China Copies BrahMos

[ladder]

India is "nothing"?

yes China is the middle kingdom, which again is centre of universe. But who was ( in not so distant history ) shown middle finger by................................

( I like to give fill in the blank assignments to those, who are still in school.)

 

[sgarg]

India is "nothing"?

These one-liners do not help. We want to understand the viewpoint of Chinese on strategic matters.
My advice to @LETHALFORCE is to avoid inflammatory language as well.

Russia is free to sell to China. India has never protested such sales.
India may have asked Russia to stop a sale to Pakistan but India has grown wiser and more realistic.

China has to make a realistic policy for South Asia. Any Chinese south asia policy has to take India into account.

 

[sorcerer]

India is "nothing"?

Well! Then why is your kings worried about every move India makes with our neighbors?
Then there is something.
It could be the realization that your defence establishments have to fill a large void between the know-how and the 'copy, build, paint' jobs or that these large scale air show and expo will expose the show on large scale when it meets reality.

One day or the other the real strength of China will be tested at all levels by seasoned USA .Thats a start of many starts.

 

[sgarg]

One day or the other the real strength of China will be tested at all levels by seasoned USA .Thats a start of many starts.

A lot of Indians know nothing about China. A lot of Chinese know nothing about India. Unfortunately Indians are more exposed to USA they have come to worship all things USA.

I do not under-estimate the Chinese.

Let us make an effort to understand people from other side of the border.

 

[Srinivas_K]

India is "nothing"?

Fine if India is nothing, China is nothing in that nothing !!

 

[sorcerer]

A lot of Indians know nothing about China. A lot of Chinese know nothing about India. Unfortunately Indians are more exposed to USA they have come to worship all things USA.

I do not under-estimate the Chinese.

Let us make an effort to understand people from other side of the border.

worship all things USA... Really? For one thing I know, most Indians say not to trust USA. Even Indian media is not kind to USA and treats them with scepticism..
Nobody is underestimating China or any other nation, we should not over estimate China too, misinterpret and compromise our moves.
Are we all not! What we fail to understand is the void between what China says and what it does in real. This is where the effort is.
One way is to take what is percieved and deal with it in Kind, not trying to decipher what they 'intent, like the way our border incursions are dealt with.
It is already understood with China that, what we understand is mostly what China want us to misunderstand.

 

[sgarg]

@sorcerer, you need a lot of information to arrive at a decent conclusion. The kind of analysis you want to do is best left to experts who sift through a lot of China data. Believe me there must be more than 100 experts in Delhi who just focus on China.

What GOI does is based on sound advice. The moves on the border reflects the military view as well as intelligence view.

You may think GOI is misinterpreting Chinese moves but that may not be the case.

The desire to coexist with China peacefully is a genuine desire of all Indian people. This may or may not happen. But the effort is always in this direction.

 

[sorcerer]

@sgarg
Well, I understand that factor very well. You or me and all in DFI are discussing our point of views. It has nothing to do with consensus national. .

I am not saying GOI is misintepreting the data. I meant, we dont know if we are misintepreting what CHina want us to misinterpret.What we say here has nothing to do with GOI or their capabilities in analysis. We all know GOI is doing great job.

My point of view was the way China says and act: What I said was based on the Skirmish that happened in Indian border when Xi was here in India with PM Modi.Xi conveyed to PM Modi that he was not aware of the border intrusion by PLA. Later Xi has to pull up the PLA and as them to behave.

Its kinda like, Pakistan Govt who wants to talk peace with India and as we take the steps ,the PAK ranger fire on to the Indian side of LOC, toppling up the peace process.

Well, the "desire to coexist" is genuine desire. but when such misadventures happen everytime, the progress towards peace come under scrutiny. No matter how much Govts want to talk, if the condition and environment for talk is clouded, the intentions become questionable.
Effort for any country is always in the direction of peace, especially countries like India who rely so much on peace and stability of the region. My point being China says and acts differently.

NOw that we have completed a full circle here. We can start all over again.What say?

 

[sgarg]

@sorcerer, there is a difference between Chinese and Pakistani. Pakistani fire first and ask questions later. China has disputes but the border is quite.

There are problems but the resolution will be found by building trust, rather than by quarrelling.

 

[sorcerer]

@sgarg
I differ on that. Pakis fire first but keeps their mouth shut when questions are asked.
Pak has a different method. They fire along the border to create diversions for infiltrating terrorists into J&K.

In effect, when the GOVTs of both India and Pak is on the verge of peace talk or bilateral talks, Pak Rangers fire on the LOC creating tensions. The bilateral talks breaks down. the peace breaks down.

With China, when their CCP rulers are here for bilateral talks and peace talks, the PLA intrude into Indian territory creating undue tension. The result is China is seen with doubts.

In effect both the armies , PAK rangers and PLA does the same damage to the regional peace.

Border is quiet? Just because, there is no firing doesnt mean that there is no escalation. WHen PLA enter into Indian territory without consent, it can be constituted as an attack on this nation.
Was it quiet when the PLA pitched in tents inside Indian side? Even recently it was cuz of the ITBPF's prompt action that, another infiltration from PLA was prevented.

Firing is one thing, escalating it to levels unforeseen cannot be called "unfortunate" when it spirals out of control.

Building trust will work when words and action match; only then can give a climate for peace talk.

 

[Abhishek Tanwar]

The Brahmos is not a purely Indian missile. It is a joint venture between Russia and India - Agree but there was a agreement that technology of AGNI is not for copyright like Microsoft windows but Russian takes advantage because we depends on Russia in so many matters . Russia betrayed us and we are alone and the matter of fact we don't have any friend ,We have only business Partners.

 

[sgarg]

@sorcerer, suggest an action plan? What should be done?

I also suggest you join Indian Army and go to the border to fight.

 

[sorcerer]

@sgarg

Call for peace from China and at the same time showing contradrictory moves is not comforting for GoI and our armed forces.
Reports from the media and else where, India is doing what she can now, improving her border infrastructure, her political alliance with allies and all.

For a country who believes in
"Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun."- Mao Tse-tung,

I believe
"To be prepared for war is one of the most effectual means of preserving peace."-George Washington

**Dont get carried away, Its not about you or me.

 

[sgarg]

@sorcerer, what is comforting to "OUR ARMED FORCES"??

You are firing in the air.

The infrastructure in border areas HAS TO BE BUILT. The previous government was also trying to do it but its execution was poor.

Indian army posts and bases are there along the entire northern border. There is no new development there.

The increase in Indian army strength is due to nature of the border. The mountainous terrain requires higher manpower, as movement is slow.

I have said elsewhere that size of Indian Army specially in terms of reserves is still on the lower side compared to the size of population and length of borders.

The size of the army will grow as the population increases.

The talks with China must continue even if defence forces are strengthened.

 

[sorcerer]

@sgarg
Yes, you are emphasising what I already mentioned.
I said the GOI is currently doing it.

India is doing what she can now

The border infrastructure was in shambles but the new Govt is having its focus on the modernisation of armed forces as well as doing what should be done, which is long overdue.

Who said about not talking to China. What I said was , the talks with China derails when unwanted intrusion takes place on the border from the part of PLA. The world over there is a concern about the probable 'disconnect' between PLA and its CCP leaders. There is concern that a part of PLA had gone rogue.(Nobody knows if that is true or is that another game plan).
WIth such misunderstandings, there can be no peace.

Well, we have completed another full circle here. But do continue to derail the topic on Brahmos. Thank you!

 

[sgarg]

@sorcerer, we know China is a complex country. We know that we may not get success with China. Still we have to try.

The incident during Xi's visit should not be given too much importance. As I said we need to make an effort to understand China. We have to build people to people contact. It is a long road. We are not much far along on the "trust" part. The only part developed so far is trade.

It may take years or decades to develop "trust". But we have to be serious and keep on trying.

We cannot do much about internal politics of China. We just do not have leverage.

 

[sorcerer]

@sgarg
I agree. At the same time, we have to have a strong posturing with credibilities.