Aryan Invasion Hypothesis

[bennedose]

This study suggests that the R1a* gene originated among Brahmins in India ruling out the idea that the genes came in from Europe or elsewhere.

The Indian origin of paternal haplogroup R1a1* substantiates the autochthonous origin of Brahmins and the caste system
Swarkar Sharma et al
Journal of Human Genetics (2009) 54, 47–55

Conclusions

The observation of R1a* in high frequency for the first time in the

literature, as well as analyses using different phylogenetic methods,

resolved the controversy of the origin of R1a1*, supporting its origin

in the Indian subcontinent. Simultaneously, the presence of R1a1* in

very high frequency in Brahmins, irrespective of linguistic and geo-
graphic affiliations, suggested it as the founder haplogroup for the

population. The co-presence of this haplogroup in many of the tribal

populations of India, its existence in high frequency in Saharia

(present study) and Chenchu tribes, the high frequency of R1a* in

Kashmiri Pandits (KPs—Brahmins) as well as Saharia (tribe) and

associated phylogenetic ages supported the autochthonous origin and

tribal links of Indian Brahmins, confronting the concepts of recent

Central Asian introduction and rank-related Eurasian contribution of

the Indian caste system.

 

[bennedose]

More genetic evidence that goes against the Aryan Invasion theory

The Genetic Heritage of the Earliest Settlers Persists Both in Indian Tribal and Caste Populations
T. Kivisild et al
Am. J. Hum. Genet. 72:313–332, 2003

Haplogroup R1a, previously associated with the putative Indo-Aryan invasion, was found

at its highest frequency in Punjab but also at a relatively high frequency (26%) in the Chenchu tribe. This finding,

together with the higher R1a-associated short tandem repeat diversity in India and Iran compared with Europe

and central Asia, suggests that southern and western Asia might be the source of this haplogroup. Haplotype

frequencies of the MX1 locus of chromosome 21 distinguish Koyas and Chenchus, along with Indian caste groups,

from European and eastern Asian populations. Taken together, these results show that Indian tribal and caste

populations derive largely from the same genetic heritage of Pleistocene southern and western Asians and have

received limited gene flow from external regions since the Holocene.

Note that "Holocene" started 12,000 years ago so there has been no such invasion in the last 12,000 years according to this paper.

 

[bennedose]

Another paper showing no Aryan Invasion at since the mid-Holocene era
Underhill et al
European Journal of Human Genetics (2010) 18, 479–484

Although the R1a1a* frequency and diversity is highest among Indo-Aryan and Dravidian speakers, the subhaplogroup R1a1a7-M458 frequency peaks among Slavic and Finno-Ugric peoples. Although this distinction by geography is not directly informative about the internal divisions of these separate language families, it might bear some significance for assessing dispersal models that have been proposed to explain the
spread of Indo-Aryan languages in South Asia as it would exclude any significant patrilineal gene flow from East Europe to Asia, at least since
the mid-Holocene period.

 

[bennedose]

What I could understand from this, the ANI does have European genes in them however those are not Aryan.The new research maybe correct ,only time will tell.To me AIT/AMT may be correct.It maybe incorrect too.I don`t care.
However I just cannot believe the OIT that is spread by some people.It really is unbelievable.

AIT being false DOES NOT MEAN that OIT is true.

 

[Peter]

AIT being false DOES NOT MEAN that OIT is true.

Yes, but some posters say OIT has validity.I mean I have already said that people like the Roma(Dom people of India) did migrate to Europe but OIT in its original sense makes no sense.Also thanks for sharing that post.It was written in a simple manner .

 

[bennedose]

One more genetics paper showing that AIT is false

Shared and Unique Components of Human Population Structure and Genome-Wide Signals of Positive Selection in South Asia
Metspalu et al
The American Journal of Human Genetics 89, 731–744, December 9, 2011

Thus, regardless of where this component was from (the Caucasus, Near East, Indus Valley, or Central Asia), its spread to other regions must have occurred well before our detection limits at 12,500 years. Accordingly, the intro-duction of k5 to South Asia cannot be explained by recent gene flow, such as the hypothetical Indo-Aryan migration.

 

[bennedose]

What I could understand from this, the ANI does have European genes in them however those are not Aryan.

No. There is not much European there, Aryan or not. Here is yet another paper that says that

Genetic Evidence for Recent Population Mixture in India
Priya Moorjani et al


The American Journal of Human Genetics 93, 422–438, September 5, 2013

Although we have documented evidence for
mixture in India between about 1,900 and 4,200 years
BP, this does not imply migration from West Eurasia into
India during this time. On the contrary, a recent study
that searched for West Eurasian groups most closely related
to the ANI ancestors of Indians failed to find any evidence
for shared ancestry between the ANI and groups in West
Eurasia within the past 12,500 years

This same paper talks of 3 waves of migrations into India starting 30.000 years ago

Although genetic studies and other lines of evidence are
consistent in pointing to mixture of distinct groups in In-
dian history, the dates are unknown. Three different hy-
potheses (which are not mutually exclusive) seem most
plausible for migrations that could have brought together
people of ANI and ASI ancestry in India. The first hypoth-
esis is that the current geographic distribution of people
with West Eurasian genetic affinities is due to migrations
that occurred prior to the development of agriculture. Evi-
dence for this comes from mitochondrial DNA studies,
which have shown that the mitochondrial haplogroups
(hg U2, U7, and W) that are most closely shared between
Indians and West Eurasians diverged about 30,000–
40,000 years BP.3,14 The second is that Western Asian peo-
ples migrated to India along with the spread of agriculture;
such mass movements are plausible because they are
known to have occurred in Europe as has been directly
documented by ancient DNA.15,16 Any such agriculture-
related migrations would probably have begun at least
8,000–9,000 years BP (based on the dates for Mehrgarh)
and may have continued into the period of the Indus civi-
lization that began around 4,600 years BP and depended
upon West Asian crops.17 The third possibility is that
West Eurasian genetic affinities in India owe their origins
to migrations from Western or Central Asia from 3,000 to
4,000 years BP, a time during which it is likely that Indo-
European languages began to be spoken in the subconti-
nent. A difficulty with this theory, however, is that by
this time India was a densely populated region with wide-
spread agriculture, so the number of migrants of West
Eurasian ancestry must have been extraordinarily large to
explain the fact that today about half the ancestry in India
derives from the ANI.18,19 It is also important to recognize
that a date of mixture is very different from the date of a
migration; in particular, mixture always postdates migra-
tion. Nevertheless, a genetic date for the mixture would
place a minimum on the date of migration and identify
periods of important demographic change in India.

 

[bennedose]

I will side by linguists and genetic scientists rather than bank employees.

Please read the genetics papers I have linked.

 

[Peter]

No. There is not much European there, Aryan or not. Here is yet another paper that says that

Genetic Evidence for Recent Population Mixture in India
Priya Moorjani et al


The American Journal of Human Genetics 93, 422–438, September 5, 2013


This same paper talks of 3 waves of migrations into India starting 30.000 years ago

But one of the three possibilities does say that there might have been migrations of Eurasian people(ANI).Can you explain a bit more.

 

[bennedose]

Yes, but some posters say OIT has validity.I mean I have already said that people like the Roma(Dom people of India) did migrate to Europe but OIT in its original sense makes no sense.Also thanks for sharing that post.It was written in a simple manner .

Peter there is some speculative stuff that could indiicate out of India - maybe I will post some of what I know later. But there is no "scientific proof" as can be accepted as a peer reviwed publication.

I personally feel that there were big links between West Asia and India especially during the last ice age (more than 12,000 years ago) when sea levels were low. The water off the Gujarat, Pakistan and Persian gulf is very shallow and there may have been land routes where there is water now. Maybe Dwaraka was above water then (this is speculation). But in that era, Europe was iced up and depopulated. Much mixing of language, genes and culture must have taken place way back then - with later re migration to Europe. This is simply my own speculation. The shathapatha brahmana has astronomic dates going back 6 or 8,000 years (can't remember exactly - will check). The Rig Veda is untranslatable and anyone who says he has translated the Rig Veda is in my view talking nonsense. But that is off topic.

 

[Peter]

Peter there is some speculative stuff that could indiicate out of India - maybe I will post some of what I know later. But there is no "scientific proof" as can be accepted as a peer reviwed publication.

I personally feel that there were big links between West Asia and India especially during the last ice age (more than 12,000 years ago) when sea levels were low. The water off the Gujarat, Pakistan and Persian gulf is very shallow and there may have been land routes where there is water now. Maybe Dwaraka was above water then (this is speculation). But in that era, Europe was iced up and depopulated. Much mixing of language, genes and culture must have taken place way back then - with later re migration to Europe. This is simply my own speculation. The shathapatha brahmana has astronomic dates going back 6 or 8,000 years (can't remember exactly - will check). The Rig Veda is untranslatable and anyone who says he has translated the Rig Veda is in my view talking nonsense. But that is off topic.

Agreed.I had actually started my comment on this thread with the post that unless we develop a time machine we will never know what happened in the past.Till then we will continue to wonder about the mysteries of history.

 

[bennedose]

But one of the three possibilities does say that there might have been migrations of Eurasian people(ANI).Can you explain a bit more.

Not really. Priya Moorjani says that the most recent ones are the least likely because the thorough mixing of ANI and ASI among all Indians could not have occurred so recently because populations were already very large.

There is one paper that once again documents the presence of Ancestral South Indian and North Indian genes in all Indians, north or south. But there is a recent Eurasian admixture in the northwest probably because of migrations that are documented in history. It is not there there is NO mixture from the west. it is just that Indians (also Pakis and some Afghans) have a very unique mixture of very old genes localized to the subcontinent. There is no mixture of genes that supports AIT. AIT is a very specific theory that puts a date of about 1500 - 1000 BC for Rig Veda and that "Aryans" came to India at that time. There is no evidence of genetic inflow into India corresponding to that period.

I also believe that the Rig Veda date is fake - but that again is another topic.

 

[shinoj]

Yes, but some posters say OIT has validity.I mean I have already said that people like the Roma(Dom people of India) did migrate to Europe but OIT in its original sense makes no sense.Also thanks for sharing that post.It was written in a simple manner .

Romani or roma people were dancers of the Somnath temple and of western Rajasthan region

When ghazni looted temples of western India, he took them as war booty but somehow they managed to escape to europe, its a heart touching story of them

they are a very nice bunch of people

Cruelty fate plays on you

 

[Peter]

Not really. Priya Moorjani says that the most recent ones are the least likely because the thorough mixing of ANI and ASI among all Indians could not have occurred so recently because populations were already very large.

There is one paper that once again documents the presence of Ancestral South Indian and North Indian genes in all Indians, north or south. But there is a recent Eurasian admixture in the northwest probably because of migrations that are documented in history. It is not there there is NO mixture from the west. it is just that Indians (also Pakis and some Afghans) have a very unique mixture of very old genes localized to the subcontinent. There is no mixture of genes that supports AIT. AIT is a very specific theory that puts a date of about 1500 - 1000 BC for Rig Veda and that "Aryans" came to India at that time. There is no evidence of genetic inflow into India corresponding to that period.

I also believe that the Rig Veda date is fake - but that again is another topic.

Yes I think the Human Genome Project that is being conducted will solve most of the cases.Also it will be nice if some of our own Indian researches make more genetic studies in this field.Maybe in 20-25 years every question about our origin will be solved as technology will improve.

 

[shinoj]

Not really. Priya Moorjani says that the most recent ones are the least likely because the thorough mixing of ANI and ASI among all Indians could not have occurred so recently because populations were already very large.

There is one paper that once again documents the presence of Ancestral South Indian and North Indian genes in all Indians, north or south. But there is a recent Eurasian admixture in the northwest probably because of migrations that are documented in history. It is not there there is NO mixture from the west. it is just that Indians (also Pakis and some Afghans) have a very unique mixture of very old genes localized to the subcontinent. There is no mixture of genes that supports AIT. AIT is a very specific theory that puts a date of about 1500 - 1000 BC for Rig Veda and that "Aryans" came to India at that time. There is no evidence of genetic inflow into India corresponding to that period.

I also believe that the Rig Veda date is fake - but that again is another topic.

Rig Veda happened much much before than 1000 1500 B.C. And most date western historians cite are fake, rig veda happened at around 5000 6000 B.C., not sure about the date but much much before than what is cited

 

[Peter]

Romani or roma people were dancers of the Somnath temple and of western Rajasthan region

When ghazni looted temples of western India, he took them as war booty but somehow they managed to escape to europe, its a heart touching story of them

they are a very nice bunch of people

Cruelty fate plays on you

Well their origins are doubted.The recent studies show that their genes show a similarity to Dalit populations of India(the Doms).Yet another study said they could have Jat ancestry.Whatever their ancestry they have been wrongly persecuted in Europe for many centuries.Now their condition is improving.Incidentally Charlie Chaplin had gypsy heritage.

 

[shinoj]

Well their origins are doubted.The recent studies show that their genes show a similarity to Dalit populations of India(the Doms).Yet another study said they could have Jat ancestry.Whatever their ancestry they have been wrongly persecuted in Europe for many centuries.Now their condition is improving.Incidentally Charlie Chaplin had gypsy heritage.

Dancers were not regarded as high caste

 

[Peter]

Dancers were not regarded as high caste

Actually I was not talking of their caste but their persecution at the hands of the so called superior white race.I did not know that superior people kill people due to their genetics.But lets not get OT about crimes of others on us Indians.

 

[shinoj]

Actually I was not talking of their caste but their persecution at the hands of the so called superior white race.I did not know that superior people kill people due to their genetics.But lets not get OT about crimes of others on us Indians.

I hate the way white guys act against negroes jews and almost all other races and then accuse us of caste system

 

[Pratap]

@Pratap, you said that Stephen Knapp is one of those unbiased, Western historians who refute OIT. Please elaborate.

Where did I say that Sir? A quote of mine will be appreciated. After many hours( got an electric shock today), I am visiting this thread so I could not have edited any of that.

Sir, that is the problem. Who cares for Stephen Knapp? Do you know who he is? He is just a whiteman who has no professional qualification in any of our fields( archaeology, history, genetics or linguistics) and he is a convert to ISKON variety of Vaishnavism. Same with David Frawley.
I am not saying that they are charlatans, only that they do not have even basic competence in fields necessary to debate AIT or OIT .

I talked about Koenrad Elst who supports( with some doubt ) OIT but who is displeased with Hindus for shouting "AIT is dead". Sir, one needs to understand that no theory can be dead unless rest of world accepts the flaws of that theory. Making noise within a tribal confederacy makes no sense.
There are large numbers of blacks in USA who have started claiming that Alexander was a black and his statues were "fabricated" by whites and such crap. Clyde Winters, their hero claims Angkor Vat as black heritage. They also shout this all time but whole world outside their own confederacy laughs at them.

The fact of matter is that there are tens of thousands of linguists who have devoted their life to this problem and barring Kazanas, a Grek origin professor of Sanskrit, not one subscribes to OIT. One can say that this is grand conspiracy by whites to steal Indian history but even you know that it is not an argument.

In our country alone, before Nehruvian " courtier historians" took over in 60s, there were great historians like HC Rayachaudhari and RC Majumdar( Majumdar was head of historical branch of UNESCO and his books on SE Asia were first to be written by an asian on the region) and today, the nehruvians like Aditya Mukherjee call them "communalist historians" and these historians too supported AIT. Were they also conspiring against us?

Kurgan hypothesis is no conspiracy, if our friends want to oppose it , it is fine, but to say that it is due to conspiracy is outright demeaning to many scholars who are concerned more with truth.
Iranians, Germans, British also accept that PIE developed in Pontic steppes that is in Russia and Ukraine. Why they are not locating it in their own homeland? Just to keep dark Indians feel inferior? This is one of the grandest conspiracy theories.