BrahMos - Submarine launched version

[ersakthivel]

Re: BrahMos signifies lack of planning in Defence

Please do not negate yourself....

You or the reporter rightly said that underwater Brahmos launch neither has a plateform to launch or a doctrine to support it...

Then why did DRDO make it ?

Where is the NSQR for it ?

The DRDO made it and poofed off thousands of crores to impress Mr Antony and get a news report ?

That is what the reporter says and that is the job of a reporter as he is not a DREDO...

it is a common practice to adopt one missile system across the services. Can you shed light on the ASR for the air launched version of Brahmos that is going to be integrated with the SUKHOI ? What was the air war doctrine that led to the development of air launched version of Brahmos?.Was it developed to simply win some Padma awards ? or it is a hobby horse of DRDO?



The guys in the navy are not futurists to spring a requirement ten years before Brahmos under sea vertical launch version is developed. Only if DRDO develops the tech will Navy consider including it in Project 75 or Arihant or what so ever. tomorrow for some reason if the russians don't supply critical spares or some other exigency arises,or demand exorbitant prices for Klub class misiles, what is the Navy supposed to do? Lick their ass? It is to avoid these sort of situation that world class weapons like BRAHMOS are developed locally and it is common sense to design future platforms according to theses local versions.

Brahmos has the potential of being indigenised 100 percent in a step by step manner. Does the the klub class missile has this option?

So how did you determine the thousands of crores!!! that were poofed by DERDO in developing such a critical tech as a colossal waste?

Who gave the GSQR for Prithvi, Agni or Nirbhay?

 

[sayareakd]

Re: BrahMos signifies lack of planning in Defence

What you are saying is that it is all right for DRDO to develop systems and plateforms not to serve a doctrine / Service and not for induction but for claiming a few Padma awards ? And / or ask a few more thousand crores of tax payers money ..?

It is JV with Russia, so your Russia with love also get pie of those thousand crores of tax payers money. This time corrupt servicewala wont get a dime. Is that concerns you ?

 

[ersakthivel]

LoL good one. The Idiots wanting tube launched Brahmos must first get their heads out of their butts. With Klub filling that role I see no need to put Brahmos into tubes. Design the new sub with iit in mind and put a few on Arihants to turn it into our own Oscars.

Why should we design a new sub based on Klub. we can buy as well the whole subs from the Russians like the way we are buying Klub. Won't it be a much better option?
By this way we can forever place our heads on the russian butts.

 

[Bheeshma]

Nope. Amur-1650 simply will not cut it. Time Navy went for a something bigger than can take AIP, VLS and has a good range. If given a choice I would go with Soryu class.

 

[Bhadra]

Re: BrahMos signifies lack of planning in Defence

it is a common practice to adopt one missile system across the services. Can you shed light on the ASR for the air launched version of Brahmos that is going to be integrated with the SUKHOI ? What was the air war doctrine that led to the development of air launched version of Brahmos?.Was it developed to simply win some Padma awards ? or it is a hobby horse of DRDO?

The guys in the navy are not futurists to spring a requirement ten years before Brahmos under sea version is developed. Only if DRDO develops the tech will Navy consider including it in Project 75 or Arihant or what so ever. tomorrow for some reason if the russians don't supply critical spares and demand exorbitant prices for Klub class misiles, what is the Navy supposed to do? Lick their ass?

Brahmos has the potential of being indigenised 100 percent in a step by step manner. Does the the klub class missile has this option?

Who gave the GSQR for Prithvi, Agni or Nirbhay?

Look, there is no need to have a Reaserch organisation which makes Bhoot Chilli or something like that which has no application...

For air launched Brahmos (which is only in talks) a plateform exist which can be modified (Not modified - Russian will do that and not DRDO)...
For ground launched brahmos - Army or SFC have clearly indicated their desire to have a cruise missile. When Russian and DREDOs made a supersonic versions, they have all ordered it not that they have any choice.

But for underwater sytem, it is an exercise in self aggredisement as neither avaialability of plateform nor neval war doctrines have been kept in view. This missile has been made by DRDO only for theselves and to assuge their egos..

DRDO is trying to dictate how will they fight the war and what sytem they will use... That is bizzare.. OK..

 

[ersakthivel]

Re: BrahMos signifies lack of planning in Defence

Look, there is no need to have a Reaserch organisation which makes Bhoot Chilli or something like that which has no application...

For air launched Brahmos (which is only in talks) a plateform exist which can be modified (Not modified - Russian will do that and not DRDO)...
For ground launched brahmos - Army or SFC have clearly indicated their desire to have a cruise missile. When Russian and DREDOs made a supersonic versions, they have all ordered it not that they have any choice.

But for underwater sytem, it is an exercise in self aggredisement as neither avaialability of plateform nor neval war doctrines have been kept in view. This missile has been made by DRDO only for theselves and to assuge their egos..

DRDO is trying to dictate how will they fight the war and what sytem they will use... That is bizzare.. OK..

So why are you dictating that the future indian Subs should fight only with Klub class missiles? Let the navy choose it.

What is bizzare about giving an option of inducting 360 degree capable ,worlds most deadliest anti ship missile , that can be locally manufactured 100 percent in future to the Indian Navy's future subs?

So according to you if there is a possibility of modifying an existing platform for inducting the deadly brahmos with russian help we should go for it. But if there is a possibility of including it in the design phase of the future p-75 class or any other sub , we should not avail of it.Is that correct?

So DERDO should not take any initiative in this regard without russian participation. Most of the tech of this vertical launch tech is identical to the K-15 tech not developed exclusively for brahmos to gain in any grand "aggredisement". So no need for you to say that 1000s os crores were poofed for this launch.

 

[roma]

Re: India Test Fires Underwater Version of Brahmos Missile

Exactly the opposite.
Aircraft careers have destroyers , frigates and subs in carrier battle groups. these escort ships have potent anti missile defences.getting through them just with a few missiles is not so easy. they enforce sea denial and economic strangulation of the target entity one of the most important objectives of any modern war.

Say some one wants to target an AC with a 300 km range brahmos cruise missile. the crux of the problem is how to get close enough to launch the missile on an AC in high seas.because the carrier battle groups dominate vast swathe of high seas. And the fighter of the AC dominate the airspace above the carrier battle group.

So it is very difficult either to get a fighter or a naval asset close enough to launch a 300 km supersonic cruise missile on an AC, even if it is done there are defences spread 100s of kilometers around the AC to take care. The Brahmos has only terminal super agility capacity. but it will have to face counter measures through out the 300 km flight to the AC. Not a simple task.

the range of BrahMos should come around to 500-600km when launched from a fighter, so BrahMos can b launched from a platform which is out of the CBGs tracking range.
and even if its launched within 300km from the CBG, its a sea-skimming missile so it won't b detected until only when it appears over the horizon,
most anti-ship missiles hav ranges lesser than BrahMos,
and the launch platform is also protected from incoming missiles.

Sirs - thanks for your replies ....your point about brahmos being 300 km range is a good one and well-taken

i should have specified earlier that im looking at a scenario perhaps a decade down the road where there will be more missiles not only brahmos which are hypersonic , submarine-launched application available and with range of 700 km - not an unrealistic scenario because we're already working on 700 km range

my main points therefore hinge on the following - you don not have to be "that " close to the AC to begin the launch

given that most missile defence is VERY MUCH MORE DIFFICULT than the target missile level of success, the chances of defending is much more difficult than the chances of success when attacking - i.e launching the hypersonic missile

an AC missile defence system is very much more a success in theory rather than in practice - even those missile defence systems tested so far are via collision in the air at high altitiudes raher than the naval versions of low altitude

even given that brahmos is hypersonic at the later stages - i put it to this forum that IN REALITY a credible missile defence ( naval version ) for AC , does NOT exist and is a very very difficult proposition - the AC therefore remains a sitting duck if LARGE ENOUGH numbers of hypersonic missiles are aimed at it - because even if some are stopped a few will still get through and those will be enough to cause havoc .

and india shouldnt waste further voluminous resources chasing that bottomless pit GORSHKOV project with the loser AC concept but rather go for nuke subs and develop ICBM launch capability from those

it will be money far better spent

...most grateful for a debate on this topic - thanks in advance .

 

[Bhadra]

Re: BrahMos signifies lack of planning in Defence

So why are you dictating that the future indian Subs should fight only with Klub class missiles? Let the navy choose it.

What is bizzare about giving an option of inducting 360 degree capable ,worlds most deadliest anti ship missile , that can be locally manufactured 100 percent in future to the Indian Navy's future subs?

so you poof of billions for "giving a option" for a submarine which does not even exist in design.. Hell of a lecture..

So DERDO should not take any initiative in this regard without russian participation. Most of the tech of this vertical launch tech is identical to the K-15 tech not developed exclusively for brahmos to gain in any grand "aggredisement". So no need for you to say that 1000s os crores were poofed for this launch.

Just do not provoke me if you want to convey this achivement is witout or within...

Russian or not russian is not the question... the question is priorities and focus of DREDOs which is not necessarily Services oriented.. Country oriented... but self aggendisement..

 

[ersakthivel]

Re: India Test Fires Underwater Version of Brahmos Missile

Sirs - thanks for your replies ....your point about brahmos being 300 km range is a good one and well-taken

i should have specified earlier that im looking at a scenario perhaps a decade down the road where there will be more missiles not only brahmos which are hypersonic , submarine-launched application available and with range of 700 km - not an unrealistic scenario because we're already working on 700 km range

An aircraft carrier battle group is a multi billion dollar asset. it will be defended with most modern anti missile defences. A cruise missile is deadly only at the business end of the closing maneuvers . it is fairly predictable in it's mid flight and unlike fighters they will always be dumb with no self protection maneuvers in mid flight.

No country will allow a strategic asset like AC to be at the mercy of a cruise missile. If a longer range hypersonic cruise missile arrives the defences of the AC will be beefed up. Have in mind that in future fighters based on Ac will also be capable of launching air to air missiles against these cruise missiles which fly in a fairly predictable path during the mid flight. And ASEA radars are capable of picking up these cruise missiles 50 kms away.

my main points therefore hinge on the following - you don not have to be "that " close to the AC to begin the launch

given that most missile defence is VERY MUCH MORE DIFFICULT than the target missile level of success, the chances of defending is much more difficult than the chances of success when attacking - i.e launching the hypersonic missile

it is applicable only against ballistic missiles which will have a terminal velocity of mach 17 plus and are capable of deploying decoys and following un predictable path near the target, not against cruise missiles that fly at mach 7 in a fairly predictable mid flight with no counter measures.

an AC missile defence system is very much more a success in theory rather than in practice - even those missile defence systems tested so far are via collision in the air at high altitiudes raher than the naval versions of low altitude

even given that brahmos is hypersonic at the later stages - i put it to this forum that IN REALITY a credible missile defence ( naval version ) for AC , does NOT exist and is a very very difficult proposition - the AC therefore remains a sitting duck if LARGE ENOUGH numbers of hypersonic missiles are aimed at it - because even if some are stopped a few will still get through and those will be enough to cause havoc .

and india shouldnt waste further voluminous resources chasing that bottomless pit GORSHKOV project time with AC's but rather go for nuke subs and develop ICBM launch capability from those

it will be money far better spent

...most grateful for a debate on this topic - thanks in advance .

ofcourse even a stray hit will sink the carrier. No doubt about it they are vulnerable. But in time defences against them will be developed is my idea.

 

[ersakthivel]

Re: BrahMos signifies lack of planning in Defence

So why are you dictating that the future indian Subs should fight only with Klub class missiles? Let the navy choose it.

What is bizzare about giving an option of inducting 360 degree capable ,worlds most deadliest anti ship missile , that can be locally manufactured 100 percent in future to the Indian Navy's future subs?

so you poof of billions for "giving a option" for a submarine which does not even exist in design.. Hell of a lecture..

So DERDO should not take any initiative in this regard without russian participation. Most of the tech of this vertical launch tech is identical to the K-15 tech not developed exclusively for brahmos to gain in any grand "aggredisement". So no need for you to say that 1000s os crores were poofed for this launch.

Just do not provoke me if you want to convey this achivement is witout or within...

Russian or not russian is not the question... the question is priorities and focus of DREDOs which is not necessarily Services oriented.. Country oriented... but self aggendisement..

Don't side step the issue. the tech for Brahmos under water vertical launch is just a derivative of the K-15 under water vertical launch. It is not separate r& D venture which cost billions of dollars and where is the proof for "self aggendisement". If you have proof then give me the link.

So who decides that in future all cruise missiles of India must be klubs that are to be launched from torpedo tubes and not the hyper sonic indigenous Brahmos with dedicated vertical launch platforms that give 360 deg capability?Who is the authority to decide that this capability is superfluous?

 

[Bhadra]

Re: BrahMos signifies lack of planning in Defence

Don't side step the issue. the tech for Brahmos under water vertical launch is just a derivative of the K-15 under water vertical launch. It is not separate r& D venture which cost billions of dollars and where is the proof for "self aggendisement". If you have proof then give me the link.

So who decides that in future all cruise missiles of India must be klubs that are to be launched from torpedo tubes and not the hyper sonic indigenous Brahmos with dedicated vertical launch platforms that give 360 deg capability?Who is the authority to decide that this capability is superfluous?

Thik Hai....

If IN has no plateform for your underwater Brahmos.... tum apana Barhmos kud Chalana...

Theek hai ... Pantton se chalana ... Ha Ha Ha ...

 

[ersakthivel]

Re: BrahMos signifies lack of planning in Defence

Thik Hai....

If IN has no plateform for your underwater Brahmos.... tum apana Barhmos kud Chalana...

Theek hai ... Pantton se chalana ... Ha Ha Ha ...

It is a futuristic missile that is to be integrated with future Indian subs , if the navy goes for it. That's all.

if navy does not want it it is their call. Nobody is going to force them to include it in future subs. A vertical launch with 360 deg capability is a unique proposition. If navy deems it fit it will be added. if navy think it is not that important to warrant additional space and stuff in the form of a separate vertical launcher arrangement let it say that. Don't foreclose their options.



Also converting this vertical launch into a torpedo tube arrangement is not a rocket science perhaps. Just because the K-15 had vertical launch the DRDO used it. If the navy wants it to be torpedo tube launched then there is time to evolve the tech.

 

[nrj]

Re: BrahMos signifies lack of planning in Defence

What you are saying is that it is all right for DRDO to develop systems and plateforms not to serve a doctrine / Service and not for induction but for claiming a few Padma awards ? And / or ask a few more thousand crores of tax payers money ..?

They will test it from another pontoon in another 4 weeks & there will be another celebration. Building subs according to Pillai's missile is like building a kingdom because someone claimed to be king.

 

[nrj]

Re: BrahMos signifies lack of planning in Defence

Only if DRDO develops the tech will Navy consider including it in Project 75 or Arihant or what so ever.

They haven't invented any tech. Those vertical launchers are universal and are used for clubs and other missile even when brahmos was not there. Brahmos corp didn't come up with any holy mary idea for Navy to say Wow! and consider it in new projects.

 

[ersakthivel]

Re: BrahMos signifies lack of planning in Defence

They haven't invented any tech. Those vertical launchers are universal and are used for clubs and other missile even when brahmos was not there. Brahmos corp didn't come up with any holy mary idea for Navy to say Wow! and consider it in new projects.

So if Klub's vertical launchers are universal then there is nothing wrong in DRDO demonstrating the the same standard tech for the brahmos I suppose.it's just a derivative of K-15 tech and no separate R&D project wasting 1000s of crores in taxpayer money..

 

[nrj]

Re: BrahMos signifies lack of planning in Defence

So if Klub uses vertical launchers are so universal then there is nothing wrong in DRDO demonstrating the the same standard tech for the brahmos I suppose.

Except the fact that silly reporters crying about lack of platform & thereby lecturing defense planning.

They can keep testing from pontoons or build submarine for themselves.

Point I made in last post is that, what is being presented is nothing new to Navy.

 

[Armand2REP]

the range of BrahMos should come around to 500-600km when launched from a fighter, so BrahMos can b launched from a platform which is out of the CBGs tracking range.
and even if its launched within 300km from the CBG, its a sea-skimming missile so it won't b detected until only when it appears over the horizon,


most anti-ship missiles hav ranges lesser than BrahMos,
and the launch platform is also protected from incoming missiles.

The range of air launched Brahmos won't be much different since it loses its booster which serves the same function if getting it to cruise profile.

 

[trackwhack]

Re: BrahMos signifies lack of planning in Defence

They haven't invented any tech. Those vertical launchers are universal and are used for clubs and other missile even when brahmos was not there. Brahmos corp didn't come up with any holy mary idea for Navy to say Wow! and consider it in new projects.

What he meant was that the missile be tested from that platform as well to show proof of concept that bramhos or its future variants can be developed as an option for our future SSN's

 

[sayareakd]

exactly that is the idea to have Brahmos underwater missile with this type of unmanned vehicle

to be either towed or on top of submarine. like this

as and when situation demand, it will be release and put in firing position behind the submarine with cable attached to it and fired.

check the mini sub in the video.

 

[arnabmit]

Indian and Russian submarines to be armed with BrahMos missiles: Russian Radio

On Wednesday, March 20, India conducted first-ever tests of the supersonic cruise missile "BrahMos", designed for deployment on board submarines, officials with BrahMos Aerospace said.

The missile was launched at 14:10 local time (12:40 MSK) from a submerged position off the coast of the southern state of Andhra Pradesh in the Bay of Bengal near the city of Visakhapatnam. The tests were successful: the rocket is ready to be installed on submarines, the tender for the purchase of which has already been placed.

Company officials did not rule out the possibility of installing missiles on Russian-made "Amur-1650" submarines developed by the Central Design Bureau for Marine Engineering (CDB ME). The company "Rubin" will also take part in the tender.

BrahMos missiles is capable of attacking targets at a maximum distance of 290 km, at an altitude of 10 meters above the ground. BrahMos is already in service with Indian Navy.