Aryan Invasion Hypothesis

[Bhadra]

Racial slurs? The communities themselves like these terms. Dalits like to call themselves as Dalits and so do Jats and Gujjars.
The communities I named are primarily descendants of Aryan invaders as they have high western eurasian component which they got from Aryas. I was talking about biological aspect not cultural. Culturally, they may be pure Aryas.

From your arguments and standard of thinking, I can make out you are going to prove that Manu was son of some Eurasian Brahmin who travelled to India to classify Jats and Gujjars as vaisya (peasent) communities born out of foreign invaders as Hindus.

AIT is by now a passé.

 

[Pratap]

These are Tamil women

This is " Amma " CM of Tamil Nadu

The deniers want us to believe that Iyengars came from north. True, but why not all north Indians look like this( not even 5 pc)?

 

[Pratap]

From your arguments and standard of thinking, I can make out you are going to prove that Manu was son of some Eurasian Brahmin who travelled to India to classify Jats and Gujjars as vaisya (peasent) communities born out of foreign invaders as Hindus.

AIT is by now a passé.

My argument is that aryas came to Gandhara, mixed with locals creating a population which was as much European descent as Indian. This hybrid population then became bearer of Indo Aryan classical civilization and moved and spread over entire Jambudvip spreading its language, genes and culture. Due to mixing with locals, diversity increased but core has reamined to this day. Some of the people who were formed in Gandhara lived as nomadic pastoralists till 700AD when expansion of agriculture allowed them to enter into settled agricultural population. These were Jats and Gujjars.
Manu's paternal ancestors came to India atleast 1200 years before he was born. Khatris( Punjabi kshatriyas who later became traders) have shown frequency of R1a1a as much high as 70 percent which means that they have remained relatively pure down to this day after getting it from Eurasian ancestors.

Is it any wonder that most of our Abhinetas and Abhinetris have been of Khatri origin? Compare Dalits of Punjab with Kapurs, Khuranas, Puris, Khannas and Kohlis.

 

[Bhadra]

My argument is that aryas came to Gandhara, mixed with locals creating a population which was as much European descent as Indian. This hybrid population then became bearer of Indo Aryan classical civilization and moved and spread over entire Jambudvip spreading its language, genes and culture. Due to mixing with locals, diversity increased but core has reamined to this day. Some of the people who were formed in Gandhara lived as nomadic pastoralists till 700AD when expansion of agriculture allowed them to enter into settled agricultural population. These were Jats and Gujjars.
Manu's paternal ancestors came to India atleast 1200 years before he was born. Khatris( Punjabi kshatriyas who later became traders) have shown frequency of R1a1a as much high as 70 percent which means that they have remained relatively pure down to this day after getting it from Eurasian ancestors.

Is it any wonder that most of our Abhinetas and Abhinetris have been of Khatri origin? Compare Dalits of Punjab with Kapurs, Khuranas, Puris, Khannas and Kohlis.

It has been refuted time and again.....

The imaginary theory is just based on some linguistic similarity...

It has been proved on linguistics basis that the original language is Sanskrit and not some Gypsy dialect....

When language travels, it gets modified. Maximum modification are out side rather than in Sanskrit itself.

There are far too many arguments to prove that Aryans did not migrate from outside and from their literature it can not be established. Like Babur they did not ape for the fruits, animals. birds, flora and fauna not existing in India but of the place one comes from. Babur died aping for the grapes and melons of Afghanistan. Vedas do not speak of camels, double hump camels, some camel urine, ostriches and tree not existing in Aryavarta. Migrants always carry their collective memories down the generations in their rituals and motifs. It is so evident from those who migrated form Pakistan or East Bengal . It is also evident in some of the Anglo Indian and Pathan familes cultures. Some of their culture and traditions would be carried down to the generation and shall remain part of their collective consciousness.

Unless you want to prove that "Savitri" of Vedas is actually a goddess of Iranians and Soma and Varuna were Turkish Gods.

By your theory of being "fair" like khatries of Punjab, you are bound to declare all fair Pathans like Khans pure Aryans and Hindu forefathers.

 

[Pratap]

Koenrad Elst, a pro Hindu author, noted that there were indeed racial and physical differences between those who were high in varna system and those who were low. His theory is that since people who were vedic aryans moved from northwestern areas of Punjab and established civilization, the dominant classes would necessarily be closer to northwestern phenotypes everywhere. So far good. But what about differences between Khatris and Dalit Hindus of Pakistan? Mamla pechida hai bhaiyya.

See these hindu dalits of Sindh

 

[Pratap]

It has been refuted time and again.....

The imaginary theory is just based on some linguistic similarity...

It has been proved on linguistics basis that the original language is Sanskrit and not some Gypsy dialect....

When language travels, it gets modifies. Maximum modification are out side rather than in Sanskrit itself.

There are far too many arguments to prove that Aryans did not migrate from outside and from there literature it can not be established that like Babur they did not ape for the fruits, animals. birds, flora and fauna not existing in India but of the place one comes from. Vedas do not speak of camels, double hump camels, some camel urine ostriches and tree not existing in Aryavarta.

These are dead arguments.

 

[Bhadra]

As the Chinese say, a picture is worth thousand words. Haplogroup R is certainly flowing into India from Pontic Steppes.

Yah, India was a magnetic black hole that every thing could come in but not go out. And since when have Chinese saying become canons of history ?

 

[Bhadra]

These are dead arguments.

Look who is talking...

 

[Pratap]

Yah, India was a magnetic black hole that every thing could come in but not go out. And since when have Chinese saying become canons of history ?

Indian arts, literature and religion, manners and mores, food and dress all did go out and engulfed entire Asia. However, these are what really matters as they occured when there were identities and in historical ages. If Indians are sad about happenings of pre historical ages, no one can do anything. Your argument is childish. So if a man makes right assertion that Africans did not know writing, that african should say , " you want to tell me that we africans were stupid".

That saying by some Chinese is true. A single picture showing a man with another girl is able to convince his wife of him being untruthful.

 

[Pratap]

Look who is talking...

I am certainly not one who says, " History is not fact finding commission, it is what I believe in ".

 

[Pratap]

@Bhadra

It has been refuted time and again.

In Hindu nationalist circles only who can not read even basic Sanskrit.

The imaginary theory is just based on some linguistic similarity.

Descendants of Rajputs are now taking beef and descendants of Panini are rejecting linguistics. We are living in bad age.

It has been proved on linguistics basis that the original language is Sanskrit and not some Gypsy dialect.

Pure lie .Original language was PIE not Sanskrit. Skt is grandson of PIE.

When language travels, it gets modified. Maximum modification are out side rather than in Sanskrit itself

What about Prakrits?

There are far too many arguments to prove that Aryans did not migrate from outside and from their literature it can not be established

Not from Rigveda but by linguistics and genetics.

Migrants always carry their collective memories down the generations in their rituals and motifs. It is so evident from those who migrated form Pakistan or East Bengal . It is also evident in some of the Anglo Indian and Pathan familes cultures. Some of their culture and traditions would be carried down to the generation and shall remain part of their collective consciousness.

Again do not get confused by what happened in bronze age with modern age. We can tell what is sex ratio in 1900 Bihar, can we say same for bronze age? Chariots, horses and fire rituals do tell that aryas moved from outside subcontinent.

Unless you want to prove that "Savitri" of Vedas is actually a goddess of Iranians and Soma and Varuna were Turkish Gods

All these are Indo Aryan gods and only Indo Aryans. Strawman argument by you.

By your theory of being "fair" like khatries of Punjab, you are bound to declare all fair Pathans like Khans pure Aryans and Hindu forefathers.

Do not be dishonest. When did I use term " fair"? I talked about high frequency of R1a1a among Khatris.
Muslims with west asian background ave nothing to do with Aryas. However, of all muslims, Pashtuns are closest to Hindus( even dalits of Tamil Nadu) and are remnants of Aryas of Gandhara who were brutally forced to adopt Iranian language along with Islam.

 

[Pratap]

These are women from " Madra Janapad" and though now do not follow Aryan culture and rituals and can not be called Arya women, they certainly resemble Vedic age women biologically. Original Indo Aryan women looked like these

 

[Bhadra]

I am certainly not one who says, " History is not fact finding commission, it is what I believe in ".

Yes, I do mention that ..... provided you or historian is able to decide what is fact..

and that perception and idea of what is fact depends on todays understanding and not what was yesterday or what will be there tomorrow ?? Ah..



Where are the facts that Aryans are foreigners in Indian subcontinent... facts not conjectures like you put forward..

Still you teach us history..... Is not that strange... ?????

let us not be polemical.. but logical...


Except linguistics, IN IMAGINARY AND POLEMICAL FORM, there are no evidences for AIT...

All other evidences are against it ... now, OF LATE, including dynamics of linguistics....

You seem to someone looking for some lost cause... like proving yourself to be an Angrej , does not matter...

At least Rajput were always pure Aryans of Indian origin... doing their duty to protect Gow, Brahmins. purohita - rasthra and dharma.... so were Jats, Ahirs, or Gujjars... Khalsas or Khatries, Nambiyars, Nairs, Naidus, or Periyars... Chamars, Domas or SC / STetc Parihars, Chalukyas or or or so ... the list is endless..

Was it the distinction of social inequality.. economic status rather than differences in genetics..... ??

Let genetics then decide ... I shall marry a Dalit... fifth time.. but may not be an Arab as the progeny would take my name..

though people have always presented and devised tools to falsify the truth... and reality...
It has almost decided....

All are my Aryan brothers ... including ....... myself..

 

[Pratap]

@Bhadra

Yes, I do mention that ..... provided you or historian is able to decide what is fact..

and that perception and idea of what is fact depends on todays understanding and not what was yesterday or what will be there tomorrow ?? Ah..

The AIT has been a solid theory for last 200 years and now genetics has almost proven it. I have posted links and diagrams and those are facts.

Where are the facts that Aryans are foreigners in Indian subcontinent... facts not conjectures like you put forward..

Aryans are not foreigners. This is your and other Indians' stupidity. A people do not become foreigner just because they were not living in some place since big bang. The theory is that Indo Aryan languages came with some nomads who due to mastering of wheel technology could subjugate entire world from Bengal to Sweden. Cyrus was not a foreigner in Iran even though his case is identical with Indian aryans.
Genetics and linguistics are facts.

You seem to someone looking for some lost cause... like proving yourself to be an Angrej , does not matter...

Where did I say that? Typical Indian thinking. You need to understand the difference between origin and present status. I might have genes from aryan invaders just as all Indians have to some extent, but I certainly do not look white, do not follow white culture and do not speak Russian or Polish.

At least Rajput were always pure Aryans of Indian origin... doing their duty to protect Gow, Brahmins. purohita - rasthra and dharma.... so were Jats, Ahirs, or Gujjars... Khalsas or Khatries, Nambiyars, Nairs, Naidus, or Periyars... Chamars, Domas or SC / STetc Parihars, Chalukyas or or or so ... the list is endless..

Domas are closer to Indians who lived before Aryan invasion than other groups you mentioned.

Was it the distinction of social inequality.. economic status rather than differences in genetics..... ??

The dominant groups in any society are those who are able to have power and wealth. The people who mated with aryas got an edge due to chariots and horse warfare and thus could establish themselves at apex position in caste hierarchy. It was not based on genetics rather a people who got war technology from aryas which was possible by coming into close contact with Aryas, were able to dominate others. Just as mestizos are dominant rather than natives in Mexico .

though people have always presented and devised tools to falsify the truth... and reality...
It has almost decided....

Ofcourse and this applies to internet hindu revisionists.

All are my Aryan brothers ... including ....... myself.

True.

Let genetics then decide ... I shall marry a Dalit... fifth time.. but may not be an Arab as the progeny would take my name..

What is meaning of this ?

 

[Pratap]

For those who are having problems to understand the theory, here is a flowchart that shows relationship between different Indo European languages. As you can see there is common ancestor and rest are its descendants.

Independent branches with separate common cultures and religions thus are Iranic, Indic, Hellenic, Slavic, Italic and Germanic.

Indians are speakers of Indic and they alone so no foreigner or anything. If a thing is unique to you, it is yours . As simple as that.

 

[PredictablyMalicious]

@Pratap I think differences between groups are often exaggerated in South Asia. There seems a clear divide between North and South Indians, and "mainland Indians" vs North east Indians but that's about it. Pashtuns are an Iranic people but they look very South Asian to me. Sri Lankans are indistinguishable from South Indians, Bangladeshis are indistinguishable from Bengalis, and North Indians are indistinguishable from Pakistanis (Pakjabis, sindhis, muhajirs, mirpuris and other indic groups). Maybe Pashtuns are more west asian looking and baloch also sport a slightly more west asian appearance.

 

[Bhadra]

self deleted

 

[Bhadra]

@Pratap I think differences between groups are often exaggerated in South Asia. There seems a clear divide between North and South Indians, and "mainland Indians" vs North east Indians but that's about it. Pashtuns are an Iranic people but they look very South Asian to me. Sri Lankans are indistinguishable from South Indians, Bangladeshis are indistinguishable from Bengalis, and North Indians are indistinguishable from Pakistanis (Pakjabis, sindhis, muhajirs, mirpuris and other indic groups). Maybe Pashtuns are more west asian looking and baloch also sport a slightly more west asian appearance.

your Chart seems to be originating from this :

The Hiraṇyagarbha Sūkta of the Ṛkveda declares that God manifested Himself in the beginning as the Creator of the Universe, encompassing all things, including everything within Himself, the collective totality, as it were, of the whole of creation, animating it as the Supreme Intelligence.

हिरण्यगर्भः समवर्तताग्रे भूतस्य जातः पतिरेकासीत ।
स दाधार पृथ्वीं ध्यामुतेमां कस्मै देवायहविषा विधेम ॥
य आत्मदा बलदा यस्य विश्व उपासते प्रशिषं यस्यदेवाः ।
यस्य छायामृतं यस्य मर्त्युः कस्मै देवायहविषा विधेम ॥
यः प्राणतो निमिषतो महित्वैक इद्राजा जगतो बभूव ।
य ईशे अस्य द्विपदश्चतुष्पदः कस्मै देवाय हविषाविधेम ॥
यस्येमे हिमवन्तो महित्वा यस्य समुद्रं रसया सहाहुः ।
यस्येमाः परदिशो यस्य बाहू कस्मै देवाय हविषाविधेम ॥
येन दयौरुग्रा पर्थिवी च दर्ळ्हा येन सव सतभितं येननाकः ।
यो अन्तरिक्षे रजसो विमानः कस्मै देवायहविषा विधेम ॥
यं करन्दसी अवसा तस्तभाने अभ्यैक्षेतां मनसारेजमाने ।
यत्राधि सूर उदितो विभाति कस्मै देवायहविषा विधेम ॥
आपो ह यद बर्हतीर्विश्वमायन गर्भं दधानाजनयन्तीरग्निम ।
ततो देवानां समवर्ततासुरेकःकस्मै देवाय हविषा विधेम ॥
यश्चिदापो महिना पर्यपश्यद दक्षं दधानाजनयन्तीर्यज्ञम ।
यो देवेष्वधि देव एक आसीत कस्मैदेवाय हविषा विधेम ॥
मा नो हिंसीज्जनिता यः पर्थिव्या यो वा दिवंसत्यधर्मा जजान ।
यश्चापश्चन्द्रा बर्हतीर्जजानकस्मै देवाय हविषा विधेम ॥
परजापते न तवदेतान्यन्यो विश्वा जातानि परि ताबभूव ।
यत्कामास्ते जुहुमस्तन नो अस्तु वयं सयाम पतयोरयीणाम ॥

 

[Pratap]

@Pratap I think differences between groups are often exaggerated in South Asia. There seems a clear divide between North and South Indians, and "mainland Indians" vs North east Indians but that's about it. Pashtuns are an Iranic people but they look very South Asian to me. Sri Lankans are indistinguishable from South Indians, Bangladeshis are indistinguishable from Bengalis, and North Indians are indistinguishable from Pakistanis (Pakjabis, sindhis, muhajirs, mirpuris and other indic groups). Maybe Pashtuns are more west asian looking and baloch also sport a slightly more west asian appearance.

Pashtuns are very diverse with some like Kadar Khan looking like ordinary Biharis whereas Zarin Khan is almost European in her looks. You will have to trust me that Pashtuns are nothing( i am talking in biological terms) but mix of Hindkos of Gandhara and invading Iranians of Scythian group.( Pashtuns are eastern Iranian unlike west Iranians like baloch or persians ). Do not be misled by looks, genetically, Pashtuns are quite related to dalits of TN ( ASI is as high as 20-30 percent among Pashtuns)

North east Indians are mongoloid so no question about that. Haplogroup O which is pan east asian occurs high among them.

The idea that North Indians are indistinguishable from Pakistanis is quite nonsense( genetically high castes and normal Pakistanis are related). If by north India, you mean JK, Punjab , then may be you are right but people of Rajasthan, UP and Bihar are certainly distinguishable from Pakistanis.
This is not surprising as barring some groups, Pakistanis do not have more than 35-40 percent of ASI unlike north Indians who have it as high as 60 per cent.

When Aryan invasion occured, the nearest area was Gandhara and so it is logical that Pakistanis would be closest to vedic aryas rather than ordinary Bengalis or Keralites.
Also, there is no uniform looks in any area. A Jat Pakistani would be closer to some Iyengar brahmin in looks than his own Dalit musalman from Lahore.


Bangladeshis are not indistinguishable from West Bengalis. A man with surname Sen and Roy will certainly look different from ordinary Bangladeshi. Saurav Ganguli looks closer to Kashmiri brahmin Suresh Raina rather than Bangladeshi cricket players.

 

[PredictablyMalicious]

Pashtuns are very diverse with some like Kadar Khan looking like ordinary Biharis whereas Zarin Khan is almost European in her looks. You will have to trust me that Pashtuns are nothing( i am talking in biological terms) but mix of Hindkos of Gandhara and invading Iranians of Scythian group.( Pashtuns are eastern Iranian unlike west Iranians like baloch or persians ). Do not be misled by looks, genetically, Pashtuns are quite related to dalits of TN ( ASI is as high as 20-30 percent among Pashtuns)

North east Indians are mongoloid so no question about that. Haplogroup O which is pan east asian occurs high among them.

The idea that North Indians are indistinguishable from Pakistanis is quite nonsense( genetically high castes and normal Pakistanis are related). If by north India, you mean JK, Punjab , then may be you are right but people of Rajasthan, UP and Bihar are certainly distinguishable from Pakistanis.
This is not surprising as barring some groups, Pakistanis do not have more than 35-40 percent of ASI unlike north Indians who have it as high as 60 per cent.

When Aryan invasion occured, the nearest area was Gandhara and so it is logical that Pakistanis would be closest to vedic aryas rather than ordinary Bengalis or Keralites.
Also, there is no uniform looks in any area. A Jat Pakistani would be closer to some Iyengar brahmin in looks than his own Dalit musalman from Lahore.


Bangladeshis are not indistinguishable from West Bengalis. A man with surname Sen and Roy will certainly look different from ordinary Bangladeshi. Saurav Ganguli looks closer to Kashmiri brahmin Suresh Raina rather than Bangladeshi cricket players.

You are just a typical south asian who likes to exaggerate differences. I have seen so many Pakistanis and Canada and they are quite indistinguishable from Indians mostly. Never seen a Pakistani who was lighter than me. People in J&K look like Pakistanis? Ha ha, so we look like Muhajirs or Sindhis or even Punjabis? People from J&K and Himachal are on average, lighter than "normal" Pakistanis. Also you are overplaying the correlation between caste and appearance. Low caste North indians look fairer than high caste south indians on average.