Arjun vs T90 MBT

[militarysta]

Without these how could dejawolf and damian and methos are posting wrong armor thickness for arjun all over the net?
Is it correct according to you?

In fact they are some variant of calculate.

Varinat no.1 -IMHO slight overestimeted
If whole gun mantled mask is 114cm width then values are this:
frontal turret armour: 940mm LOS
armour block behind main sight: 450mm LOS
turret sides at 30.: 550mm LOS
thin turret sides after boxes at 90: ~60mm thick
gun mantled mask ~450mm LOS

Varinat No.2 IMHO - impossible
If turret width is 3,5m then possible LOS is like:
frontal turret armour: 1000mm LOS
armour block behind main sight: 500mm LOS
turret sides at 30.: 600mm LOS
thin turret sides after boxes at 90: ~60mm thick
gun mantled mask 500mm LOS

Variat No.3
If whole turret width is circa 3,2m then LOS is like this:
frontal turret armour: 900mm LOS
armour block behind main sight: 450mm LOS
turret sides at 30.: 500-520mm LOS
thin turret sides after boxes at 90: ~50mm thick
gun mantled mask 450-460mm LOS


EDIT:

Variant No.4 -IMHO consist whit reality
Values given by STGN - turret ~2,84m width:
frontal turret armour: 820mm LOS
armour block behind main sight: 400mm LOS
turret sides at 30.: 460mm LOS
thin turret sides after boxes at 90: ~50mm thick
gun mantled mask 400mm LOS

Your earlier estimates of armor are also wrong as per your statements in the above post.

But the reson was only one: I trust that Kunal gives propper values. If Kunal post wrong values then whole calculate was wrong. Simple. Good Arjun draw is not avaible in net.

EDIT-2
propper Arjun LOS values will be somwhere between Varinat No.4 and Variant No.3

 

[ersakthivel]

In fact they are some variant of calculate.

Varinat no.1 -IMHO slight overestimeted
If whole gun mantled mask is 114cm width then values are this:
frontal turret armour: 940mm LOS
armour block behind main sight: 450mm LOS
turret sides at 30.: 550mm LOS
thin turret sides after boxes at 90: ~60mm thick
gun mantled mask ~450mm LOS

Varinat No.2 IMHO - impossible
If turret width is 3,5m then possible LOS is like:
frontal turret armour: 1000mm LOS
armour block behind main sight: 500mm LOS
turret sides at 30.: 600mm LOS
thin turret sides after boxes at 90: ~60mm thick
gun mantled mask 500mm LOS

Variat No.3
If whole turret width is circa 3,2m then LOS is like this:
frontal turret armour: 900mm LOS
armour block behind main sight: 450mm LOS
turret sides at 30.: 500-520mm LOS
thin turret sides after boxes at 90: ~50mm thick
gun mantled mask 450-460mm LOS


EDIT:

Variant No.4 -IMHO consist whit reality
Values given by STGN - turret ~2,84m width:
frontal turret armour: 820mm LOS
armour block behind main sight: 400mm LOS
turret sides at 30.: 460mm LOS
thin turret sides after boxes at 90: ~50mm thick
gun mantled mask 400mm LOS



But the reson was only one: I trust that Kunal gives propper values. If Kunal post wrong values then whole calculate was wrong. Simple. Good Arjun draw is not avaible in net.

EDIT-2
propper Arjun LOS values will be somwhere between Varinat No.4 and Variant No.3

What I asked is not your statistics.The logic behind these statistics,
Not your certificate for STGN or DEJAWOLF or damian,
I know none of these guys have any worthwhile knowledge for making these assumptions,
Thats is the reason they are neither contradicting nor agreeing with me,
Since none of them know even the width of arjun's turret their so called determination of armor specifications is hilarious.
You can point out the flaws, in case you find any in my calculation in post no-1217
which contradicts all these fancy numbers you posted above.

 

[ersakthivel]

Tells us again how you estimated 3.2 meters width?

This is of cause not 100% accurate but it clearly shows that 3.2 is way overestimated.
The tank would have some big hips if you where right.

Do you know the correct width of arjun MBT with armor skirts or without armor skirts?
It is quite evident till today you don't know that,
Then why are you advancing specs for armor thickness?
hilarious, till today you don't even know the tank width, turret width and height of arjun,
But you know it's armor specs, which will be a classified info!!!!!!!!!!!

You are much better,
some guys acting up like tank experts have produced even 3d models ,
without knowing even these basic info and are now keeping a stony silence.

Just take a look with your bare eyes the men standing inside the crew hatch,
the crew hatch is just 550 mm wide,
there is less than half the crew hatch width available for standing on arjun hull besides the turret,
Infact a man cannot stand straight facing us on the side.

The total space available on both the sides barely equal a crew hatch diameter that vis 550 mm.
So if arjun's hull measures 3840 mm anyone can see the turret should measure at the most 600 mm less than that,
That is 3200 mm+.Enough?

If you have any doubts this is a photo with dimensions marked on.

 

[Dejawolf]

Tells us again how you estimated 3.2 meters width?

This is of cause not 100% accurate but it clearly shows that 3.2 is way overestimated.
The tank would have some big hips if you where right.

yeah i made a similar comparison 554 posts ago, but it didn't budge the zealots belief in the arjun.

according to eshaktivel, the Arjun is not a tank, it's the messiah of armour warfare, it's mere presence on the battlefield is enough to vanquish it's foes, blinding whoever opposes it with it's radiant otherwordly glow.

 

[ersakthivel]

yeah i made a similar comparison 554 posts ago, but it didn't budge the zealots belief in the arjun.

according to eshaktivel, the Arjun is not a tank, it's the messiah of armour warfare, it's mere presence on the battlefield is enough to vanquish it's foes, blinding whoever opposes it with it's radiant otherwordly glow.

ARJUN is a messiah or not is none of my business or your business,
The basic question is whether any competent logic is used ,

for many of those so called fancy armor width specification,
which gave a way lower armor spec for arjun than it actually is,

Which according to my calculation in the post in post no-1217above doesnot hold water,
if you have any doubts you can question my assumption and point out mistakes if any ,

A debate must use a basis that can be verified by all concerned,

Not some fancy 3d model with no dimensions

I like it a lot when people accept mistakes, however weired it may be,

What is quite clear is that people who are advancing the theory that,
the designers of arjun while following western design style in turret design,
have made armor placements in line with soviet philosophy don't even know the basic dimensions of ARJUN,
let alone armor thickness.

well you marked 36 cms on two places over ARJUN side skirts, they are way inaccurate as well.
36 cms is more than one feet. But those skirts won't even hold a shoe width ,if you look at the men standing.
SO accurate measurements of those skirts must be about 50 mm each roughly.

Considering the dimensions of the two men standing over it ,
it is obvious that the hull platform extending outside the turret is no more than 300 mm wide,
So 2x300 mm for both the sides gives =600 mm
Turret width 3200mm+600 mm on the sides gives 3800 mm.

So the width of the mantlet plate can easily be determined by simply using a measuring scale,
So all the assumptions behind my calculations in post no-1217 is corrrect,whether people like it or not,

if there are any addition and substraction mistakes they can be pointed out and checked by all other members,

as my method doesnot uses any 3d modelling with unknown logic behind dimensions

 

[pmaitra]

If your are referring to green line changing direction half way its not optical illusion its because the front turret roof is sloped and the rear turret roof is horizontal. So the angle in relation to the camera changes and they should not be straight. There is off cause some approximation error though I don't think its note worthy great for the purpose of the image, to illustrate the width of the area behind the mantle.
STGN

I am not sure whether you are talking about your diagram or mine. Mine already takes into account a sloping and then flat roof. I also think the right (US passenger) side hatch is higher, which aids in the illusion.

 

[ersakthivel]

The ammo storage starts well inside the turret crew hatch opening hole,
SO from the frontal 60 deg arc scoring a direct hit on it is a pipe dream,
It has enough space for armor mounting between it's right side edge and the turret side wall.

 

[Dejawolf]

as my method doesnot uses any 3d modelling with unknown logic behind dimensions

urrrh...

there's no unknown logic behind my 3d models. i based my model on the line drawing from bharat rhakshak.
which means the dimensions should be pretty damn accurate.

 

[ersakthivel]

The ammo storage starts well inside the turret crew hatch opening hole,
SO from the frontal 60 deg arc scoring a direct hit on it is a pipe dream,
It has enough space for armor mounting between it's right side edge and the turret side wall.
AS per my calculations in post 1217, crew hatch hole edge is about 995 mm (700 mm( half of green shaded areawidth )+radius of the crew hatch) away from gun center line,
SO 3200/2=1600 mm is the outter edge of the turret side ,
So 1600 mm-995 mm=605 mm space is available for armor in which about 200 mm would have been occupied by storage box as storage box starts besides of ammo storage in side view,

SO more than 400 mm of space is there for armor.
If storage box is converted into armor total space would be more than 600 mm.

 

[ersakthivel]

urrrh...

there's no unknown logic behind my 3d models. i based my model on the line drawing from bharat rhakshak.
which means the dimensions should be pretty damn accurate.

But all the assumptions for inside arrangement of side turret wall and the scribbled red box , so called vision block is wrong as they were placed there arbitarily by you,

The visionblocks would be inside the green shaded area drawn by PMAITRA , not behind the gunner's main sight is my determination in post no -1217.

The big white display box is the one behind the gunner's main sight is my estimate out side the green shaded area.
That green shaded area measures 1400 mm in width is my estimation in post no-1217.

The mantlet plate's width is given as 1140 mm in a photo in the forum,
SInce the green shaded area starts at the edge of the turret it's width is 1400 mm as i measured in post no-1217.

Since this green shaded area's both the side lines reach the crew hatch center, which is the edge of the Tc's seat,
So the Tc's seat is situated 700 mm from the turret center,
For the edge of the crew hatch you can add the radius of crew hatch which is 275 mm.
SO the crew hatch edge is about 975 mm from the turret center,
An elbow room of 200 mm for the Tc, then we reach the turret inner side wall ,
whose distance from the center of the turret is 1175 mm.
So from 1600 mm distance of the turret side wall from the center line of the turret you can deduct this1175 mm,
Which gives at least 425 mm space for the side turret armor.
The storage boxes start only after the crew hatch in the production model arjun,
SO this 425 mm space is available for armor is without an iota of doubt,

After the Tc's seat elbow room are the turret side wall curves inside so the storage boxes wont affect armor space is my guess.

This wrong placement of yours is the reason for arriving at such mistaken details for armor spec is my guess.

Since the vision block is situated inside the green shaded area there is no shortage of armor space behind the gunner's main sight is my contention,

So design wise the ARJUN turret offers enough space for very good armor protection, how much of this is taken up for composite armor inserts should have been opsec,
That is what alluded by the statement i quoted in this thread by the military website ,which says that ARJUN has composite armor placemenets alll around, opposed to your statement that it has just 50 mm thick side walls.

 

[Dejawolf]

But all the assumptions for inside arrangement of side turret wall and the scribbled red box , so called vision block is wrong as they were placed there arbitarily by you,

The visionblocks would be inside the green shaded are , not behind the gunner;s main sight is my determination in post no -1217.

the placement of the vision blocks, Gunners primary sight and all that is also based on line drawings from bharat rhakshak.

 

[Damian]

The ammo storage starts well inside the turret crew hatch opening hole,

It seems that you have also problems with your eyes.

SO from the frontal 60 deg arc scoring a direct hit on it is a pipe dream,

Well for someone who live in a fantasy world perhaps yes, in the real world a pipe dream is Arjun "superiority".

It has enough space for armor mounting between it's right side edge and the turret side wall.

This is a good joke, even if you would put there armor of some sort, against what it would be efficent? Not against anything bigger than some RPG's.

AS per my calculations in post 1217, crew hatch hole edge is about 995 mm (700 mm( half of green shaded areawidth )+radius of the crew hatch) away from gun center line,
SO 3200/2=1600 mm is the outter edge of the turret side ,
So 1600 mm-995 mm=605 mm space is available for armor in which about 200 mm would have been occupied by storage box as storage box starts besides of ammo storage in side view,

SO more than 400 mm of space is there for armor.
If storage box is converted into armor total space would be more than 600 mm.

I want 2x the same stuff you smoke!

some of these 3d fanboys are posting a lot of bs from their supposed calculation which are based on picture takes of arjun at different times.

We at least are intelligent... which is difficult to say about some people here.

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

while i was searching in the internet about modern chinese mbt i came over an article which claims that type99km has a 155mm main smoothbore gun,2100 hp engine and 75 ton weight.if this is indeed the case then it must be atleast 10 years advanced than arjun mk2 and the nato mbt's.can anyone please elaborate on the subject?

 

[Dejawolf]

I want 2x the same stuff you smoke!
:

wouldn't recommend it, it damages your brain

 

[Damian]

wouldn't recommend it, it damages your brain

Oh don't worry we are not that vurnable, it is more probabale that he would be dead after a single party with Polish students.

 

[ersakthivel]

the placement of the vision blocks, gunners primary sight and all that is also based on line drawings from bharat rhakshak.

show me the line drawing of placement for vision blocks from bharath rakshak

 

[ersakthivel]

It seems that you have also problems with your eyes.



Well for someone who live in a fantasy world perhaps yes, in the real world a pipe dream is Arjun "superiority".



This is a good joke, even if you would put there armor of some sort, against what it would be efficent? Not against anything bigger than some RPG's.



I want 2x the same stuff you smoke!



We at least are intelligent... which is difficult to say about some people here.

I always suspected that you are posting your specs for arjun after a good deal of smoking some stuff.Now you are proving my point.
Thanks

 

[ersakthivel]

wouldn't recommend it, it damages your brain

Well you are starting to show your true scholarly rigor now,
Caught pants down it is the only thing left to do I suppose,

 

[Dejawolf]

Ofcourse I am not capable of that, SO you can carry on with your great parties, BYE,

how about you leave this time.

 

[Dejawolf]

show me the line drawing of placement for vision blocks from bharath rakshak

there you go, it's at the bottom there. i've created a few boxes which shows how the measures matches up.