying to flee the police but rather the concentrated strike corps breaking off into smaller units and seperating themselves by a fair distance,possibly batallion sized formations and continuing with the push or retreat as the situation demands. It does not mean the indefinite stalling of the offensive, rather the smaller formations may agresively push into the midst of the pak frontlines as that means the pak cant use their nuke. Its not a simple push and win concept you see.

Of course if Pak wants to nuke its forces then be my guest. In this scenario the pak army would probably surrender faster than the pak can assemble nukes. Who wants to be nuked by their own army?
 
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farhan_9909

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The scatter does not mean running in every possible direction like a mob trying to flee the police but rather the concentrated strike corps breaking off into smaller units and seperating themselves by a fair distance,possibly batallion sized formations and continuing with the push or retreat as the situation demands. It does not mean the indefinite stalling of the offensive, rather the smaller formations may agresively push into the midst of the pak frontlines as that means the pak cant use their nuke. Its not a simple push and win concept you see.

Of course if Pak wants to nuke its forces then be my guest. In this scenario the pak army would probably surrender faster than the pak can assemble nukes. Who wants to be nuked by their own army?
you changed your point very quick though you should also get it nasr is more mobile than troops.

leaving the nukes..how will india enter into pak when we have very huge numbers of troops along side the border?
with a capable air force even at the moment has more than 100 bvr capable fighter aircraft.
Since CSD is said to be limited to indian goals.how will they breach the pak armed forces..consider that there is no nasr around



before that read this.and tell me even with just deploying how india lost 27 times more troops?

2001–2002 India–Pakistan standoff - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 

Ray

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you changed your point very quick though you should also get it nasr is more mobile than troops.

leaving the nukes..how will india enter into pak when we have very huge numbers of troops along side the border?
with a capable air force even at the moment has more than 100 bvr capable fighter aircraft.
Since CSD is said to be limited to indian goals.how will they breach the pak armed forces..consider that there is no nasr around



before that read this.and tell me even with just deploying how india lost 27 times more troops?

2001–2002 India–Pakistan standoff - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Entering Pakistan with combat formation is no big deal.

It has been done in all wars.

So, I haven't got the point.

If you are talking about Op Parikrama, as I have said before, try putting a minefield in shifting sands. They shift. And if you know how a minefield is demined, you will understand the photo.

Even in the mountains, the mines come down from the slopes because of rains or movement of wild animals that loosen the soil.
 

DivineHeretic

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you changed your point very quick though you should also get it nasr is more mobile than troops.

leaving the nukes..how will india enter into pak when we have very huge numbers of troops along side the border?
with a capable air force even at the moment has more than 100 bvr capable fighter aircraft.
Since CSD is said to be limited to indian goals.how will they breach the pak armed forces..consider that there is no nasr around



before that read this.and tell me even with just deploying how india lost 27 times more troops?

2001–2002 India–Pakistan standoff - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Well I never changed my point, I just did not state it properly enough. My apologies.
Pak might have a huge number of troops on the border but fact remains that they being the defenders will have to spread their forces throughout their boundary with India,decreasing the density of forces per km. We being the attackers will have the advantage of choosing the time & zone of assault or invasion, meaning we can concentrate our forces and simply overrun or outmanuevre your positions. This is the logic of every major commander, from Alexander to Napoleon to Rommel.
Not to mention that we have over 200 aircraft dedicated to ground strike and CAS duties,and orders for over 200 armed helis/attack helis. This will enable us to penetrate your frontlines whether you believe it or not.

Another problem for the PA is that the new concepts i.e. CSD or whatever name you give it clearly identifies that it will be a surprise offensive with time between command order and invasion being under 48-72 hours without any prior declaration of war. This means that the PA will be hard pressed to know of an impending assault before the IA formations actually enter the Pak theatre. Combine that with the fact that ground strike will concentrate on communications network and particularly the command nodes, the PA HQ could well be kept in the dark as to the region or sector under attack. Another point to be noted is that the PA strike ormations are inland and will take take their sweet time to mobilise,meaning that the number of troops and equipment in the border is even, lower.
 

farhan_9909

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Entering Pakistan with combat formation is no big deal.

It has been done in all wars.

So, I haven't got the point.

If you are talking about Op Parikrama, as I have said before, try putting a minefield in shifting sands. They shift. And if you know how a minefield is demined, you will understand the photo.

Even in the mountains, the mines come down from the slopes because of rains or movement of wild animals that loosen the soil.
While the indians has always accused of pak being the offensive and india defensive

many indians might not agree with you on this
 

farhan_9909

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Well I never changed my point, I just did not state it properly enough. My apologies.
Pak might have a huge number of troops on the border but fact remains that they being the defenders will have to spread their forces throughout their boundary with India,decreasing the density of forces per km. We being the attackers will have the advantage of choosing the time & zone of assault or invasion, meaning we can concentrate our forces and simply overrun or outmanuevre your positions. This is the logic of every major commander, from Alexander to Napoleon to Rommel.
Not to mention that we have over 200 aircraft dedicated to ground strike and CAS duties,and orders for over 200 armed helis/attack helis. This will enable us to penetrate your frontlines whether you believe it or not.

Another problem for the PA is that the new concepts i.e. CSD or whatever name you give it clearly identifies that it will be a surprise offensive with time between command order and invasion being under 48-72 hours without any prior declaration of war. This means that the PA will be hard pressed to know of an impending assault before the IA formations actually enter the Pak theatre. Combine that with the fact that ground strike will concentrate on communications network and particularly the command nodes, the PA HQ could well be kept in the dark as to the region or sector under attack. Another point to be noted is that the PA strike ormations are inland and will take take their sweet time to mobilise,meaning that the number of troops and equipment in the border is even, lower.
Please mentioned the fighter aircraft that too more than 200 in number and didicated for CAS

CSD also mean india will enter limited numbers of troops.may be 20-30k

And your all aware of the fact that PA has also close to 7lac troops.for the chopper we already have more than 20k anza manpads with the soldiers.
PA must be prepared
PAF to ha is jin..remember in 2002 when indian searcher UAV had just crossed the border.and was shot down immediate..so IAF should never be taken as a threat.
IA as well

IN is something we should be worried about.and we lack decent submarine force and vessels as well.IN should always be considered as threat.IA as well but less

IAF should never be taken as threat considering there past history and training
 

Decklander

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@Farhaan_9909, How have you estimated 1000million deaths in India and just 80 million in Pakistan?
India has 10 times your area and five times your population so Pakistan has higher Population density compared with India. Than 40% of your area is Balochistan with just 5% of your population which means that nearly 190 million Pak population lives within the Indus valley Zone.
After considering these facts wud you still maintain your casualty figures? Your estimates show how stupid you people are and how ignorant your knowledge of your own nation is. Finishing off entire Pak population for us will not need more that 30 nukes of 200KT each and we have more than sufficient stock of them ready and loaded at any given time. we just need to do the pull the missiles to launch sites and complete the count down. which means a time of less than 30 mins. That is all it will take us. Just 30 mins to wipe out this cancer of earth called Pakistan.
 

Ray

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While the indians has always accused of pak being the offensive and india defensive

many indians might not agree with you on this
Why will many Indians find going into Pakistan is an impossibility since as you claim that the border is chockablock full of Pakistan troops.

If it were chockablock of Pakistan Army then how did Indian riposte sweep through Pakistan in the past?


As far as your other posts given an array of numerical statistics, numbers are not what decides. Numbers were always there even earlier.

I would not like to go into the details as to how a war is fought, but suffice it to say that if one reads through the previous wars, one would get the idea.
 
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DivineHeretic

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Please mentioned the fighter aircraft that too more than 200 in number and didicated for CAS

CSD also mean india will enter limited numbers of troops.may be 20-30k

And your all aware of the fact that PA has also close to 7lac troops.for the chopper we already have more than 20k anza manpads with the soldiers.
PA must be prepared
PAF to ha is jin..remember in 2002 when indian searcher UAV had just crossed the border.and was shot down immediate..so IAF should never be taken as a threat.
IA as well

IN is something we should be worried about.and we lack decent submarine force and vessels as well.IN should always be considered as threat.IA as well but less

IAF should never be taken as threat considering there past history and training
The aircraft dedicated for CAS: 120 Jaguar, 102 Mig 27, 51 mirage on double duty. So its actually more than 200.
As far as CSD is concerned do not delude yourself that much. It wont be a total of 20-30k troops launching invasion but rather each IBG will hold about 15k troops with there being 8 IBGs. And that is just the first initial phase. The rest of the formation i.e. The pivot corps numbering about 5 will begin the 2nd ohase to secure the territorycptured by the IBGs and provide relief and reinforcement if necessary to the IBGs. That puts the total number around 500000, pretty much enough to secure the aims of the offensive.

As for your rant manpads being enough for choppers, you will find that FLIR allows a gunship pilot to detect a hostile as far out as 8-12 km, well before the enemy can hear them, much less see them. With MMR radar, the gunship pilots can detect a mounted system as far out as 22km. Add to that the self defence suit, it becomes a lot more dificult to take down a chopper.

As for the IAF, well even Allah cannot correct your delusion.
 

Decklander

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Please mentioned the fighter aircraft that too more than 200 in number and didicated for CAS

CSD also mean india will enter limited numbers of troops.may be 20-30k

And your all aware of the fact that PA has also close to 7lac troops.for the chopper we already have more than 20k anza manpads with the soldiers.
PA must be prepared
PAF to ha is jin..remember in 2002 when indian searcher UAV had just crossed the border.and was shot down immediate..so IAF should never be taken as a threat.
IA as well

IN is something we should be worried about.and we lack decent submarine force and vessels as well.IN should always be considered as threat.IA as well but less

IAF should never be taken as threat considering there past history and training
You are again misinformed and seems to have forgotten Atlantique incident. IAF and IN are support arms, CSD has nuke option in built as I have stated many million times on this site. You have to be a fool to think that we will start CSD and than stop it for the fear of NASR or nukes etc. India has always shown to you that when it comes to all out war, we have always surprised and shocked you with our tactics and cecision making. remember 1965 war and opening of Lahore front. Remember 1971 war and bypassing all your built up defences to strom to Dhaka. remember 1999 and use of IAF and Heavy guns. If there is going to be 2013, remember the history and pray for your life we might surprise you in your nuke game. Your Allah will not come to your rescue as he has more real pious muslims in India than Pakistan.
 

LurkerBaba

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@Farhaan_9909, How have you estimated 1000million deaths in India and just 80 million in Pakistan?
India has 10 times your area and five times your population so Pakistan has higher Population density compared with India. Than 40% of your area is Balochistan with just 5% of your population which means that nearly 190 million Pak population lives within the Indus valley Zone.
This fact can easily be confirmed via satellite imagery. Here is a pic of the Subcontinent at night


Almost all settlements are in Punjab or along the Indus river. India is evenly distributed
 

Armand2REP

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And your source for this is?

Pakistan is obssesd with nukes..they would get the best available.

as i said before we are onto several megaton warheads now(above 10mt) we had achieved single mt benchmark in musharaf time
You haven't achieved anything without testing it and the only way you have is detonation. Only major powers like France have the simulation facilities to run new warhead tests. Even the UK has to use ours because they can't afford it.
 

DivineHeretic

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You are again misinformed and seems to have forgotten Atlantique incident. IAF and IN are support arms, CSD has nuke option in built as I have stated many million times on this site. You have to be a fool to think that we will start CSD and than stop it for the fear of NASR or nukes etc. India has always shown to you that when it comes to all out war, we have always surprised and shocked you with our tactics and cecision making. remember 1965 war and opening of Lahore front. Remember 1971 war and bypassing all your built up defences to strom to Dhaka. remember 1999 and use of IAF and Heavy guns. If there is going to be 2013, remember the history and pray for your life we might surprise you in your nuke game. Your Allah will not come to your rescue as he has more real pious muslims in India than Pakistan.
I've also heard of the inbuilt nuclear option within the CSD doctrine but always believed that it was about dealing with a nuclear strike and the tactics needed to force pak against nuking our battle units. Do you mean that there is a possibility of using TNWs by us on the battlefield stated in the CSD?

It would make perfect sense that we have the capability of TNWs based on the fact that Shakti tests had 2 tests in the sub kiloton range, and I assume that it has been refined further in the 15 years hence. But do we actually have space for their usage in our combat doctrine? My guess is that they would be used pre-emptively to destroy underground storage facilities of the Nukes and particularly the GHQ to wipe out the Nuclear command.
 

Decklander

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I've also heard of the inbuilt nuclear option within the CSD doctrine but always believed that it was about dealing with a nuclear strike and the tactics needed to force pak against nuking our battle units. Do you mean that there is a possibility of using TNWs by us on the battlefield stated in the CSD?

It would make perfect sense that we have the capability of TNWs based on the fact that Shakti tests had 2 tests in the sub kiloton range, and I assume that it has been refined further in the 15 years hence. But do we actually have space for their usage in our combat doctrine? My guess is that they would be used pre-emptively to destroy underground storage facilities of the Nukes and particularly the GHQ to wipe out the Nuclear command.
Our NFU policy very clearly states that India will retaliate with massive nuke force if India or its armed forces are LIKELY to be attacked by nuke weapons anywhr in the world. This means that an IBG even if inside Pak territory will remain covered by our NFU policy and the most important part is the word posted in capitals. This means that once we have credible reliable info that Pak is about to use nukes, we do not have to wait for them to launch one, we will strike with massive force on the basis of that info alone.
 

vishwaprasad

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first of all you should the difference between dud(india) and low yeild(pakistan)

on the other hand the dud claim of indian nuclear test by western were confirmed by indian scientist later..so it is confirmed that india at the moment don't have nukes or dud design's.courtesy is your dear nuclear scientist.

And No pakistani scientist has claimed so.so our first test had a yield of 35-41kt in 1998..when our development were not open
Mind it pakistan first warhead was developed in early 80's.

its been 14-15 years since than and deep investment into the field is made..the reason in the other threads i have already said that we are onto several megatons warhead capability(not 1megaton only)
Its you should know the diffrence between dud and low yeild....Santhanam clearly said that ONLY THERMONUCLEAR DEVICE COULD NOT ACHIEVE DESIRED YEILD....It was not a complete failure...besides what about other fission weapons....they performed as per expectations....

Santhanam, a former official with the Defence Research and Development Organisation, said that the thermonuclear or hydrogen bomb tests, the first and most powerful of the three tests conducted on May 11, 1998 - did not produce the desired yield.
No CTBT, India needs more nuclear tests: Santhanam - Hindustan Times

K Santhanam, former Defence Research and Development Organisation scientist, who has rubbished the nuclear test at Pokhran in 1998 told journalists that he believed India [ Images ] needed to conduct two more tests to perfect the thermo-nuclear technology required to make a Hydrogen bomb. Santhanam maintained that simulations or computer-based tests were not enough to perfect thermo-nuclear technology. His statements are an antithesis of the Indian governments' position on this issue.

The man who is dubbed as "maverick" by National Security Advisor M K Narayanan was addressing his first press conference on Monday at the Indian Women's Press Corps. Ashok Parthasarathy, former scienctific advisor to Indira Gandhi [ Images ] was also present. Parthasarthy met Leader of the Opposition L K Advani [ Images ] on Monday. Parathasarathy told media-persons that he had briefed the BJP leader about Santhanam allegations on the Pokhran nuclear tests which were carried out when the BJP was in power in 1998.

It was the rare moment, when Santhanam said unambiguously that India's nuclear test was a failure. Santhanam can't be dismissed because he has been in core team of nuclear scienctists for many years.
If Santhanam's claims are true then it will be an embarrassment not just for India's scientists but also for the nation who had taken huge pride and celebrated the event, diplomatic and security concerns will be altered as well.
Santhanam said the government's rejection of his charge is not surprising. He told media that the government was refusing to conduct a professional inquiry, it's like saying, "I have made up mind. Do not confuse me with facts."
Santhanam spoke fearlessly and did not evade questions but he was excited and tense while facing dozen cameras. He repeated all that he has been saying since the controversy has hit the headlines.
The ageing scientist's dry wit and sarcastic responses made the issue of nuclear science and the politics being played out, more complex to understand.
The government has come out firmly against Santhanam's charge which has multiple impacts on multiple issues. While countering the charge made by Santhanam, NSA M K Narayanan has said that the Atomic Energy Commission was asked to study the data of the 1998 nuclear tests again in the wake of the controversy over the efficacy of the hydrogen bomb. Narayanan has said that the last week, that the AEC had come out with an authoritative statement on the efficacy of the 1998 nuclear tests and no more clarifications were required from the government on this matter.
Santhanam said that Narayanan has not addressed the main concerns expressed by him in his column in The Hindu.Sathanam added, "Recourse to special pleading is considered fallacy in logic."

When asked to explain his cryptic position, Santhanam said, "When someone says, The rabbit I caught had three legs. When you question such a claim he will then say 'but the rabbit that I caught has three legs so believe me!"
The former nuclear scientist said the government's response is suppressing the facts and "suggesting to contrary.'He said in the matter of national security this kind of 'game' was unnecessary.
Santhanam called upon the government to form a panel of independent scientists and people with in-depth knowledge of the subject to verify the data from both sides again, while keeping the results classified.
During the press conference the most repeated question was why did he not speak before about the sensational failure of India's thermo- nuclear testing? Why now? Santhanam said, "Please note that the tests were conducted in May 1998.The DRDO was in charge of all the field instrumentations to measure acceleration and to record measurements from a variety of instruments and recorders. After the tests were over, we visited in (Pokhran, Rajesthan) the shafts where the thermo- nuclear device was detonated. We found that shafts by and large remained undamaged. So, we moved on to other shafts where the fission bomb was detonated. The fission bomb was estimated to be 20-25 kilotons. It left behind the large crater which was larger than the crater formed in 1974, when India's first peaceful nuclear test was conducted. I had some reservations about whether the thermo-nuclear device actually worked as per our expectations. I had serious doubts about that. We had to check and double check before we could arrive at the actual yields from the test. It was put in the classified report at the end of 1998."
Sathanam added, "Thereafter DRDO and Bhabha Atomic Research Center's scientists held a meeting. Despite fairly long discussion the two agencies agreed to disagree. Under these circumstances, the chairman of the meeting said he would discuss the matter with the minister and then decide on the future course of action. The Data was classified and the fact is that we should not have to have it in the public domain until the government chooses to declassify it."
When confronted Santhanam said, "We are not in business of selling peanuts or chocolates. This is a serious issue. In matters of national security, the government has the right to decide what will be classified. Every country that has gone nuclear has followed the same pattern. It takes some time before all the measurements can be digested, analyzed to project a picture."
It is very difficult for a scientist to reveal the nation's best kept secrets on camera. After a hour long press conference Santhanam rushed out to smoke, saying "I am in a tizzy. I don't know if I am going or coming."
India needs 2 more nuke tests, says Santhanam - Rediff.com India News

So if thermonuclear weapons are still need time to become more mature we always have nukes to burn the hell out of Pak or China....and do not tell us how your program started in 80's....we had conducted first again SUCCESSFUL nuclear test in 74 which made you prepare your mind to eat grass but to steal bomb tech and beg some from China....
 

farhan_9909

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farhan_9909

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I am not good at it.

but let me try

now let suppose both the country india and pakistan has 200 warheads(each atleast 50kt)

India as per wiki has 200 cities and pakistan 66.


though the 66 cities accounts for about just 42millions population
List of most populous cities in Pakistan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

on the other hand in india..i could not calculate the 200 cities population but just the top 10 cities accounts for 63millions


List of most populous cities in India - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



estimate the damage now.

it is true in nuclear war the damage india is to get will be atleast 10-15 times more in population means.considering just hitting the cities.you cant hit rural areas with nukes neither will pakistan hit rural areas of india

tonight i will post a full city by city damage if pak-india fire 100 nukes at each other
 

JBH22

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Pakistan has an undeniable Strategic advantage (refer to photo) over India and god willing his holiness is coming for the next Battle of Panipat to defeat Idol worshiping kaffirs Hindus.



On a more serious note isn't the interest in Israeli Iron dome the answer to Nasr
 

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