China stays firm, but other countries may back India’s NSG bid

Trinetra

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 30, 2017
Messages
260
Likes
552
Country flag
NEW DELHI: Some countries who had been opposed to India's membership bid to the Nuclear Suppliers Group (NSG) may be coming around to being more accepting of India's candidature. "There is a greater buy-in from these countries", said senior German diplomatic sources. A consultative group meeting of the NSGis currently on, where India's membership is being discussed.

Needless to add, China is not among these countries. The evolution in positions has been a result of continued backroom diplomacy said sources familiar with developments. The US, last week, reiterated its support for India's membership, but with China remaining the most powerful outlier+ , India's chances are no brighter today than earlier.

Markus Ederer, Germany's foreign secretary, met his counterpart S Jaishankar to take forward the key elements of the relationship as both countries prepare for a key inter-governmental commission meeting in Berlin in May. PM Narendra Modi will be traveling to Germany twice this year - once in May and then again for the G-20 summit in Hamburg in July.

Interestingly, Germany is, for the first time, directing significant foreign policy interest in the Indian Ocean, working with India on it.

Jaishankar will address top German diplomats at their internal meeting in Sri Lanka this week. While Germany does not have much of territorial interest, they are coming round to the conclusion that the Indian Ocean needs greater attention in geo-political and geo-economic terms.

They believe a global competition is shaping up over the Indian Ocean, and as a major trading power, Germany has an interest in ensuring the Indian Ocean remains a rules-based and stable area. Just as India is working on its own plans for the littoral states, Germany too is developing a "maritime agenda" for the rim states, German sources said.
India and Germany are focusing on sectors that are closely aligned with the Modi government's priorities - renewable energy, smart cities+ , connectivity, clean Ganga, dual education, railways etc. "India is one of our most important strategic partners globally", said German diplomats.
But as China and the US+ veer towards very different directions, Berlin and New Delhi are coming to the conclusion that closer cooperation might be more necessary than ever.
Both countries have their own spheres of influence and "at a time when the global free trade system is under pressure and the US is retrenching, we both feel we have to take greater responsibility for our regions."
 

Tshering22

Sikkimese Saber
Senior Member
Joined
Aug 20, 2010
Messages
4,948
Likes
4,866
Country flag
Some countries who had been opposed to India's membership bid to the Nuclear Suppliers Group (NSG) may be coming around to being more accepting of India's candidature. "There is a greater buy-in from these countries", said senior German diplomatic sources. A consultative group meeting of the NSGis currently on, where India's membership is being discussed.
Erdogan seems a ripe candidate to be asked for political support. I see his upcoming visit to India as an opportunity to press him for support and at least a neutrality in the stance of J&K in the UN, which Turks already support Pakistanis on.

Either that, or we can forget cooperating on Gulenist issues and other geopolitical concerns.

We need to put down hard facts.

Needless to add, China is not among these countries. The evolution in positions has been a result of continued backroom diplomacy said sources familiar with developments. The US, last week, reiterated its support for India's membership, but with China remaining the most powerful outlier+ , India's chances are no brighter today than earlier.
China will continue to play spoilsport because they feel they can.

Due to our weak manufacturing, corrupt bureaucracy and useless government bodies in the past, China has successfully delineated its commercial interests in India, from its geopolitical interests in the region. With over 45 billion worth of trade deficit and a miserable manufacturing ecosystem in India since 1990s, we have had to pay catch up until now. Even now the opposition doesn't let reforms come through so that we can take the Chinese manufacturing war machine by the horn.

India has never truly had a deep thinking, strategic-oriented government in its history, barring the brief time with IG when she would rattle up everyone from Washington to Beijing.

This lack of strategic culture in India's political-military doctrine makes us a weak international player, resulting in very few countries choosing to openly align with us. China's strength is its ability to win trade wars with ease and ensure that their logistics remains uncompromised in case of a conflict. That's why they win.

PM Modi has tried hard moves in the recent years, but they are not hard enough as we are too keen on getting Chinese investments into the country and are unable to de-link the commercial and political interests. It would make far more sense for us to re-consider our over-reliance on Chinese for everything and look at establishing and consolidating the manufacturing ecosystem at least to the extent that it can satisfy our own demands.

What we need is a leverage and that leverage can only be created through self-development. China will continue to play this game of "let Pakistan come" because we don't have a strong political stand within the country.

To do that, we need to bring in aggressive reforms which checks dubious fifth column entities within India which subvert Indian interests through softer modes, at the same time take the hard stance on development policies, even if they are labelled almost authoritarian.

Unless we take the battle out to the international stage, this will keep happening and China will keep egging us on with Pakistan.

Open up about their disputes if they don't care about ours and make sure it irks them enough to keep them rattled, while strengthening the military might within. We are weak in assembling and manufacturing weapons, we are slow in indigenous design and innovation and for that, we are suffering political mess in the international arena.
 

Tshering22

Sikkimese Saber
Senior Member
Joined
Aug 20, 2010
Messages
4,948
Likes
4,866
Country flag
They believe a global competition is shaping up over the Indian Ocean, and as a major trading power, Germany has an interest in ensuring the Indian Ocean remains a rules-based and stable area. Just as India is working on its own plans for the littoral states, Germany too is developing a "maritime agenda" for the rim states, German sources said.
India and Germany are focusing on sectors that are closely aligned with the Modi government's priorities - renewable energy, smart cities+ , connectivity, clean Ganga, dual education, railways etc. "India is one of our most important strategic partners globally", said German diplomats.
But as China and the US+ veer towards very different directions, Berlin and New Delhi are coming to the conclusion that closer cooperation might be more necessary than ever.
Both countries have their own spheres of influence and "at a time when the global free trade system is under pressure and the US is retrenching, we both feel we have to take greater responsibility for our regions."
So this means Germans would like to form a a strategic military thought process which is independent of Washington.

Germany and Japan need to get rid of their WW2 yokes and brace up to really make sense out of the G-4 meetings we hold: India, Germany, Japan and Brazil.
 

Srinivas_K

Senior Member
Joined
Jun 17, 2009
Messages
6,254
Likes
8,215
Country flag
It has become a bad habit for china to rant on every thing that happens in the countries around it.

-> Japanese visit their war shrine - china rants
-> Vietnam drills in its own back yard - china rants
-> Phlippines fishes in its own seas - china rants
-> South korea sets up missile shield for its defence - china rants
-> A peaceful monk visits Indian state - china rants

These guys are dreaming to try to chew more than they can digest.

They should come out of their wet dreams, since no one is going to address their expansionist concerns.
 

AmoghaVarsha

Senior Member
Joined
Oct 4, 2016
Messages
1,268
Likes
1,669
Country flag
Someone wake up china.Their warning ministry means zilch to anyone.
 

Trinetra

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 30, 2017
Messages
260
Likes
552
Country flag
India has never truly had a deep thinking, strategic-oriented government in its history, barring the brief time with IG when she would rattle up everyone from Washington to Beijing.

This lack of strategic culture in India's political-military doctrine makes us a weak international player, resulting in very few countries choosing to openly align with us. China's strength is its ability to win trade wars with ease and ensure that their logistics remains uncompromised in case of a conflict. That's why they win.

PM Modi has tried hard moves in the recent years, but they are not hard enough as we are too keen on getting Chinese investments into the country and are unable to de-link the commercial and political interests. It would make far more sense for us to re-consider our over-reliance on Chinese for everything and look at establishing and consolidating the manufacturing ecosystem at least to the extent that it can satisfy our own demands.
I understand what you are trying to say here but you have to look at the global alignment of power which is not in favour right now for India.. You are right about previous lost opportunities. But the effort that are put by current government is appropriate as in this multi polar world we need our cheques and balance intact for the betterment of country.. and without Chinese investment most of the things wont go well in India simply because Chinese goods are cheap and industries want cheap product to deliver the goods cheaply to Indians.. Secondly we just started to be manufacturing power, so to tackle China we need some more time.. But the response right now is appropriate as per the circumstances.

To do that, we need to bring in aggressive reforms which checks dubious fifth column entities within India which subvert Indian interests through softer modes, at the same time take the hard stance on development policies, even if they are labelled almost authoritarian.
Authoritarian model will not work for us.. as we have already infused the socialism and populism in people's mind for seven decades and this will not go that easily.. remember China had the aggressive growth becuz of it was authoritarian regime which India isnt..

Open up about their disputes if they don't care about ours and make sure it irks them enough to keep them rattled, while strengthening the military might within. We are weak in assembling and manufacturing weapons, we are slow in indigenous design and innovation and for that, we are suffering political mess in the international arena.
We started our part just now so it will take minimum of 5-10 yrs time to catch up with China's manufacturing style..

So this means Germans would like to form a a strategic military thought process which is independent of Washington.

Germany and Japan need to get rid of their WW2 yokes and brace up to really make sense out of the G-4 meetings we hold: India, Germany, Japan and Brazil.
I believe G4 should create their own independent forum for world security if they dont get into security council.. and start making independent impartial decisions for small countries to gain their trust.. they have economic might to do it also..
 

Tshering22

Sikkimese Saber
Senior Member
Joined
Aug 20, 2010
Messages
4,948
Likes
4,866
Country flag
I understand what you are trying to say here but you have to look at the global alignment of power which is not in favour right now for India.. You are right about previous lost opportunities. But the effort that are put by current government is appropriate as in this multi polar world we need our cheques and balance intact for the betterment of country.. and without Chinese investment most of the things wont go well in India simply because Chinese goods are cheap and industries want cheap product to deliver the goods cheaply to Indians.. Secondly we just started to be manufacturing power, so to tackle China we need some more time.. But the response right now is appropriate as per the circumstances.
This is where the government needs to streamline manufacturing process with industry standards and get their whip cracking; after which a ban on certain chinese imports would do great wonders. Remember that China isn't a monopoly in everything. A lot of assembling and manufacturing is done in Malaysia, Vietnam, Poland, Indonesia and other such countries. China's quantity is higher and is cheaper yes. But we cannot keep funding their military war machine against our people.

China is using the economic stick of non-investments while is aggressively moving its war machine towards us in Sikkim and Arunachal Pradesh while you other region's Indians conveniently blow your money off on Oppo, Vivo, MI and other Chinese brands when their Korean, Taiwanese and Japanese alternatives are available.

Territorial integrity comes first and unless we clarify what democracy means, anarchy is going to rule India where a rowdy media is explicitly anti-national, an opposition whose stance favours that of Pakistan and China and an Indian society which is absolutely rudderless and directionless.

We need to get certain things very clear and I don't see us being able to challenge China in any meaningful way if we don't pull our socks up.

Authoritarian model will not work for us.. as we have already infused the socialism and populism in people's mind for seven decades and this will not go that easily.. remember China had the aggressive growth becuz of it was authoritarian regime which India isnt..
Not complete authoritarian model as that always ruins a country. But there has to be a certain element of authoritarianism compared to the anarchy that we have been governed by in the last 6 decades. I think the current government's intention is to bring a hybrid system where the government remains accountable but the opposition and media like mass communication elements don't become a subversive fifth column entity in the country.

Forget China; look at Singapore's and Taiwan's government models. They were quite authoritarian but within the limits of a democracy. They take swift decisions and do not hesitate to use force where it is needed (example,situation like terrorists and drug traffickers from our states here in NE, the naxals, kashmiri sunni muslims, religious rioting of a certain community, regionalist and linguistic violence etc).

If we have to be able to fight, we need to gradually clamp down and eliminate hostile elements that have misused the freedom of democracy and have infiltrated the country's political system.

As Buddha said, too much of anything is not good. Which also includes unchecked freedom and no punishments for illegal activities.

I believe G4 should create their own independent forum for world security if they dont get into security council.. and start making independent impartial decisions for small countries to gain their trust.. they have economic might to do it also..
G-4 will first need an aggressive push from India to get Germany and Japan back to their independent senses. No matter what our friends from there say, these two countries are overseas political territories of USA. They are not fully independent and have to take American consent for everything.

We need to assure them strong international support and commit big business deals with them such that they can rely on us and we can rely on them.

Shinzo Abe is at least trying; Merkel is literally a US puppet.

Brazil tried to be individually independent and see what happened. Their economy was re-engineered to go down by hostile forces.

We started our part just now so it will take minimum of 5-10 yrs time to catch up with China's manufacturing style..
In Indian set up, it will take more than 100 years if we are as lenient as we are right now. Chinese took the hard call of going in with full forceful discipline and see where they have reached. They encourage innovation and technology and from just copying foreign products, they have now become innovators in many areas.

How do you think they achieved that?

By leaving their population to do whatever they wanted? (in India, most careers are just to feed families rather than R&D and ambition which old insecure coots in established positions don't allow). Chinese universities are far ahead in research than any of our universities.

Why? Because China made certain things clear that if people don't do what government says, they will be legally liable. That's what India does wrong. We don't have the grit to take the hard decisions and we allow freedom to the level of anarchy.

This has to stop.

Let me say this; if aviation can have a regulatory body, if road transport can have a regulatory body, if films can have a censor board, if crimes can be check by the court and judicial system, who the hell says that we cannot have an independent regulatory body for regulating news and holding fifth column entities liable for spreading misinformation and mass panic?

We should.

We don't need to the West's blue eyed baby boy to keep getting pats on our back and be called an anarchy to remain backward.

India needs to focus on itself. Which we don't, citing foreign fears.
 
Last edited:

square

Strategic Issues
Senior Member
Joined
Oct 28, 2016
Messages
1,636
Likes
1,460
present world order been build after the ww2...

need is to have a new order..!!!
 

AmoghaVarsha

Senior Member
Joined
Oct 4, 2016
Messages
1,268
Likes
1,669
Country flag
If Japan goes back to its military offensive againist China watch the chinese piss their pants.

The Germans are another race not known to toe anyones line for too long.It wont be too long before they go independent.
 

Trinetra

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 30, 2017
Messages
260
Likes
552
Country flag
Forget China; look at Singapore's and Taiwan's government models. They were quite authoritarian but within the limits of a democracy. They take swift decisions and do not hesitate to use force where it is needed (example,situation like terrorists and drug traffickers from our states here in NE, the naxals, kashmiri sunni muslims, religious rioting of a certain community, regionalist and linguistic violence etc).
Singapore and Taiwan are not large populated country with extreme diversity like India and there people are smart and developed in mind that helped them to develop socially.. we lost the bus of a generation 70 years ago so we need more time to create the mindset.. till that time every bad things in India will continue unless we create a brand new unified society..

By leaving their population to do whatever they wanted? (in India, most careers are just to feed families rather than R&D and ambition which old insecure coots in established positions don't allow). Chinese universities are far ahead in research than any of our universities.

Why? Because China made certain things clear that if people don't do what government says, they will be legally liable. That's what India does wrong. We don't have the grit to take the hard decisions and we allow freedom to the level of anarchy.

This has to stop.

Let me say this; if aviation can have a regulatory body, if road transport can have a regulatory body, if films can have a censor board, if crimes can be check by the court and judicial system, who the hell says that we cannot have an independent regulatory body for regulating news and holding fifth column entities liable for spreading misinformation and mass panic?

We should.

We don't need to the West's blue eyed baby boy to keep getting pats on our back and be called an anarchy to remain backward.
These all sounds good for better society but who will revive the whole system where the evil deep rooted to many level.. U must have seen the intolerance brigade shouting for breaking India and for mere vote bank opposition party supported this move.. for 60 yrs congress rooted the evil ideology so deep that the current BJP govt. wont be able to remove it that easily.. We never need western eye to see through our society management.. we have now started to look through the society by our eyes only.. Its started now let see how far it goes..
 

Mikesingh

Professional
Joined
Sep 7, 2015
Messages
7,012
Likes
27,193
Country flag
If China says no, it's no! Period!

Unless of course the rules of the game are changed. A 2/3rd majority should be enough. It's silly to have 40 members say yes but even if one member opposes it, it's scuttled. Who made these rules? Idiots!!
 

Tshering22

Sikkimese Saber
Senior Member
Joined
Aug 20, 2010
Messages
4,948
Likes
4,866
Country flag
Singapore and Taiwan are not large populated country with extreme diversity like India and there people are smart and developed in mind that helped them to develop socially.. we lost the bus of a generation 70 years ago so we need more time to create the mindset.. till that time every bad things in India will continue unless we create a brand new unified society..
Excuses will not solve anything. We need a more forceful nationalist system stuffed down the throats of people. Compliance of law, civil responsibilities and reform in social and political education is key to getting it done. We Indians only cite excuses to bypass the main concerns: China has larger population so it manages with authoritarianism; Singapore has small population so it can afford to be authoritative.. bla bla bla.

Democracy in its current form is only doing more harm to India than good. Things need to be limited and every right needs to come with a corresponding duty. Without the duty, rights cannot be granted. Simple.
Unless PM Modi does a Lee Kwan Yew in authoritative governance, we won't get anywhere close to China ever.

Remember we have more than just Chinese as potential adversaries; Pakistan and its loose nexus of islamists who have a strong foothold among India's foreign religions' minorities and are successful in brainwashing them.
 

Tshering22

Sikkimese Saber
Senior Member
Joined
Aug 20, 2010
Messages
4,948
Likes
4,866
Country flag
These all sounds good for better society but who will revive the whole system where the evil deep rooted to many level.. U must have seen the intolerance brigade shouting for breaking India and for mere vote bank opposition party supported this move.. for 60 yrs congress rooted the evil ideology so deep that the current BJP govt. wont be able to remove it that easily.. We never need western eye to see through our society management.. we have now started to look through the society by our eyes only.. Its started now let see how far it goes..
Semi-authoritarianism will actually solve this bold problem. It will take many behind-the-scenes purgings but that is the only way to sort out this evil menace.
 

Tshering22

Sikkimese Saber
Senior Member
Joined
Aug 20, 2010
Messages
4,948
Likes
4,866
Country flag
If Japan goes back to its military offensive againist China watch the chinese piss their pants.

The Germans are another race not known to toe anyones line for too long.It wont be too long before they go independent.
Japan and Germany won't.

While Japan is trying, it is miserably failing at becoming more independent. Their ecosystem is so entwined with the United States that it will take a relentless 5-10 years before Japan can be an independent power pillar in itself. During this time, it will have to revive its economic growth through easier reforms and reducing living and government costs. Japan will also have to deal with its dying population which is a problem, especially since their work culture is so brutal that people just don't get married and have kids there.

Japanese friends might be supportive of us in a conflict, but I don't see Japan going independent from the US-yoke for a long time to come.

Germany, on the other hand, is very much possible. With Merkel exiting the Chancellery this year, people can very much expect a more conservative, NATO-skeptic leader in power, especially given the friction that US has with its European partners recently with Mr. Toupee handing Germans a bill of $350 billion as "coalition expenses".

But with the given situation of Turkish volatility and its increasingly motor-mouthed president Erdogan looking at re-creating the Ottoman Empire, Germany will need strong military allies. An EU military without UK is not much, especially since the only European power with moderate fighting experience are the French. Germans haven't fought half a war properly in the last 70 years.
 

Cutting Edge 2

Space Power
Regular Member
Joined
Apr 17, 2017
Messages
984
Likes
1,962
Keep building the pressure. With all other members on our side, sooner or later China too will fall in line.
No let up in efforts to secure NSG membership: India
NEW DELHI: Notwithstanding China's opposition to its entry into the NSG, India said today that it will continue its engagement with member countries and there will be no let up in its efforts to work towards securing the membership of the elite group.

This assumes significance after China, earlier this week, said there is no change in its stance on admission of non-NPT states into the Nuclear Suppliers Group (NSG), ahead of the grouping's plenary meeting next month in Switzerland.

"Our efforts for an NSG membership will continue. We will continue to be engaged with member countries. Our efforts will continue and there will be no let up in our efforts," Gopal Baglay, Ministry of External Affairs Spokesperson, said.

The plenary session of the NSG is likely to be held in the Swiss capital Bern next month, but the chances of any breakthrough on India's entry into the elite group still look slim, given China's persistent opposition to it.

India on its part has been continuing its effort to get support of other members of the grouping.

As Prime Minister Narendra Modi visits Germany, Spain, Russia and France next week, the issue is expected to come up for discussion with the leaders of these four countries.

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...nsg-membership-india/articleshow/58845588.cms
 

Mikesingh

Professional
Joined
Sep 7, 2015
Messages
7,012
Likes
27,193
Country flag
No let up in efforts to secure NSG membership: India
NEW DELHI: Notwithstanding China's opposition to its entry into the NSG, India said today that it will continue its engagement with member countries and there will be no let up in its efforts to work towards securing the membership of the elite group.
Do what we may, but the bottom line is that if China says no it's no! Period! And it's going to be another no from the Hans.

Frikkin nonsensical rules. It should have been a majority vote procedure.

No change in China's stance must be music to Porki ears.
 

mayfair

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 26, 2010
Messages
6,032
Likes
13,058
China will not budge from its stand and neither will India. It's a stalemate and so shall it remain for the foreseeable future.

Our best bet is to enter into bilateral cooperation will willing countries bypassing NSG as much as possible and shore up our indigenous efforts.
 

Mikesingh

Professional
Joined
Sep 7, 2015
Messages
7,012
Likes
27,193
Country flag
China will not budge from its stand and neither will India. It's a stalemate and so shall it remain for the foreseeable future.

Our best bet is to enter into bilateral cooperation will willing countries bypassing NSG as much as possible and shore up our indigenous efforts.
We can obtain enough nuke fuel even without being a member of the NSG. But the NSG is a status symbol, like a seat on the high table of the Security Council which is as useless as tits on a boar hog.
 

mayfair

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 26, 2010
Messages
6,032
Likes
13,058
We can obtain enough nuke fuel even without being a member of the NSG. But the NSG is a status symbol, like a seat on the high table of the Security Council which is as useless as tits on a boar hog.
It's not just about nuclear fuel, it's also about the technology. Fuel we can already get as a part of the NSG waiver, which is why we were able to sign agreements with Kazakhastan, Australia and Canada for Uranium.

What we also need is access to new and improved technologies for reactor design, cooling and power generation and it's difficult without becoming a member of NSG, Wassenar arrangement or the Australia group, which controls the export and transfer of nuclear know how and dual-use technology.

The reason we signed MTCR was not just prestige, but also to gain easier access to improved technology for seekers, guidance systems, alloys etc.
 

Cutting Edge 2

Space Power
Regular Member
Joined
Apr 17, 2017
Messages
984
Likes
1,962
We can obtain enough nuke fuel even without being a member of the NSG. But the NSG is a status symbol, like a seat on the high table of the Security Council which is as useless as tits on a boar hog.
Without NSG we can't export reactors and other tech to other countries. In today's energy starved world exporting reactors has become a lucrative business. China is currently competing with their reactors in developing countries. Another reason why China doesn't want india in NSG.
 

Latest Replies

Global Defence

Articles

Top