Arjun vs T90 MBT

[p2prada]

Again, read and understand what I wrote. Read what has been written over a dozen times here about rifled and smoothbore guns. You are clueless when it comes to technical aspects, instead you prefer some self-published articles on blogs and forums.

He can't read. He can't comprehend. That was established months ago. It hasn't improved either.

You are a master of deciet? Why have you moved the point back for Arjun while I told you to use T-90 datum for Arjun? Pls keep it at the same point point as T-90 and than draw the arc for Arjun and you will know what I am saying.
T-90 has smaller turret but Arjun has longer turret and the rear part of Arjun has nothing critical in it. But it is better protected for the same angle as T-90 when you look at it from the datum of T-90.

There is no deceit here. The T-90 turret is smaller, if you want a proper comparison then look at the M1's turret and the Arjun's. There is no difference in the 30degree arc for both tanks visually.

Which one of them is better protected?

 

[Decklander]

@methos,
seems we both are speaking same thing with different words.
Yes I want arcs redrawn with rear of the turret for both Arjun & T-90 but pls do not shift the arcs of T-90 back to match the turret size of Arjun. When you do it, the arcs of T-90 look bigger than Arjun while the truth is that they are equal. And protection level of Arjun is slightly better as the area other than 60* arc is better protected in Arjun compared with T-90. Even within 60* the frontal area of Arjun has thicker armour than T-90.
We indians have operated tanks in these areas better than anybody else. We know our design and the need to protect 60* frontal arc. Do you think we will be stupid enough to have an inferior protection than T-90 in this crucial arc? IA is very pro Russians. They wud have exploited it to shoot down Arjun long back.
Both Tanks are equally protected in that arc but Arjun has thicker armour in that arc.

 

[ersakthivel]

@Kunal Biswas
Did you post any images for the placement of composite armor on arjuns?

 

[ersakthivel]

He can't read. He can't comprehend. That was established months ago. It hasn't improved either.




There is no deceit here. The T-90 turret is smaller, if you want a proper comparison then look at the M1's turret and the Arjun's. There is no difference in the 30degree arc for both tanks visually.

Which one of them is better protected?

There you are shining your kindly light on lesser mortals like us.Surprise you haven't shown up early. So what is the virtual thickness to be encountered by shells at these tiny angles? Since I already know you are so well versed in aerodynamic matters please educate us on this too.

 

[Decklander]

There you are shining your kindly light on lesser mortals like us.Surprise you haven't shown up early. So what is the virtual thickness to be encountered by shells at these tiny angles? Since I already know you are so well versed in aerodynamic matters please educate us on this too.

Is he a doctorate in Aerodynamics? lets debate that also here. I take pride on my knowledge of aerodynamics and aircraft designing. Infact one of my design has been accepted by HAL for a real deep look as a potential first ever stealth aircraft of India.

 

[p2prada]

There you are shining your kindly light on lesser mortals like us.Surprise you haven't shown up early.

I have a life beyond the internet.

So what is the virtual thickness to be encountered by shells at these tiny angles? Since I already know you are so well versed in aerodynamic matters please educate us on this too.

Your pathetic attempt at sarcasm is lost on me since you are merely quoting facts here.

These were posted repeatedly by many others, "greater mortals" only need to keep posting the same thing over and over again for simpletons to understand. So, here goes.

T-90

T-72B
You can apply this to the T-90

Arjun facts,

Now compare to a tank like Leo2. Look at what's been marked in green for Arjun and check what's there on Leo 2 at the same place.
This is what Arjun should have been in order to be equivalent to the T-90.

Now look at the pic of the Abrams (green). This is what Arjun should have been for it to be better than the T-90. But looking at the above, it isn't even equivalent to the T-90, let alone better.

Let's even forget the fact that the T-90 comes with ERA equipped over the armour while Arjun only has it in prototype form.

It doesn't get any simpler that this.

 

[Austin]

Same video of T-90MS video but with English subtitles

 

[Damian]

@Austin, from merithoric point of view this video is silly, propaganda and typical TV show... but images are worth more than a thousand words, and say a lot about vehicle.

 

[p2prada]

@Austin, from merithoric point of view this video is silly, propaganda and typical TV show... but images are worth more than a thousand words, and say a lot about vehicle.

The fireworks are neat, even the editing is good. They have tried copying Discovery channel presentations.

 

[Decklander]

I have a life beyond the internet.



Your pathetic attempt at sarcasm is lost on me since you are merely quoting facts here.

These were posted repeatedly by many others, "greater mortals" only need to keep posting the same thing over and over again for simpletons to understand. So, here goes.

T-90

T-72B
You can apply this to the T-90

Arjun facts,

Now compare to a tank like Leo2. Look at what's been marked in green for Arjun and check what's there on Leo 2 at the same place.
This is what Arjun should have been in order to be equivalent to the T-90.

Now look at the pic of the Abrams (green). This is what Arjun should have been for it to be better than the T-90. But looking at the above, it isn't even equivalent to the T-90, let alone better.

Let's even forget the fact that the T-90 comes with ERA equipped over the armour while Arjun only has it in prototype form.

It doesn't get any simpler that this.

You know, being a Bhardwaj Brahmin I love to play games with the minds of people and draw them out into debate where they end up making a fool of themselves. I make them commit repeatedly to my point of view by throwing up same arguments with diff words.
Damian and you have played to my trap.
Pls tell me that when there is no divergence between the arcs of two tanks and both being parallel to eachother, The so called diff is actually only due to turret design and irrespective of distance, it will remain so. Just the way two parallel lines never meet nor diverge, similarly the distance between the origin of these arcs will not create larger area difference irrespective of distance. That couple of APPARANT feet will remain so even at thousands of miles or even beyond this universe.
Have a relook at the arcs whichever way they have been drawn, they are parallel to eachother for both T-90 & Arjun. That was the reason that I asked you guys to draw and redraw it.
@Damian,
My perception was never wrong, but you proved me right that europeans have no knowledge of geometry and to say the least, mathematics also.
I give you a small riddle, how much is the lateral difference between two arcs of two circles so placed as to have their center on same plain but displaced by a distance of five feet at 10Nm?
Answer it pls.

 

[Damian]

All of these TV shows are silly for us, tanknuts who are interested in the smallest details.

Although these TV shows have one, good side, great shots, so you can find some interesting details for analize work.

 

[methos]

Any official proof is what I asked.

Let me guess, you also think the Earth is flat because you haven't seen any proof?

In that thread you have assumed everything on arjun based on early model leopard well before the advent of modern higher penetration shells. [...] You made the drawing. You made the assumptions regarding arjuns based on old leopard model. [...]
Are you so sure CVRDE will base all their armor thickness calculations based on old leopard model which encountered much less penetrating rounds of those days.

If you had read at least one single post from me, you should have noticed that I have been constantly claiming that the Arjun has absolutely nothing to do with the Leopard 2. But hey, why don't we just all invent facts!

You are still ignoring the extra virtual thickness that the shell has to penetrate to gain entry posted bu PMAITRA.

And again you fail to read my posts. I don't want to start one of these pseudo-racism attacks like Decklander who wanted the Indians to each us how to do simple geometry, but your behaviour would offer a perferct draft. Didn't I mention the works of Lanz and Odermatt? Those two guys have shown that in fact armour penetration into sloped targets is much higher for all modern rounds. But hey, why should we read.
Still at angles of 17° to 30° - which is the weak area if we do not include the inisolated turret bustle - the maximum increase in armour thickness would be 1 to 2.4 times (for 30° and 17°). For an armour thickness much below 20 cm (as mentioned by Damian it is more likely between 80 and 100 mm) the armour will be insufficient to even protect against Indian T-90 ammunition (which is the Russian 3BM-42 from 1986!). Chinese or Pakistani ammunition (or even more modern types from NATO) will have no problem to penetrate this armour. Given the fact that there is no composite armour (by common logic, but you seem to ignore that) even RPGs from mid-1980s and anti-tank missiles from the 1960s (!) will penetrate this place.

You know, being a Bhardwaj Brahmin I love to play games with the minds of people and draw them out into debate where they end up making a fool of themselves.

But you are making here a fool of yourself constantly.

 

[Damian]

You know, being a Bhardwaj Brahmin I love to play games with the minds of people and draw them out into debate where they end up making a fool of themselves. I make them commit repeatedly to my point of view by throwing up same arguments with diff words.
Damian and you have played to my trap.
Pls tell me that when there is no divergence between the arcs of two tanks and both being parallel to eachother, The so called diff is actually only due to turret design and irrespective of distance, it will remain so. Just the way two parallel lines never meet nor diverge, similarly the distance between the origin of these arcs will not create larger area difference irrespective of distance. That couple of APPARANT feet will remain so even at thousands of miles or even beyond this universe.
Have a relook at the arcs whichever way they have been drawn, they are parallel to eachother for both T-90 & Arjun. That was the reason that I asked you guys to draw and redraw it.
@Damian,
My perception was never wrong, but you proved me right that europeans have no knowledge of geometry and to say the least, mathematics also.
I give you a small riddle, how much is the lateral difference between two arcs of two circles so placed as to have their center on same plain but displaced by a distance of five feet at 10Nm?
Answer it pls.

This my answer to you. Remember that we Europeans designed a tank, we are longer in this buiseness than people from most other continents, and we know better how to design tank.

How many tanks were designed in India? And I mean not only classic designs, but also progressive designs like tank with unmanned turrets. How many?

The only tank designed in India is Arjun, so please, do not teach father how to make kids, we have much greater experience in this subject...

And I can say many things in such way. How many modern, modular assault rifle designs were designed in India? None, while in my country, we designed MSBS-5,56, which is comparable and in some terms even better than SCAR, ACR or ARX 160.

With all great respect to Indian science and culture.

 

[Decklander]

@Damian & @methos,
You have still not replied to my simple riddle. Your own drawings show the arcs to be parallel. Pls answer my question thats it. We will know of your non existant mentality with your answer.

 

[Damian]

Listen @Decklander we will not answer, because we was answering several times, you are uncapable to understand that safe manouvering angles, are allways, marked from the turret rear, not from anywhere else.

But what I even expect from a silly sailor, who don't even know what suspension type is more modern.

 

[Decklander]

Well Damian, I am silly sailor and have no knowledge of tanks as per your thinking. But Pls answer my question. Its simple geometry. You dont need the mind of an einstien to reply to me me. Any sixth grader in India will reply to my question in seconds. How much is the difference between two parallel arcs displaced by five feet at 10 Nm. Thats it. Arc means they have to be part of a circle to be called an arc. I hope this much you will know for sure. I hope I do not have to tell you as to what is a circle?
In case you do not know that, than its as round as your mind. ZEROOOOO.

 

[Damian]

But your question have nothing to do about safe manouvering angles principle. As 30 degrees are meassured from the turret longitudinal axis and marked from the turret rear bulkhead. Simple as that. You try to manipulate a simple principle, only for your own personal agenda

 

[Decklander]

But your question have nothing to do about safe manouvering angles principle. As 30 degrees are meassured from the turret longitudinal axis and marked from the turret rear bulkhead. Simple as that. You try to manipulate a simple principle, only for your own personal agenda

Pls reply to my simple and very basic question? two parallel arcs with a difference of five feet will subtand what lateral distance at 10Nm. Thats It and nothing more. You can take help of the best universities of Europe and speciallyof Poland if you have any, to reply to my question.

 

[pmaitra]

Too many ad hominems and chest thumping. Cut out the personal insults, and attack the post, not the poster.

 

[Damian]

Pls reply to my simple and very basic question? two parallel arcs with a difference of five feet will subtand what lateral distance at 10Nm. Thats It and nothing more. You can take help of the best universities of Europe and speciallyof Poland if you have any, to reply to my question.

But this have nothing to do with safe manouvering angles principle. Do you even understand the principle of safe manouvering angles? You are derailing the thread with some completely not related posts.