Chinese Regional Jets & Airliners

[SexyChineseLady]

Remember that Thomas Jefferson quotation & the lengthy explanation I had to provide you .

Yes, you are a Communist in these matters. And China's really not.

Seriously, why it is China that has Tesla factories and Airbus assembly lines while incubating the world's greatest set of EV companies outside Tesla and has the ARJ-21 and C919 while building A320s and A321neos at the same time?

And no one else in the Global South does?

You should ponder why that is so -- maybe is it because you people are a bunch of socialists and commies?

 

[Azaad]

Yes, you are a Communist in these matters. And China's really not.

Seriously, why it is China that has Tesla factories and Airbus assembly lines while incubating the world's greatest set of EV companies outside Tesla and has the ARJ-21 and C919 while building A320s and A321neos at the same time?

View attachment 208423

And no one else in the Global South does?

You should ponder why that is so -- maybe is it because you people are a bunch of socialists and commies?

I think you ought to post this on some weibo chat & see how long your views & you survive there .

Tesla has factories there coz China saw the potential in EVs a decade ago & moved to capture all positions in the end to end supply chain from mining to refining to R&D in battery chemistry to production of such battery packs on a massive scale to the various other components which go into an EV to recycling.


In addition to all this it offers a huge market. The rest of the world would offer ALL OF THIS & MORE by the end of the decade. By that time Tesla would be fighting for its survival in China . That's when you'd be conveniently posting on why should Tesla continue in China when it no longer makes any sense for it to be there as per the mandate from your handlers in the MSS.

As far as Airbus being in China goes , that was a pre condition that CCP imposed for the quantum of orders it released on Airbus prioritising it over Boeing setting one against the other to profit from the outcome apart from driving a wedge between EU & the US. Plus China gets hand on manufacturing experience on assembling a complex piece of engineering namely civilian aircrafts .

Indian civilian airliners have just concluded order running into billions of USD with both Boeing & Airbus. With the conclusion of negotiations on the initiative on Critical and Emerging Technologies (iCET) between the US & India you can expect something similar on the lines of Airbus & China between Boeing & India or perhaps later between Airbus & India as well .

https://www.forbesindia.com/article...ing-ready-to-change-air-india-forever/83179/1

It is already one of Airbus's largest customers and has so far ordered a total of 830 Airbus A320-family jets of which 488 are still to be delivered.

Exclusive: IndiGo pits Boeing against Airbus in record jet order talks

Indian budget carrier IndiGo is in talks with both Boeing and its current supplier Airbus to order more than 500 passenger jets, potentially smashing an industry record set by domestic rival Air India a few weeks ago, industry sources said.

www.reuters.com

US NSA Jake Sullivan welcomes Ajit Doval at White House to launch next milestone in US-India strategic partnership

Washington [US], February 1 (ANI): US National Security Advisor Jake Sullivan has welcomed his Indian counterpart Ajit Doval to the White House to “launch the next milestone” in the US-India strategic technology and defence partnership. “Honored to welcome Indian National Security Advisor Doval...

theprint.in

The problem with Chinese members in this & similar forums is either they've no appreciation of India's size or potential thinking they're talking about another Indonesia or Brazilian size economy here or worse they actually fear India's rise like the CCP & try their best to undermine or denigrate India & its achievements forgetting that India's anywhere between 5-15 yrs behind China in most if not all fields or perhaps because they know this to be a fact.

If you see the number of low blows emerging from the CCP regarding India , its democracy or economy or anything under the sun never once has the GoI ever retaliated for they know fear & lack of confidence masquerading as supreme confidence when they see it . All they do is grin in private.

 

[SexyChineseLady]

1) China is a big market because it accepts investment from everyone including its rivals, that won't change. Just follow what is happening in China this week with American CEOs while the US government is engaging in a trade and tech war with China. The global corporations do not want to leave China,

2) That big market will be getting bigger. 3% of $18/19T is a lot more than 10% of $3/4T. And no other major economy had EVER sustained 10% growth like China. Because of its unique position in East Asia, it is unlikely that any country outside it would ever replicate it. Vietnam is the closest but it does not have a Taiwan or Hong Kong plowing in skills and money that China had during its initial growth.

3) China itself is creating a huge number of exporting powers around the world to grow its parts and components trade -- Vietnam, Mexico, Hungary, Indonesia, Egypt, etc. So anyone who is outside is also competing with them too not just China. But Vietnam, Thailand, Hungary and Mexico will be far ahead with their battery factories from BYD, for example, when some other country begins this whole EV business with Tesla who in turn would need to source parts from China anyways

4) Countries are always banning apps, solar cells, etc. from China. China rarely retaliate against those nations' companies and just work around them. No apps? We'll just sell you celllphone parts and APIs and tunnel boring machines. So China is always growing its market share despite all the attacks.

So yes China's market is leverage but so is China's philosophy. Airbus has assembly plants in China, where are yours? Is it because you people have the mindsets of socialists and commies? Think about it

 

[SexyChineseLady]

The second production C919 B-001K is being readied for delivery from COMAC!

So beautiful that it brings me goosebumps!!!

 

[SexyChineseLady]

And they'll need more!

Tickets for C919 flights are sold out within seconds! This is such a huge cultural phenomenom in China right now!

I hope Indian friends get to experience this one day!

 

[Azaad]

1) China is a big market because it accepts investment from everyone including its rivals, that won't change. Just follow what is happening in China this week with American CEOs while the US government is engaging in a trade and tech war with China. The global corporations do not want to leave China,

China's doing itself favours by accepting investment from around the world. What makes you think it's obliging the world by accepting such investments. If China doesn't accept those investments some other country will .

As I wrote in response to a post by rockdog the other day , Chinese members here seem to be seeing this as a 100 meter sprint instead of the marathon it is . I'd believe all those visits were successful ones the day all those investments materialize. Global corporations especially western corporations will be forced by future events to make a choice with the Chinese foreclosing those options thru predatory economic practises. Then there's the Taiwan dilemma.

2) That big market will be getting bigger. 3% of $18/19T is a lot more than 10% of $3/4T. And no other major economy had EVER sustained 10% growth like China. Because of its unique position in East Asia, it is unlikely that any country outside it would ever replicate it. Vietnam is the closest but it does not have a Taiwan or Hong Kong plowing in skills and money that China had during its initial growth.

I've written before that even if China itself wanted to replicate it's success story between 1990-2020 today it wouldn't be able to do so . There were a unique set of circumstances which existed then which China capitalised on . Those circumstances don't exist today .

In fact those circumstances which favoured China has now turned against them. Vietnam Indonesia etc have their positive points but they're no where destined to be in the big league or even in the league of a RoK or Taiwan for they're too reliant on China being embedded within their supply chains to the extent that Vietnam will be used as a proxy for China just as other S E Asian nations & others across the globe. I've covered this issue earlier too & am now repeating it .

I mean it's one thing for China to Tom Tom Vietnamese achievements . It quite another for the world to accept it . As things stand Vietnam & all those nations dependent on China will be at the receiving end once the trade war commences in earnest before the actual war. I'm sorry but that's just the way it is.

3) China itself is creating a huge number of exporting powers around the world to grow its parts and components trade -- Vietnam, Mexico, Hungary, Indonesia, Egypt, etc. So anyone who is outside is also competing with them too not just China. But Vietnam, Thailand, Hungary and Mexico will be far ahead with their battery factories from BYD, for example, when some other country begins this whole EV business with Tesla who in turn would need to source parts from China anyways.

I think you answered your own query assuming it was a query to begin with.

China itself is creating a huge number of exporting powers around the world to grow its parts and components trade -- Vietnam, Mexico, Hungary, Indonesia, Egypt, etc.

When push comes to shove & these nations have to pick a side , guess whose side they'd choose .

4) Countries are always banning apps, solar cells, etc. from China. China rarely retaliate against those nations' companies and just work around them. No apps? We'll just sell you celllphone parts and APIs and tunnel boring machines. So China is always growing its market share despite all the attacks.

If you seriously don't expect any retaliation for actions on the border for 20 fatalities I'd have whatever it is you're smoking. "The state of our relationship will be determined by the state of our borders ." Dr S Jaishankar on the future of Indo Chinese relationship.

China can't retaliate coz China dominates the trade here & has more to lose . Why exactly didn't China retaliate when both the Trump & Biden administrations cut off China from the advanced nodes SMC market & associated advanced technologies ? You should have retaliated with sanctions across the board & cut down your exports if not outrightly stopped it . Why didn't you ?

Besides what do you think all those alternative supply chains being developed are all about ? The new mantra is no longer globalisation but localisation. Wake up & smell the coffee if you're still asleep when all those developments were taking place .

So yes China's market is leverage but so is China's philosophy. Airbus has assembly plants in China, where are yours? Is it because you people have the mindsets of socialists and commies? Think about it

What has a mentality of socialists & communists have to do with not having Airbus having assembly lines in India ? Didn't you check the orders for 80 billion USD to Boeing & Airbus an Indian airline company just placed ? That's merely the first installment . Another one of similar value would follow besides another airliner placing a similar order . Didn't you also go thru the article detailing the iCET recently negotiated between India & the US ?

Do you think only China's big enough to leverage its size to get deals beneficial to China ?The above listed developments are a pre cursor to ToT we're about to receive from GE for mfg TFs for our Fighter Aircrafts. What you spent a lifetime stealing & got half of , we're getting it all thru negotiations & thanks to your antagonistic relationship with the west. The assembly line will follow. Whether with Boeing or Airbus time will tell. Modi's visiting the US later this month & will be the chief guest for the Bastille day celebrations in France next month. Stay tuned for some big ticket news. Hope you don't have a nervous breakdown.

 

[Azaad]

And they'll need more!

Tickets for C919 flights are sold out within seconds! This is such a huge cultural phenomenom in China right now!

I hope Indian friends get to experience this one day!

We will but in an Indian developed civilian airliner not a Chinese one .

 

[SexyChineseLady]

We will but in an Indian developed civilian airliner not a Chinese one .

We don't expect you to buy a Chinese one but to develop one on your own

It would be a good thing for everyone except the duopoly. So I hope to see it!

 

[Azaad]

We don't expect you to

But it would be a good thing for everyone except the duopoly. So I hope to see it!

Your expectations are immaterial. We never cared much for Chinese opinion all thru 2 millenia & that's how things stand till date. You however look forward to our validation .


That's the way forward & that's how things will proceed.

 

[rockdog]

Sure. Post tweets from Twitter an SM banned in China. How many Chinese actually do have access to VPN & thus Twitter ?

weibo had such kind of forgein suppliers almost 10 yrs ago. i just picked in 2017

Baidu had a dedicated section of introduction on each key forgein suppliers.

Chinese researchers in investment bank created an index called "China big plane", involved those potential substitutions for forgein suppliers, and try to earn money, there is quite transparent paper they are trying to sell to private investors.
Now the paper is updated to v2.9

 

[MiG-29SMT]

Ur logic is funny, you raised the topic about price, i show you who had lower price. Then you said low price means discount and loss money.

If you already had conclusion, why u came to thread?

You simply do not understand, fuel efficiency is the main game in airliners, at this moment A-220 is the best aircraft around, Boeing did not get E-jets simply because they can not compete, A-220 is a very aerodynamic aircraft, A-321 has better range and more passengers, but you still do not make the math, you carry more people then you get lower prices for longer ranges.

E-195 for example has shorter range than A-220, A-220 has an structure that carries more fuel and aerodynamically is more efficient, airliners are buying A-220 in a relation 1/3, for each E-195 they buy 3 A-220.

Why?
First if the season is low they can use A-220 instead of A-321, so you do not fly with empty seats, second the aircraft flies longer ranges than E-195 so you get the seating of E-195 with the range of A-321.

C919 can not compete. nor E-195 or SSJ-100.


C919 is simply discounting price but as an aircraft sorry it is not as efficient as A-321 or A-220, Airbus is playing smart better aircraft will beat copies

 

[SexyChineseLady]

weibo had such kind of forgein suppliers almost 10 yrs ago. i just picked in 2017

View attachment 208470


Baidu had a dedicated section of introduction on each key forgein suppliers.

View attachment 208471


Chinese researchers in investment bank created an index called "China big plane", involved those potential substitutions for forgein suppliers, and try to earn money, there is quite transparent paper they are trying to sell to private investors.
Now the paper is updated to v2.9


View attachment 208472

Yes, Indians pretty much just make up stuff about China

 

[rockdog]

You simply do not understand, fuel efficiency is the main game in airliners, at this moment A-220 is the best aircraft around, Boeing did not get E-jets simply because they can not compete, A-220 is a very aerodynamic aircraft, A-321 has better range and more passengers, but you still do not make the math, you carry more people then you get lower prices for longer ranges.

E-195 for example has shorter range than A-220, A-220 has an structure that carries more fuel and aerodynamically is more efficient, airliners are buying A-220 in a relation 1/3, for each E-195 they buy 3 A-220.

Why?
First if the season is low they can use A-220 instead of A-321, so you do not fly with empty seats, second the aircraft flies longer ranges than E-195 so you get the seating of E-195 with the range of A-321.

C919 can not compete. nor E-195 or SSJ-100.


C919 is simply discounting price but as an aircraft sorry it is not as efficient as A-321 or A-220, Airbus is playing smart better aircraft will beat copies

Fuel efficiency is not isolated factor, you need to put into the specific system, like user case. For example, the Cessna 172 is more on fuel efficiency for carrying light but high value stuff to cross border between US and Mexico, than bigger plane.

If you have basic sense about economics, you should know the Price Tag is outcome of a total system. The system contains of production rate, labor cost, government subisidies, loan rate of bank, the desgin of route ... fuel efficiency is just one parameter of the whole system.

So your conclusion is very superficial only based on fuel efficiency, if so the world only needs one automobile company like Toyota before the EV era, and Toyota only needs to make one type called Camry.

This is the file from China Aviation Administration, it asked all the airports give the 1st priority on airport traffic control, landing priority, best route and height in the air ...

All these factors will make C919 profitble and if there are 2000 orders, there will be a million high payment jobs inside and outside of China, this is how Chinese EV industry got started it's the integrated advantage, you may never understand.

So we really don't care too much about fuel efficiency alone.

BTW, for E-195 or SSJ-100, E-195 is not the same class of C919, just like DJI is not the same class of E195; for SSJ100, i will ignore it before the supply chain resumes, just like we don't talk MRJ anymore.

 

[rockdog]

Forget talking the A220, I think China would buy some since C919 is still on slow production rate.

It's no sense to talk about fuel efficiency when it's called CS300.

Delta refuses to pay 300% tax on Bombardier planes

Delta refuses to pay 300% tax on Bombardier planes

This week, Delta Airlines Chief Executive Ed Bastian announced that the company's board is confident it will not have to pay a 300% tax on every CS100 aircraft it buys from Bombardier, despite constant efforts by the US Department of Commerce to enforce it. the tax from the beginning of 2018...

www.aeroflap.com.br

If you don't have big internal market, and politial indepenence, don't make big plane.

 

[SexyChineseLady]

Build the aircraft, operate it and productionize it.

Then indigenize the parts using that as an impetus to upgrade the aviation sector!

Over 1000 orders now and many more in the future of the C919 will provide massive revenue. China needs 8000 aircraft in the C919 class in the next decade!

Lubair, AVIC, Other Chinese Aviation Industry Players to Ride on Wings of C919’s Success

www.yicaiglobal.com

The C919’s long industrial chain will drive the technological upgrading and industrialization of China’s aviation sector, Great Wall Securities said. Already, the hinge arm castings, titanium alloy casings for engines and other accessories are all made locally.

In the future, the aircraft’s engines, avionics, electrical systems and other components will be developed locally, and the proportion of the C919’s domestic value will gradually increase.

 

[MiG-29SMT]

Fuel efficiency is not isolated factor, you need to put into the specific system, like user case. For example, the Cessna 172 is more on fuel efficiency for carrying light but high value stuff to cross border between US and Mexico, than bigger plane.

If you have basic sense about economics, you should know the Price Tag is outcome of a total system. The system contains of production rate, labor cost, government subisidies, loan rate of bank, the desgin of route ... fuel efficiency is just one parameter of the whole system.

So your conclusion is very superficial only based on fuel efficiency, if so the world only needs one automobile company like Toyota before the EV era, and Toyota only needs to make one type called Camry.

View attachment 208535

This is the file from China Aviation Administration, it asked all the airports give the 1st priority on airport traffic control, landing priority, best route and height in the air ...

All these factors will make C919 profitble and if there are 2000 orders, there will be a million high payment jobs inside and outside of China, this is how Chinese EV industry got started it's the integrated advantage, you may never understand.

So we really don't care too much about fuel efficiency alone.

BTW, for E-195 or SSJ-100, E-195 is not the same class of C919, just like DJI is not the same class of E195; for SSJ100, i will ignore it before the supply chain resumes, just like we don't talk MRJ anymore.

C919 is not profitable regardless you want to convince your self it is better than A-220 or A-321NEO

Comac will try what the soviets did, build their own aircraft and force their airlines to buy, and use the typical chinese practice of dumping prices.

This is just to try to save the C919 from competition and if they are lucky perhaps later design a new aircraft that can compete.

But as 2023, the reality is it has less range and less passengers than A-321, and is less efficient than A-220.

ARJ-21 for example is so obsolete that no one will buy it.

I will put you simple, E-195 is now obsolete, E-175 has not sold even a new E-jet, this could change if the american market opens to the new heavier model, but reality wise Embraer is in trouble, but Brazil has private jets to sell so the company is not losing as much for that reason they wanted to sell E-jets to Boeing.

A-220 can fly longer than C919 and has longer range.

 

[rockdog]

C919 is not profitable regardless you want to convince your self it is better than A-220 or A-321NEO

Comac will try what the soviets did, build their own aircraft and force their airlines to buy, and use the typical chinese practice of dumping prices.

This is just to try to save the C919 from competition and if they are lucky perhaps later design a new aircraft that can compete.

But as 2023, the reality is it has less range and less passengers than A-321, and is less efficient than A-220.

ARJ-21 for example is so obsolete that no one will buy it.

I will put you simple, E-195 is now obsolete, E-175 has not sold even a new E-jet, this could change if the american market opens to the new heavier model, but reality wise Embraer is in trouble, but Brazil has private jets to sell so the company is not losing as much for that reason they wanted to sell E-jets to Boeing.
View attachment 208595


A-220 can fly longer than C919 and has longer range.

Like ur predictions on J20?

 

[ym888]

Like ur predictions on J20?

J20 is not profitable regardless you want to convince your self it is better than F22or F35

CAIG will try what the soviets did, build their own aircraft and force their PLAF to buy, and use the typical chinese practice of dumping prices.

This is just to try to save the J20 from competition and if they are lucky perhaps later design a new aircraft that can compete. But as 2023, the reality is it has less range and less passengers than F22, and is less efficient than F35.

J10 for example is so obsolete that no one will buy it.

 

[MiG-29SMT]

Like ur predictions on J20?

your typical fantasy trying to invent things, you will not understand this, but cost per passenger of fuel is the basic parameter, A-220 and A-321 are much more efficient in fact the crap of ARJ-21 because it is crap short range nobody buys it because without Chinese government purchases nobody will buy, crap and obsolete aircraft and C-919 is several years if not decades behind A-321, remember China assembles A-321s China does not build them and the Chinese C919 onnly competes thanks to western technology

 

[MiG-29SMT]

J20 is not profitable regardless you want to convince your self it is better than F22or F35

CAIG will try what the soviets did, build their own aircraft and force their PLAF to buy, and use the typical chinese practice of dumping prices.

This is just to try to save the J20 from competition and if they are lucky perhaps later design a new aircraft that can compete. But as 2023, the reality is it has less range and less passengers than F22, and is less efficient than F35.

J10 for example is so obsolete that no one will buy it.

high by pass ratio engines are more efficient than low bypass, yes China still is not making engines with the capabilities of Rols Royce or GE engines