Chinese Navy Destroyers

[Tactical Doge]

I don’t know how Indians use mobile phones. Good quality mobile phones have become cheap garbage.

By your standards you mean

 

[johnq]

All technology in Chinese phones is a result of straight up intellectual property theft, with zero original ideas.
This also applies to all Chinese weapons.

 

[Tactical Doge]

All technology in Chinese phones is a result of straight up intellectual property theft, with zero original ideas.

All that theft and still piss poor quality phones

 

[BON PLAN]

AND....
WHAT ABOUT CHINESE NAVY ???

 

[Alien_cat26]

Everyone, I don't think this is the mobile phone market.

 

[iantsai]

Are Chinese destroyers just like their smartphones with built in obsolescence?

Arjuna MBT was developed from 1972 to 2011, overweight, overprice and out-of-time, refused by the idian army, finally only 125 were built and 75% were grounded after a few years of operations.

Tejas fighter was developed from 1987 to 2015, rejected by the indian air force, only 20 were built after six years.

INS Vikrant was designed from 1999, when china had not yet purchased the hull of Varyag. Then china refitted and enhanced and ommissioned CV-16 Liaoning, designed and built and commissioned CV-17 Shandong, designed and built and launched three 40,000 tons LHD, designed and built CV-18,which will be launched by 2022.

How is INS Vikrant now? 22 years after the project started, 12 years after its keel laid, 8 years after its very first launching,ins vikrant is still 'under construction', or 'fitting out'. Is it full of 'built in out-of-age wreckage' ?

 

[Bhurki]

Compare what the Zumwalt Class brings to the table in comparison to what the PLAN have.

Actually, Zumwalt doesn't bring anything to the table.

Its guns are being ripped out.

Its S band radar SPY4 doesnt exist, while the X band radar SPY3 is being replaced with EASR ( a cheaper version of SPY6 found on AB3 class).
The very reason it was shaped the way it was doesn't exist anymore (coastal fire support).
The enlarged MK57 cells have nothing exclusive to carry.

It is an utter failure. It is an experiment that ended up costing $25 billion, and now they are trying to find ways to justify it by sticking hypersonics to it, which don't even require any of the characteristics the ship provides.

PLAN, quite frankly, neither has the time, nor the money, to follow such endeavours.
Their approach seems a lot more practical, while not letting go of essentials.

Look at the design maturity cycle.
From 054a that copies Fremm to a more independent 052D and then to 055.

In all of these, managed risks were attempted but all are filled up to brim with armament.

 

[vampyrbladez]

Actually, Zumwalt doesn't bring anything to the table.

Its guns are being ripped out.

Its S band radar SPY4 doesnt exist, while the X band radar SPY3 is being replaced with EASR ( a cheaper version of SPY6 found on AB3 class).
The very reason it was shaped the way it was doesn't exist anymore (coastal fire support).
The enlarged MK57 cells have nothing exclusive to carry.

It is an utter failure. It is an experiment that ended up costing $25 billion, and now they are trying to find ways to justify it by sticking hypersonics to it, which don't even require any of the characteristics the ship provides.

PLAN, quite frankly, neither has the time, nor the money, to follow such endeavours.
Their approach seems a lot more practical, while not letting go of essentials.

Look at the design maturity cycle.
From 054a that copies Fremm to a more independent 052D and then to 055.

In all of these, managed risks were attempted but all are filled up to brim with armament.

PLAN is using an older design by their own Admiral's admission.

Other Chinese sources are a bit more guarded on this point. At the time of the first launch, one Chinese appraisal said “the new destroyer still possibly uses traditional means of propulsion.”30 Likewise, another evaluation also contends that an “upgraded version 055” (改进型 055) will feature all-electric drive.

https://digital-commons.usnwc.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1004&context=cmsi-maritime-reports

The Zumwalt has an electric drive which will allow for lasers, more powerful radars and performance.

https://www.ge.com/news/press-relea...s-1st-full-electric-power-and-propulsion-ship

The DDG(X) will be a smaller Zumwalt with AN-SPY-6 Radars and 120+ VLS and a similar electric drive.

That’s pushing the Navy toward an integrated power system, says Rear Adm. Paul Schlise.
“We’re going to incorporate an Integrated Power System that has the ability to power up the weapons and sensors of the future,” Schlise said during the Surface Navy Association’s virtual annual symposium. “[That’s] the key to the realm here. It’s DDG-1000-like, in some respects in that it’ll have that integrated power system, but the most important thing is including the space, weight, power and cooling — reestablishing those margins to incorporate future systems that are not yet mature.

https://www.defensenews.com/digital...ipbuilding-and-warfare-is-in-the-power-plant/

DDG(X) will likely start with the SPY-6 AMDR and the Aegis Baseline 10 combat system, with room to grow as more powerful radars are developed down the line. DDG(X) will also likely be asked to carry hypersonic missiles or other long-range weapons that are too large to fit in today’s Mk 41 vertical launching system tubes. And it will be asked to host directed energy weapons, electromagnetic warfare tools and more that consume a large amount of power.

https://www.defensenews.com/naval/2...rs-of-delays-for-large-combatant-replacement/

 

[johnq]

Arjuna MBT was developed from 1972 to 2011, overweight, overprice and out-of-time, refused by the idian army, finally only 125 were built and 75% were grounded after a few years of operations.

Tejas fighter was developed from 1987 to 2015, rejected by the indian air force, only 20 were built after six years.

INS Vikrant was designed from 1999, when china had not yet purchased the hull of Varyag. Then china refitted and enhanced and ommissioned CV-16 Liaoning, designed and built and commissioned CV-17 Shandong, designed and built and launched three 40,000 tons LHD, designed and built CV-18,which will be launched by 2022.

How is INS Vikrant now? 22 years after the project started, 12 years after its keel laid, 8 years after its very first launching,ins vikrant is still 'under construction', or 'fitting out'. Is it full of 'built in out-of-age wreckage' ?

All of the Indian projects listed above are indigenous successes because the tech developed through them was transferred across the entire Indian armed forces, as well as their follow up iterations being successful. As for the delays, that happens whenever you actually develop your own products instead of just stealing it from other countries like the Chinese Communist Party's massive intellectual property theft program has done.
All of the Chinese projects mentioned are based on stolen technologies from Russia and the west, as well as using outdated technologies. So while China may have the quantity, it severely lags in quality of electronics (hardware and software), sensors and weapons, and will get its ass kicked in any actual battle with any modern military like the US.
I still stand by my original statement: All of China's current weapons are based on technologies stolen from Russia and the west, and China severely lags behind the west in defence technologies due to gaps in their knowledge. But that gap is to be expected when you just steal stuff and try to make it work instead of developing it yourself from scratch like the west and Russia have done, and India has started to do.

 

[J20!]

All of the Indian projects listed above are indigenous successes because the tech developed through them was transferred across the entire Indian armed forces, as well as their follow up iterations being successful. As for the delays, that happens whenever you actually develop your own products instead of just stealing it from other countries like the Chinese Communist Party's massive intellectual property theft program has done.
All of the Chinese projects mentioned are based on stolen technologies from Russia and the west, as well as using outdated technologies. So while China may have the quantity, it severely lags in quality of electronics (hardware and software), sensors and weapons, and will get its ass kicked in any actual battle with any modern military like the US.
I still stand by my original statement: All of China's current weapons are based on technologies stolen from Russia and the west, and China severely lags behind the west in defence technologies due to gaps in their knowledge. But that gap is to be expected when you just steal stuff and try to make it work instead of developing it yourself from scratch like the west and Russia have done, and India has started to do.

Lots of assumptions and conjecture here.

Since this is the destroyer thread I'll ask:

The IN has access to the Wests export level tech. in which aspect does the Chinese Navy "severely lag in quality of electronics (hardware and software), sensors and weapons," vis-a-vis Indian Navy destroyers?

Radar? No
Data links? No
Missile capabilities? No
CIWS? No
Amphibious capability? HELL NO

I'd argue the Chinese Navy is leaps and bounds ahead of the IN on all the above, especially in terms of indegenous hardware n software developments.

but yeah, please make your detailed argument...

 

[johnq]

Lots of assumptions and conjecture here.

Since this is the destroyer thread I'll ask:

The IN has access to the Wests export level tech. in which aspect does the Chinese Navy "severely lag in quality of electronics (hardware and software), sensors and weapons," vis-a-vis Indian Navy destroyers?

Radar? No
Data links? No
Missile capabilities? No
CIWS? No
Amphibious capability? HELL NO

I'd argue the Chinese Navy is leaps and bounds ahead of the IN on all the above, especially in terms of indegenous hardware n software developments.

but yeah, please make your detailed argument...

You are the one making assumptions. Nobody exports the details of how their sensors are made.
Secondly, you have absolutely zero data about how effective CCP military sensors on ships are, yet fanboys like you brainwashed by Chinese Communist party (CCP) propaganda automatically assume that the CCP military sensors are the best.
My sources are ex-Indian military people who have had access to intelligence, as well as some others including Chinese and Taiwanese sources. What I have gleaned from them is that CCP military AESA technology may look like AESA on the outside, but what it can do (i.e the software) is still largely downgraded PESA technology stolen from Russia. This is largely due to restrictions placed on China by both Russia and the west. Yet CCP fanboys automatically assume that CCP military radar technology is the best, because they have been brainwashed by CCP propaganda all their lives. A decade ago there was so much CCP propaganda about the J-20's WS-10 engines being superior in thrust and reliability to Russian engines that they were already going to replace the Russian engines a decade ago. If you cannot remember, look it up. At that point in time, CCP propaganda bots were going on and on about it. And what happened? Only now, a decade later, are Russian WS-10 engines being tested for replacing the Russian engines on some J-20 prototypes. And even these engines have lower thrust than what is required and lower reliability than the planned WS-15 engines, which exploded during testing, and so are a failure. So please, do go ahead and blindly believe CCP propaganda without thinking for yourself, as most CCP propaganda bots do. I know better because I have learned things from multiple outside sources.
The radars and electronics on Indian destroyers are actual Israeli AESA radars with upgraded functionality. The weapons on Indian destroyers have proven functionality: Indian, Russian and Israeli. None of the CCP military electronics and weapons are even close in terms of back end technology, and last I checked, their cruise missiles failed during tests. According to people who have had access to both Indian and outside intelligence, CCP military sensors, datalinks, and weapons are based on technologies which are at least 2 decades old. CCP military equipment is there to look fancy for propaganda purposes to brainwash naive CCP fanboys with CCP propaganda. But in terms of the technology within, the CCP military is at least 2 decades behind the west. So yes, including all the equipment on Indian destroyers, both indigenous and imported, CCP navy destroyers suck in comparison in terms of war-fighting functionality as well as reliability when compared to modern western systems. Only naive, brainwashed CCP bots take CCP propaganda at face value. And most of the stuff on wikipedia is also monitored and changed by CCP 50 cent army to make things look more favorable for CCP weaponry.

So I'd argue the Indian Navy is leaps and bounds ahead of the CCP Navy on all the above.

Radar? Yes
Data links? Yes
Missile capabilities? Yes
CIWS? Yes
Amphibious capability? HELL Yes

As far as indigenous capability is concerned, while the CCP may have stolen/copied Russian sam systems and weapons sensors, everything that they copied was heavily downgraded in terms of back end technology. And CCP equipment is also highly unreliable and breaks down often, as evidenced by several reports about exported CCP military equipment that have appeared earlier in the press.

If the CCP air force truly had decent AESA radars or other sensors, why did Pakistan choose European mechanically scanning radars and European avionics on their JF-17s? And why do over half of JF-17s suffer from cracked canopies as well as cracks in their airframes? And why do JF-17s still fly with Russian engines, even the newly ordered ones?

The sad truth is that brainwashed CCP bots will always blindly worship CCP military equipment and have dreams about it, but any modernized military will simply cut through the CCP military. Period.

But please do go ahead in dreaming on and drinking your own CCP propaganda koolaid. It's what brainwashed CCP propaganda bots do, even after the CCP kills and eats common Chinese people like they did in the cultural revolution during the Guangxi massacre. And these same killers and cannibals got away with murder and cannibalism in their youth due to their political connections, their crimes were covered up, and now form much of the leadership of the CCP. They may be killers and cannibals, but sure, they would never lie in their propaganda brochures in order to keep brainwashed CCP bots under control, right?

Chinese Culture and Society Megathread

There are cases where Chinese companies had patented the exact software they stole from Canadian company and they even did not change the company name in the code in form of logs. Like while coding, developers add various variable names based on their own name or company name many times and...

defenceforumindia.com

As far as indigenous development is concerned, the entire world knows that the CCP are intellectual property thieves who have stolen whatever technology they have and not developed anything on their own.
Even CCP's bioweapon Wuhan virus was developed through the assistance from American scientists. We can thank America's dumbass open door policy to Chinese biology scientists and students for that, who are mostly CCP agents working for the CCP military.

 

[iantsai]

All of the Indian projects listed above are indigenous successes because the tech developed through them was transferred across the entire Indian armed forces, as well as their follow up iterations being successful. As for the delays, that happens whenever you actually develop your own products instead of just stealing it from other countries like the Chinese Communist Party's massive intellectual property theft program has done.
All of the Chinese projects mentioned are based on stolen technologies from Russia and the west, as well as using outdated technologies. So while China may have the quantity, it severely lags in quality of electronics (hardware and software), sensors and weapons, and will get its ass kicked in any actual battle with any modern military like the US.
I still stand by my original statement: All of China's current weapons are based on technologies stolen from Russia and the west, and China severely lags behind the west in defence technologies due to gaps in their knowledge. But that gap is to be expected when you just steal stuff and try to make it work instead of developing it yourself from scratch like the west and Russia have done, and India has started to do.

don't talk to me, Mr. Parrot!

 

[johnq]

don't talk to me, Mr. Parrot!

Anytime a Chinese Communist Party (CCP) bot posts fake propaganda, I will respond. This is an Indian defence forum, and the era of tolerating brainwashed CCP bots posting fake propaganda and getting away with it is coming to an end. CCP bots are a bunch of liars posting in support of a regime that has killed and eaten (see cannibalism in Guangxi massacre) Chinese people during the cultural revolution which was happening into the 1970s. I am sure CCP bots are proud of parroting the propaganda of such a regime:

Cultural Revolution - Wikipedia

The Cultural Revolution damaged China's economy and traditional culture, with an estimated death toll ranging from hundreds of thousands to 20 million.[1][2][3][4][5][6] Beginning with the Red August of Beijing, massacres took place across mainland China, including the Guangxi Massacre, in which massive cannibalism also occurred;[7][8] the Inner Mongolia incident; the Guangdong Massacre; the Yunnan Massacres; and the Hunan Massacres. Red Guards destroyed historical relics and artifacts, as well as ransacking cultural and religious sites. The 1975 Banqiao Dam failure, one of the world's greatest technological catastrophes, also occurred during the Cultural Revolution. Meanwhile, tens of millions of people were persecuted: senior officials, most notably Chinese president Liu Shaoqi, along with Deng Xiaoping, Peng Dehuai, and He Long, were purged or exiled; millions were accused of being members of the Five Black Categories, suffering public humiliation, imprisonment, torture, hard labor, seizure of property, and sometimes execution or harassment into suicide; intellectuals were considered the "Stinking Old Ninth" and were widely persecuted—notable scholars and scientists such as Lao She, Fu Lei, Yao Tongbin, and Zhao Jiuzhang were killed or committed suicide. Schools and universities were closed with the college entrance exams cancelled. Over 10 million urban intellectual youths were sent to the countryside in the Down to the Countryside Movement.

Guangxi Massacre - Wikipedia

The Guangxi Massacre (simplified Chinese: 广西大屠杀; traditional Chinese: 廣西大屠殺; pinyin: Guǎngxī Dàtúshā), or Guangxi Cultural Revolution Massacre (广西文革大屠杀; 廣西文革大屠殺; Guǎngxī Wéngé Dàtúshā), was a series of events involving lynching and direct massacre in Guangxi during the Cultural Revolution (1966–1976).[1][2][3][4][5] The official record shows an estimated death toll from 100,000 to 150,000.[1][4] Methods of slaughter included beheading, beating, live burial, stoning, drowning, boiling and disemboweling.[1][6] In certain areas including Wuxuan County and Wuming District, massive human cannibalism occurred even though no famine existed; according to public records available, at least 137 people—perhaps hundreds more—were eaten by others and at least thousands of people participated in the cannibalism.[1][2][3][4][5][7][8] Other researchers have pointed out that 421 victims who could be identified by names were eaten, and there were reports of cannibalism across dozens of counties in Guangxi.[4][7][9]

After the Cultural Revolution, people who were involved in the massacre or cannibalism received minor punishments during the "Boluan Fanzheng" period; in Wuxuan County where at least 38 people were eaten, fifteen participants were prosecuted, receiving up to 14 years in prison, while ninety-one members of the Chinese Communist Party (CCP) were expelled from the party and thirty-nine non-party officials were either demoted or had a salary cut.[1][3][5][6][10] Although the cannibalism was sponsored by local offices of the Communist Party and militia, no direct evidence suggests that anyone in the national Communist Party leadership including Mao Zedong endorsed the cannibalism or even knew of it.[5][7][10] However, some scholar has pointed out that Wuxuan County, through internal channel, had notified the central leadership about the cannibalism in 1968.[9]

Methods of killing
In the massacre, methods of slaughter included "beheading, beating, live burial, stoning, drowning, boiling, group slaughters, disemboweling, digging out hearts, livers, genitals, slicing off flesh, blowing up with dynamite, and more".[1][6]

• In one case, according to official records, a person was bound to dynamites on the back and was blown up into pieces by other people—just for fun.[1]
• In another case of 1968, "a geography instructor named Wu Shufang (吴树芳) was beaten to death by students at Wuxuan Middle School. Her body was carried to the flat stones of the Qian River where another teacher was forced at gunpoint to rip out the heart and liver. Back at the school the pupils barbecued and consumed the organs."[6][9]

Human cannibalism occurred in Guangxi during the Cultural Revolution. According to Zheng Yi (郑义), a scholar who conducted detailed research on the topic in the late 1980s and later smuggled some copies of official documents to the United States, at least 137 people—perhaps hundreds more—were eaten by others and thousands of people participated in the cannibalism.[1][2][3][4][5][7] Documents also record a variety of forms of cannibalism, including eating people as an after-dinner snack, slicing off the meat in big parties, dividing up the flesh so each person could take a large chunk home, barbecuing or roasting the liver, and so on.[5][9][10]

According to Yan Lebin (晏乐斌), a member of the Ministry of Public Security who joined both of the investigation groups:[1]

In 1968, 38 people in Wuxuan County were eaten, and 113 officials of the county participated in eating human flesh, hearts and livers. Chen Guorong (陈国荣), a peasant from Guigang County who happened to pass by Wuxuan, was caught and killed by local militia because he was fat; his heart and liver were taken out while his flesh was distributed to 20 people. A female militia leader ate 6 human livers in total, and cut the genitals of 5 men and soaked them in alcohol which she would drink later, claiming that these organs were beneficial to her health. The behavior of eating human flesh, hearts and livers occurred in many counties of Guangxi including Wuxuan, Wuming, Shangsi, Guigang, Qinzhou, Guiping, and Lingyun ... After the revolutionary committee was established in Shangsi County, a "killing conference" was held at Pingshan Square (平山广场) on September 1, 1968, during which more than 10 officials and civilians were beaten to death. After the conference, a committee member, Li Hao (黎郝), removed the hearts and livers from the corpses, sauteing them and preparing them as dishes for other representatives who attended the conference.

According to Song Yongyi, a Chinese historian who works at the California State University, Los Angeles:[2][4][7][12]

Massive cannibalism

Independent researchers in Guangxi counted a total of 421 people who were eaten. There were reports of cannibalism across 27 counties in Guangxi; that's two-thirds of all the counties in Guangxi. There was one man who was said to be in the so-called fifth category, who was beaten to death where he stood. He had two kids, one of 11 and one of 14. The local officials and armed militia said that it was important to eradicate such people, and so they not only killed those two children: they ate them too. This took place in Pubei county, Guangxi, where 35 people were killed and eaten in total. Most of them were rich landowners and their families. There was one landowner called Liu Zhengjian whose entire family was wiped out. He had a 17-year-old daughter, Liu Xiulan, who was gang-raped by nine people [for 19 times] who then ripped open her belly, and ate her liver and breasts. There were so many incidents like this.

According to Frank Dikötter, Chair Professor of Humanities at the University of Hong Kong, Senior Fellow at Hoover Institution of Stanford, and winner of the 2011 Samuel Johnson Prize:[13]

Throughout 1967 but also '68, there are factions in the countryside that start not just eliminating each other physically, but literally in a couple of small towns they start ritualistically eating each other. In other words, it is not enough to eliminate your class enemy. You have to eat his heart, so there are very well-documented cases of ritual cannibalism.[14]
There was a hierarchy in the consumption of class enemies. Leaders feasted on the heart and liver, mixed with pork, while ordinary villagers were allowed only to peck at the victims’ arms and thighs.[15]

These same killers and cannibals who killed and ate Chinese people when they were younger had their crimes covered up due to their political connections, and are now part of the leadership of the Chinese Communist Party. People who do such things are fully capable of lying to the Chinese people through propaganda in order to keep them under control. Which is why all information coming out of Chinese Communist Party media is unreliable lies and propaganda.

 

[Kumata]

don't talk to me, Mr. Parrot!

Dude,

you better be a donkey and stop repeating yourself with your propaganda. I know Chinese Bat Munchers do not know what the meaning of "respect" is .. but still!!!!!!!!!!!!

Learn to behave else we had many with broken neck hanging from their torso running to the mothers to take care of their neck!!!!!!!!!

 

[iantsai]

Dude,

you better be a donkey and stop repeating yourself with your propaganda. I know Chinese Bat Munchers do not know what the meaning of "respect" is .. but still!!!!!!!!!!!!

Learn to behave else we had many with broken neck hanging from their torso running to the mothers to take care of their neck!!!!!!!!!

Your mentioned "respect" in your offensive reply, what a joke. Do you show your respect to your father or friends with the word "donkey"? If so, what a funny custom？

If you checked all the replies of this mr. johnq, you'll find EVERY post he wrote is political nonsence of "China steal bla bla bla..." and nothing about china destroyers or china navy or indian destroyers or anything related.

It's a shame that moderators of defenceforumindia.com allowed this type of trolling account existing for so long time. Do you keep these threads just for your own self-entertainment? I doubt.

If you Indians really care about the power growth of China Navy and want to have a forum to discuss, you'd better ban this trolling account and let all the topic back to what this thread is for.

 

[Kumata]

Your mentioned "respect" in your offensive reply, what a joke. Do you show your respect to your father or friends with the word "donkey"? If so, what a funny custom？

we call it as Pay back.. U started with parrot and i ended with donkey . U seee the feeling is always mutual.


and to put in straight... I can trust a North korean or a Porki once but i would never trust a chinese bat muncher. So "friends" is not even in picture till i can see. my hate for anything in CCP China is permanent.

As for calling out father et all goes, Pls refrain yourself , else we have a very famous bollywood movie dialogue " will drill so many holes in your body, that you will forget where to breath and where to Fart"

If you checked all the replies of this mr. johnq, you'll find EVERY post he wrote is political nonsence of "China steal bla bla bla..." and nothing about china destroyers or china navy or indian destroyers or anything related.

Is not that a fact that china is known to steal IPR and technologies from various western & russian countries??? He is putting in facts only. Many US presidents have called that out and is the reason chinese companies are getting banned everywhere... Huawei ...we ourselves banned tiktok and assorted list ....

Do a simple google and you will amazed what CCP hides from you and what is known across the world!!!

The Department of Justice’s National Security Division Chief Addresses China’s Campaign to Steal U.S. Intellectual Property

On August 12, 2020, John Demers, the head of the National Security Division (NSD) at the Department of Justice (DOJ), spoke publicly about national security threats from China at an event sponsored by the Center for Strategic and International Studies in Washington, DC. In more candid remarks...

www.natlawreview.com

How To Stop China From Stealing Your Intellectual Property

If China really is hard at work ripping Americans off by stealing their intellectual property, then there's an opportunity there to protect it.

www.forbes.com

How China’s Legal System Enables Intellectual Property Theft

China’s recent improvements in IP protection can’t overcome the fact that its legal system will never offer a level playing field.

thediplomat.com

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/feb/06/china-technology-theft-fbi-biggest-threat

On this forum itself, search a bit and you will find chinese copy cat pis posted everywhere ....

So next time, do some research before talking of IPR

It's a shame that moderators of defenceforumindia.com allowed this type of trolling account existing for so long time. Do you keep these threads just for your own self-entertainment? I doubt.

If you Indians really care about the power growth of China Navy and want to have a forum to discuss, you'd better ban this trolling account and let all the topic back to what this thread is for.

Perhaps CCP did not taught you meaning of trolling correctly. He is always countering you with facts, it's CCP bots like you which are trolling with your sanya hotel videos and beaches.....

and Mods on DFI are pretty lenient and promote exchange of fact based views not CCP garbage...

 

[ladder]

@iantsai welcome back..... ( in another form)

 

[Kumata]

@iantsai welcome back..... ( in another form)

Kaun hai yeh Ladder sir.. at times, i feel that one id is making a post and other id is replying to that in favor...

 

[ladder]

Kaun hai yeh Ladder sir.. at times, i feel that one id is making a post and other id is replying to that in favor...

No 'Sir' please. If an old, very dormant account has been reactivated/reinvigorated; It is sure to be 'delta' variant of any other poster.
@mods will carry out a genome sequencing. But till then enjoy his/ her shit show.

 

[Kumata]

No 'Sir' please. If an old, very dormant account has been reactivated/reinvigorated; It is sure to be 'delta' variant of any other poster.
@mods will carry out a genome sequencing. But till then enjoy his/ her shit show.

you sure got a hawk eye... He registered in Dec 2010 on Christmas and suddenly got activated