Arjun vs T90 MBT

[Decklander]

@Damian,
The IA is the biggest licker of russians. The modifications that they have asked for in Arjun MK2 are way above what is available even in T-90SM. The truth is that they get bribes from russians for ordering more T-90 tanks while DRDO does not pay bribes. Please compare the specs and modifications of Arjun MK2 and compare it with T-90SM, you will know what I am talking here. AND stop hiding behind the argument that I do not know. You are running away from debate. You have not been able to answer any of my questions till now.
The gulf war tank battle range was quoted by me and not by you.
You talked about my lack of knowledge of tank designs. Its you who can't make out his elbow from his------ You talked of side protection between Arjun and T-90. can you please tell me how a proud shoulder of a Tank turret design affects the side protection of turret? Why do designers go for a wider front for turret compared with its rear?
let me see your knowledge here. You had posted those figures here with arcs. Didn't you?

 

[Decklander]

Russians can sell their shit to IA and our generals will lap it up as PRASAAD from Gods. Thats what is the standard of our Generals.

 

[Iamanidiot]

@Decklander sir I thought the defence secretary is Incharge of procurement

 

[Damian]

The gulf war tank battle range was quoted by me and not by you.

Battle ranges depends on terrain, as Methos said, but the standard in NATO is to fire conventional ammunition not further than 4,000m.

The IA is the biggest a**licker of russians. The modifications that they have asked for in Arjun MK2 are way above what is available even in T-90SM. The truth is that they get bribes from russians for ordering more T-90 tanks while DRDO does not pay bribes.

This is very convieniant, accuse of bribes only one said, second side can also pay bribes, but smaller.

Or what if Russians do not pay bribes? What then?

Please compare the specs and modifications of Arjun MK2 and compare it with T-90SM, you will know what I am talking here.

So show me Arjun Mk2 in it's final configuration, up to this day, there is no photo and final specification for Arjun Mk2.

AND stop hiding behind the argument that I do not know. You are running away from debate. You have not been able to answer any of my questions till now.

I am not hiding, you simply do not know. Please stick to you silly ships, tanks are beyond your knowledge.

You talked about my lack of knowledge of tank designs. Its you who can't make out his elbow from his a**. You talked of side protection between Arjun and T-90. can you please tell me how a proud shoulder of a Tank turret design affects the side protection of turret? Why do designers go for a wider front for turret compared with its rear?
let me see your knowledge here. You had posted those figures here with arcs. Didn't you?

Turret geometry is dependant on so called "safe manouvering angles". Safe manouvering angles means a 60 degrees frontal arc of protection, which means that turret needs to be designed to provide excellent protection within this arc.

This was achieved two ways. Soviet (Russians/Ukrainians) designed a turret that have a side armor inclined in such a way that within these 60 degrees, side armor is hidden behind frontal armor. This was done such way, because demand of Soviet armed forces was a weight belowe 50 metric tons for MBT's.

In NATO it was achieved different way, because turrets are big and blocky, turret sides are made from very thick composite armor (300-400mm thick).

Arjun use the western style turret geometry, but the composite armor placement is based on Soviet designs, which means that protection is insufficent, it was explained many times.



Western design philosophy.



Arjun and T-90A/S, as you can see both have very thin turret sides armor, and composite armor placed only at front, however in case of T-90S, the weak side armor is hidden behind frontal armor within the 60 degrees frontal arc.

 

[Decklander]

NOOOO. IA raises QRs and they tweek them at tender stage itself to favour a particular product. have you not seen it in the case of TATRA deal? After the tendering, the shortlisted equipment undergoes trials. Again IA does it and favours the equipment which they already have in their mind. The instructions to tweek the tender and trials come from MOD with IA generals being active participants. have you ever seen DRDO guys being part of any weapon trials in India? They are the guys who know the designing and the real truth.
After the shortlisted equipment list is sent to MOD, The Def Sec gets into picture and they play all the game to make it one sided. Did you not hear as to how MMRCA files were found in dustbins and how Rafale was rejected in tech evalution itself and than made a re entry to emerge L-1. Even before Bofors gun was tried by IA, The bribes had been paid. How did it all happen?
I have seen a very ugly side of armed forces while in Navy on deputation to IAF and my own elder Brother was a decorated Col. of IA originally from 10th Dogra and than to Army Aviation. he took part in Op Blue star and was called Tees maar khan of his pultun. he died last year of blood cancer.

 

[Iamanidiot]

Sir a humble suggestion this info should not be in the civvie domain.

 

[Decklander]

Battle ranges depends on terrain, as Methos said, but the standard in NATO is to fire conventional ammunition not further than 4,000m.



This is very convieniant, accuse of bribes only one said, second side can also pay bribes, but smaller.

Or what if Russians do not pay bribes? What then?



So show me Arjun Mk2 in it's final configuration, up to this day, there is no photo and final specification for Arjun Mk2.



I am not hiding, you simply do not know. Please stick to you silly ships, tanks are beyond your knowledge.



Turret geometry is dependant on so called "safe manouvering angles". Safe manouvering angles means a 60 degrees frontal arc of protection, which means that turret needs to be designed to provide excellent protection within this arc.

This was achieved two ways. Soviet (Russians/Ukrainians) designed a turret that have a side armor inclined in such a way that within these 60 degrees, side armor is hidden behind frontal armor. This was done such way, because demand of Soviet armed forces was a weight belowe 50 metric tons for MBT's.

In NATO it was achieved different way, because turrets are big and blocky, turret sides are made from very thick composite armor (300-400mm thick).

Arjun use the western style turret geometry, but the composite armor placement is based on Soviet designs, which means that protection is insufficent, it was explained many times.



Western design philosophy.



Arjun and T-90A/S, as you can see both have very thin turret sides armor, and composite armor placed only at front, however in case of T-90S, the weak side armor is hidden behind frontal armor within the 60 degrees frontal arc.

Thats what I wanted you to post here. The protrusion of Turret to the sides of Arjun help to protect its sides. recalculate your angles. The T-90 has minimal protection compared with Arjun on sides. It was our very own DRDO which helped russians improve their tank designs in terms of crew protection and survivability. The Russian doctrine was still based on their WW2 tactics of numbers with scant regard for crew protection. Pls do a bit of research and you will know that when Arjun was being developed, the russians learnt a lot from DRDO.
Regarding that there is no Arjun MK2, please be informed that Mk2 has been ready for over six months but IA has been dragging its feet for a comparative trial between T-90SM and Mk2. They will do it after the visit of Putin when the deal for additional T-90SM has been signed.
BTW do you know that russian tanks can fire only russian rounds and not Indian or anyother ammo? But do you know that by just few commands of a computer on Arjun you can fire any ammo from any source as the ballastics of that ammo are fed into its system and the FCS modified on the move to fire any such ammo?
We have still not talked of netcentric capabilities as that is non existant in russian equipment while Arjun is fully wired for netcentric warfare. Hope you know netcentric warfare and how it effects the modern battle when you get data from multiple sources like foot infantry, other tanks, scouts, UAVs, Aircraft, AWAcs, satellites etc..

 

[Apollyon]

After the shortlisted equipment list is sent to MOD, The Def Sec gets into picture and they play all the game to make it one sided. Did you not hear as to how MMRCA files were found in dustbins and how Rafale was rejected in tech evalution itself and than made a re entry to emerge L-1. Even before Bofors gun was tried by IA, The bribes had been paid. How did it all happen?

....

You mean Rafale was rejected in the evaluation phase only and is not the best choice, EuroFighter or F-18 is ) ?

 

[Damian]

The protrusion of Turret to the sides of Arjun help to protect its sides.

No they can't, at +/- 30 degrees for each of the sides, crew compartment is vurnable as well as turret bustle where turret drives, FCS components and ammunition are placed.

The T-90 has minimal protection compared with Arjun on sides. It was our very own DRDO which helped russians improve their tank designs in terms of crew protection and survivability. The Russian doctrine was still based on their WW2 tactics of numbers with scant regard for crew protection. Pls do a bit of research and you will know that when Arjun was being developed, the russians learnt a lot from DRDO.

I remind you that Russians developed ERA like the west did some time ago after WWII, while ERA was integrated in to design finally in 1980's. In second half of 1980's Russians developed universal ERA, also in the late 1980's and early 1990's it was then designed a new welded turret for Object 187, tank that was never intended for India. Later instead of Object 188 also known as T-90, was developed Object 188A1 known as T-90A with welded turret, also used on T-90S used by IA.

Russians never used, and never needed help from DRDO, that in tank designing is years behind UKBTM, OKBTM, KMDB, NII Stali and their western counterparts like Krauss Maffei Wegmann, NEXTER, BAe or GDLS.

Besides this during WWII Soviets were the ones that were designing one of the best protected tanks, and I am not talking here for a famous but failed T-34 series, but such designs as T-44, IS-1, IS-2 and IS-3 as well as later tanks that evolved from them.

BTW do you know that russian tanks can fire only russian rounds and not Indian or anyother ammo? But do you know that by just few commands of a computer on Arjun you can fire any ammo from any source as the ballastics of that ammo are fed into its system and the FCS modified on the move to fire any such ammo?

In any tank, FCS needs ballistic data for ammunition, so you need to load that data in to FCS memory, the case is that not every producer will provide you codes for the software. And no, Arjun can't fire any ammo from any source, because nobody besides India is manufacturing a 120mm ammunition for rifled guns. UK stopped doing this few years ago, and besides this, their ammunition is 3 piece, not single piece like that used in Arjun, so it is not compatibile.

We have still not talked of netcentric capabilities as that is non existant in russian equipment while Arjun is fully wired for netcentric warfare. Hope you know the meaning and spellings of netcentric warfare and how it effects the modern battle when you get data from multiple sources like foot infantry, other tanks, scouts, UAVs, Aircraft, AWAcs, satellites etc.

Battle Management Systems can be installed in any tank. You think that NATO tanks when they were designed had BMS's? No, these systems were installed first in 1990's without any significant modifications to vehicle basic structure.

 

[Decklander]

I do not shoot from the hip
Rafale ejection from MMRCA race confirmed | StratPost
India rejects Dassault's Rafale MMRCA bid
Livefist: Indian Politician Says Sonia Gandhi Has Rigged M-MRCA Deal for Rafale
Indian Rafale Out, MMRCA Trials by August ~ ASIAN DEFENCE

Read them all and educate yourself. How did it happen? It happened in the same way as T-90SM vs Arjun MK2 trials have been put off and it happened bcoz we have paid members on such open forums who work as foot soldiers of these manufacturers to spread falsehood and propaganda.

 

[Decklander]

No they can't, at +/- 30 degrees for each of the sides, crew compartment is vurnable as well as turret bustle where turret drives, FCS components and ammunition are placed.



I remind you that Russians developed ERA like the west did some time ago after WWII, while ERA was integrated in to design finally in 1980's. In second half of 1980's Russians developed universal ERA, also in the late 1980's and early 1990's it was then designed a new welded turret for Object 187, tank that was never intended for India. Later instead of Object 188 also known as T-90, was developed Object 188A1 known as T-90A with welded turret, also used on T-90S used by IA.

Russians never used, and never needed help from DRDO, that in tank designing is years behind UKBTM, OKBTM, KMDB, NII Stali and their western counterparts like Krauss Maffei Wegmann, NEXTER, BAe or GDLS.

Besides this during WWII Soviets were the ones that were designing one of the best protected tanks, and I am not talking here for a famous but failed T-34 series, but such designs as T-44, IS-1, IS-2 and IS-3 as well as later tanks that evolved from them.



In any tank, FCS needs ballistic data for ammunition, so you need to load that data in to FCS memory, the case is that not every producer will provide you codes for the software. And no, Arjun can't fire any ammo from any source, because nobody besides India is manufacturing a 120mm ammunition for rifled guns. UK stopped doing this few years ago, and besides this, their ammunition is 3 piece, not single piece like that used in Arjun, so it is not compatibile.



Battle Management Systems can be installed in any tank. You think that NATO tanks when they were designed had BMS's? No, these systems were installed first in 1990's without any significant modifications to vehicle basic structure.

My aunt wud have been my uncle if she had B**ls. How can you install this kind of equipment in T-90 when even the crew cant stay inside it for a period of more than six hours as it is so cramped for space? T-90 will need massive redisgn to install equipment for netcentric warfare. Its not a mobile phone that you need to create this ability. Maybe in future you may. Israel produces these rounds for 120mm guns better and more potent than russian ammo but Russians refused to even allow india to modify the FCS for even India produced ammo.

You are once again shooting from your hip when you say that Arjun can't do it.

 

[Damian]

How can you install this kind of equipment in T-90 when even the crew cant stay inside it for a period of more than six hours as it is so cramped for space?

But Russians allready did that, T-90K and T-90AK command tanks have installed such equipment, T-90A as well, and should T-90S also. T-90MS have comparable BMS to western tanks. And you think that western tanks are not cramped? Oh they are, M1 series allready are in their internal space limits, so US Army decided to start ECP (Engineering Change Proposal) modernization, where all internal vehicle components will be redesigned or designed a new, in smaller, more compact form.

You see, you know nothing about MBT's and their capabilities.

A comparrision:

M1A2SEP TC station.

T-90MS TC station.

And Arjun Mk1.

Seems that internal space is comparable.

Israel produces these rounds for 120mm guns better and more potent than russian ammo but Russians refused to even allow india to modify the FCS for even ammo.

They do not produce the whole rounds, only APFSDS penetrators, that later can be fitted in a projectile sabot and propelant charge case manufactured in India. But other manufacturers preffer to sold their own ammunition as a complete package, much more reliable and capable.

 

[Decklander]

@Damian,
Can you pls stop making a fool of members here? I request you to please share the diff between command tanks and real battle tanks. If you do not do it, I will and after that you will have no moral authority to post anything here. You and your game will be exposed like noon sun.

BTW why do you always say that it can be fitted on T-90? Why the hell don't you fit it? Arjun MK1 already has it.

 

[Damian]

Can you pls stop making a fool of members here?

Making fools? The only person lying here and making fools from others are you, little lier.

I request you to please share the diff between command tanks and real battle tanks. If you do not do it, I will and after that you will have no moral authority to post anything here. You and your game will be exposed like noon sun.

You behave like a 5 years old.

In reality everything depends on what the discussed military wants and what doctrine it supports. For example NATO preffer all tanks in one standard, which means NATO do not have command tanks, all tanks have the same communications equipment and BMS. In Russia there are standard and command tanks, because this is how Russian Army sees it, however in fact, BMS system and communications can be installed on every tank.

Tanks are like computers these days, there is such term "plug and play", and this is how it works, the only thing needed is proper equipment that can be installed in vehicle.

BTW: T-90MS is not a command tank, because then it would be designated as T-90MSK ot T-90MK.

BTW why do you always say that it can be fitted on T-90? Why the hell don't you fit it? Arjun MK1 already has it.

Because it can be, simple as that, any tank design can be improved by installing new equipment.

I can for example say, why Arjun do not have powered commander cupola with remotely controlled machine gun or remotely controlled machine gun? Very usefull thing.

But I am not making idiotic complains like a silly sailor do, because I know, that such thing can be integrated with Arjun.

T-90S TC station, as we can see, there is a space for display, display is used mainly to show TC a view from gunner sight, however it is possible to mount in place of it a multifunction display for BMS and to provide TC a view from gunner sight.

 

[Decklander]

OKKKKK.
Lets discuss doctrines here now.
I have promised members here that we will discuss armoured tactics here. Let me know how much you know? It seems you were in either logistics or education branch of IA. I have serious doubts if you have ever fired an SLR also. Ok tell me how do you change the barrel of an LMG or open an SLR and what was your best time in stripping an SLR and reassembling it? What all are the features of an SLR which can be reset by a soldier and whr do you have the cleaning chord stowed?
I think you are a fake here.
tell me very basic diff in an AK-47 and an SLR?
Arjun MK2 has remotely controlled gun. Bcoz IA asked for it russians modified T-90S to T-90SM with a remote controlled gun. But they are scared like rabbits to put it on trials against Arjun as they know that they will fail.

 

[p2prada]

Since you have chosen to remain silent on my questions, let me answer.
During WW2 the average distance for tank battles was less than one kilometer. It has gone upto 3kms in gulf war due to better survellence capabilities. we are now in an era of UAVs/AWACs. Close range tank battles are thing of the past. Infact we may only have short duration long range tank battles before attack helos or fighters arrive on seen to take out enemy tanks. this is what happened in Gulf war.
So now we have a tank with 120mm rifled gun with outstanding accuracy upto 5 kms and we also have another tank with 125mm gun which can't shoot anything beyond 1800 meters.
So which tank is better placed to fight modern battles?
I wait for your answer.

According to Ray sir and even Col Ajai Shukla, in the Indian scenario, tank battles are still in the 1 Km distance in the desert due to the sand dunes.

Apart from that T-90 has shot targets at 8Km. It also depends on the FCS, not just the gun.

As mentioned before, APFSDS is ineffective at those distances. You can probably send a HEAT round against soldiers, but tank armour will bounce the shell right off. The American DU based shells are even less effective at greater than 2Km ranges compared to tungsten based penetrators.

Therefore, it should be rejected!

So, why are they buying it?

Time one should file a PIL.

Why is it not being done since the issue has been boiling for ages.

Sir, there are no actual deficiencies being talked about against the T-90. This discussion is like a spec vs spec comparison where the Arjun is a little more sophisticated being a newer development. They are all discussing the 1996-98 configured T-90S with the 2010-12 Arjun. It is wrong on so many parameters that it makes me laugh.

Like my tank has APU, yours does not. My tank is more bad ass. Forgetting the fact that the entire chain of logistics for mobility and employment of the tanks exists only for the T-90S and not Arjun.

interesting if is the case, then why the hell IA is putting our (tax payers) money on AC and APU, surely we are not suppose to provide for AC if problems with electronics in desert are not their.

Kya sir, I already explained that. AC and APU aren't expensive. As a matter of fact, T-90MS is expected to cost Rs 28 Crores while Arjun will cost over Rs 40 Crores according to CVRDE. Apart from that AC helps protect the longevity of electronic systems.

Even Arjun will get AC. And apart from electronics, it will keep the crews more fresh. Maybe the IA thinks AC increases productivity of the troops, won't you agree. In other threads Kunal bhai saab and you discuss about how it is important to keep soldiers comfortable and well equipped, but when it comes to T-90 there are problems. Like only infantry needs to be looked after. Once Arjun gets AC, all this talk will go to the trash of course.

 

[Damian]

Decklander



So now you try to create a contest who have a bigger dick?

It seems you were in either logistics or education branch of IA.

I live in Poland and I am a native Pole if you didn't notice.

Ok tell me how do you change the barrel of an LMG or open an SLR and what was your best time in stripping an SLR and reassembling it? What all are the features of an SLR which can be reset by a soldier and whr do you have the cleaning chord stowed?
I think you are a fake here.
tell me very basic diff in an AK-47 and an SLR?

What this have to a tank design?! :shocked:

Arjun MK2 has remotely controlled gun. Bcoz IA asked for it russians modified T-90S to T-90SM with a remote controlled gun. But they are scared like rabbits to put it on trials against Arjun as they know that they will fail.

T-90S had allways a remotely controller machine gun mounted on powered cupola. Very similiar to what have for example Chieftain, Challenger 1 and M1A1, or older Soviet tanks like T-64 series, T-80UD and most of T-84 series have.

T-90MS have remotely controlled machine gun slaved with TC panoramic sight.

 

[Damian]

The American DU based shells are even less effective at greater than 2Km ranges compared to tungsten based penetrators.

This is not truth actually. At greater distance the penetrator loss some velocity, actually DU performs better in lower velocity than Tungsten. However both at distance greater than 4,000m are useless more or less. But for example German DM53 Tungsten penetrator and US M829A3 DU penetrator will perform in similiar way to the range of 4,000m.

 

[p2prada]

Till now in our debate, we have concluded that Arjun has better mobility, longer range, more accurate gun, no over heating problems, fit for ops in plains of Thar & Punjab and T-90S/SM can easily match all these parameters of Arjun with minor modifications.
AM I CORRECT?

Overheating problems don't exist on the T-90. Like I said, media generated news to blow teething issues out of proportion. If you tell the French to tropicalize their systems, will they do it or not?

The Arjun you speak of didn't exist in 2000, when T-90s were purchased. It exists only today. Does the Navy purchase weapons systems based on promises?

Even Ajai Shukla claimed recently that the Arjun units are complaining about quality issues now.

 

[Damian]

P2P what quality issues?