Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT)

[Damian]

No! DM53 does increase barrel wear, but so do DM43, M829A2 and M829A3. The problem with DM53 is that at 55°C the pressure will reach 700 MPa. The gun does only support 710 MPa, i.e. firing DM53 at 60-65° C will let the barrel/chamber explode... nothing nice. DM63 uses a new generation of powder. Up to 70°C the pressure is always below 575 MPa - i.e. it could be fired from every modern tank gun without exceeding pressure limit.
The barrel wear was reduced by changing the components of the sabot and catridge, but this was only done as secondary task, main target was to be able to fire high performance APFSDS in all areas of the world (like Afghanistan or Iraq). The L/55 gun allows a 50 MPa higher chamber pressure and could also fire DM53 at temperatures up to 65-70°C.

Yes indeed, however I heard that DM53 propelant also acts for barrel like acid, decreasing it's service life... or course in case of other types of ammunition it situation can be very same... hmmm as a side note, maybe M829A4 goal is also to reduce wear and tear of gun, compared to older M829 series?

The Swiss simulated Kontakt-5 with a combination of HHS and rubber with a heavy slope.

There is however one problem, rubber as reactive material have smaller effectiveness than explosive material. This is why NERA/NxRA should be used in many layers (then we can assume that it is more effective than any ERA, however price for this is higher armor volume and weight), while single ERA module is far more effective than single NERA/NxRA layer.

So that simulation might give some general idea about K-5 but without tests on a real thing it would be difficult to design proper countermesure.

 

[pmaitra]

Damian,

Few points:

• T-90 and Arjun are not in the same class, but I see your point. In that case, even Abrams and Stuart tanks are in the same class because they are tanks and a tank and tractor are also in the same class because they are tracked vehicles. Ok, so once again, T-90 and Arjun are not the same Tank. Just because somebody, even if he is an army general says T-90 is an MBT, and Arjun was intended to be an MBT, does not automatically place them in the same class. They are in different classes.
• Rifled guns and smoothbore guns have nothing to do with being able to handle powerful rounds or not. You can take a smoothbore gun and cut spiralling grooves inside it and make it a rifled gun. So do not, and I repeat, do not compare a HESH round with a smoothbore gun. It is like comparing a pine tree with an ice-cream. Seriously, it makes no sense.

 

[Damian]

T-90 and Arjun are not in the same class, but I see your point. In that case, even Abrams and Stuart tanks are in the same class because they are tanks and a tank and tractor are also in the same class because they are tracked vehicles. Ok, so once again, T-90 and Arjun are not the same Tank. Just because somebody, even if he is an army general says T-90 is an MBT, and Arjun was intended to be an MBT, does not automatically place them in the same class. They are in different classes.

Seems that India not only have different designations for the same ammunition than rest of the world (FSAPDS vs APFSDS) but also completely differently classification for vehicles.

So let me get this straight. During WWII and some time after it there were light, medium and heavy tanks. Somewhere in the 60's medium and heavy tanks were replaced by one single class, the Main Battle Tank. Main Battle Tank have protection and fire power of heavy tank (and even exceeds it) and mobility same or higher than medium tank.

This is why in NATO and Russia, weight and size of vehicle doesen't matter, T-90 is Main Battle Tank, same as M1A2SEP or Leopard 2A6, all of them are MBT's, one single class of vehicles. Of course there are differences in details, but... may I welcome You in XXI century.

Rifled guns and smoothbore guns have nothing to do with being able to handle powerful rounds or not. You can take a smoothbore gun and cut spiralling grooves inside it and make it a rifled gun. So do not, and I repeat, do not compare a HESH round with a smoothbore gun. It is like comparing a pine tree with an ice-cream. Seriously, it makes no sense.

Seriously, read my post again, and again, and again, when You finally understand then we can talk.

As I said, rifled gun have lower service life than a smoothbore. We know that currently most modern APFSDS ammunition (designed to defeat vehicles protected by heavy ERA, composite armor and any additional protection, this types of ammunition have no analogs for rifled designs that were long time ago abandoned as designs without any future and long term perspectives by all biggest and most experienced tank designing countries) for smoothbore guns highly decrease their service life, now try tu use this ammunition in rifled gun, it is highly probabale that service life of rifled gun will drop beyond any acceptabale level.

However to eliminate any deficencies of Arjun design would be preatty simple, making it one of best MBT's over the world, not only in the region.

Replacement of rifled gun to smoothbore in this case would be rather easy. Turret can be slightly redesigned, relocation of main sight to eliminate weak zone is not rocket science, Side turret can be easy up armored by eliminating storage boxes and welding there composite armor cavity, so at least crew will have proper protection on turret sides.

This is not a rocket science as I said, it is only a matter of courage to admitt reality and fact that someone not payed much attention to mistakes of others and ----ed up everything reapting many of them.

Not to mention that high price for Arjun is directly connected to low production quantity, and Arjun will not be great export success, especially with gun that is not compatible with both Russian or NATO ammunition standards.

And it seems that many Indians complain why not many Arjuns are manufactured, well think about that...

 

[p2prada]

Damian,

Few points:

[*]T-90 and Arjun are not in the same class, but I see your point. In that case, even Abrams and Stuart tanks are in the same class because they are tanks and a tank and tractor are also in the same class because they are tracked vehicles. Ok, so once again, T-90 and Arjun are not the same Tank. Just because somebody, even if he is an army general says T-90 is an MBT, and Arjun was intended to be an MBT, does not automatically place them in the same class. They are in different classes.

Even though it is addressed to Damian I will answer your points.

A tank could be classified as a light, medium or heavy tank based on their size and weight. But all of this stopped in the 70s with the advent of third generation tanks. As Damian already mentioned, before the 70s we could have categorized tanks as you have done. But it is no longer relevant. The T-90 is a medium tank when it comes to weight whereas the Arjun is a heavy tank. But this is no longer evidence of protection levels anymore. Arjun was built as a MBT, so was the T-90. But IA gave T-90 the classification as the MBT as that's what India does. What I mean to say is the T-72 is no longer the MBT of the Army. Even with the induction of Arjun, it is not a MBT anymore. It is just another tank like the T-72. This designation is specific to the IA because of our vast fleet of different tanks.

[*]Rifled guns and smoothbore guns have nothing to do with being able to handle powerful rounds or not. You can take a smoothbore gun and cut spiralling grooves inside it and make it a rifled gun. So do not, and I repeat, do not compare a HESH round with a smoothbore gun. It is like comparing a pine tree with an ice-cream. Seriously, it makes no sense.

HESH cannot be fired from smoothbore guns. As for bold. You cannot.

 

[Damian]

Well actually medium tanks and heavy tanks gone in 60's.

T-64 was first called Medium Tank (средний танк), but later T-64 and T-64A and later Soviet tanks were redesignated as Main Battle Tank (основной танк). T-64 weight was around 38 tons, this was combat weight, and T-64 was better armed, armored and more mobile than heavy tanks such as T-10 that were weighting around 50 tons.

Similiar thing happend in US, where M48 was designated as Medium and M103 as Heavy tank, the M60 better armored than both, more mobile than M103, having comparable firepower, and mobility at least as good as M48, was designated as Main Battle Tank.

Same in UK when Chieftain was fielded. A bit different story is with Germany and France back then, Leopard 1 and AMX-30 while having comparable firepower and superior mobility, were somewhat lightly armored, still they were called Main Battle Tanks not medium tanks or light tanks because of their armor protection.

 

[pmaitra]

Even though it is addressed to Damian I will answer your points.

A tank could be classified as a light, medium or heavy tank based on their size and weight. But all of this stopped in the 70s with the advent of third generation tanks. As Damian already mentioned, before the 70s we could have categorized tanks as you have done. But it is no longer relevant. The T-90 is a medium tank when it comes to weight whereas the Arjun is a heavy tank. But this is no longer evidence of protection levels anymore. Arjun was built as a MBT, so was the T-90. But IA gave T-90 the classification as the MBT as that's what India does. What I mean to say is the T-72 is no longer the MBT of the Army. Even with the induction of Arjun, it is not a MBT anymore. It is just another tank like the T-72. This designation is specific to the IA because of our vast fleet of different tanks.



HESH cannot be fired from smoothbore guns. As for bold. You cannot.

Tanks are still classified as heavy, medium and light armour, but that also takes calibre into count.

As for the bold, I don't think you understand the concept of rifling. The HESH or HEP nomenclature has nothing to do with the projectile spinning.

 

[Damian]

Tanks are still classified as heavy, medium and light armour, but that also takes calibre into count.

Where?!

NATO have only two tanks classifications left, Main Battle Tank and Light Tank, same in Russia, Ukraine, China, Japan, South Korea etc. etc. etc.

As I said, welcome to XXI century.

 

[pmaitra]

Where?!

NATO have only two tanks classifications left, Main Battle Tank and Light Tank, same in Russia, Ukraine, China, Japan, South Korea etc. etc. etc.

As I said, welcome to XXI century.

You are talking of blurring of class lines w.r.t. modular design. I am talking of armour that are in service in XXI century.

See some analyses of Russia Georgia War.

 

[Damian]

Ok slowly now.

1) During WWII and up to 1960's tanks were in light, medium and heavy classes,
2) In 1960's onwards new class of vehicles emerged, they were called main battle tanks, they replaced medium and heavy tanks,
3) Main battle tank class do not depends on vehicle protection, armament, size and weight, main battle tank exceeds in protection, firepower and mobility terms both medium and heavy tanks.

It is now clear? Or I will need to explain You such simple thing for next few years?

And modular design or whatever You made in Your mind, do not have anything with tanks classification.

 

[pmaitra]

Damian, is Arjun modular?

Request: Please do not flood your response with a whole bunch of factually correct but unrelated information. Just answer to the point.

 

[Damian]

Damian, is Arjun modular?

No, did You saw modular tank? Besides some prototypes of universal combat platforms? I didn't.

 

[pmaitra]

No

Thanks. That's all I needed and I have truncated the rest of your response.

Now pay attention:
Tanks were and are classified as heavy, medium and light armour. However, the modern design doctrine is moving towards modular. So, you can add or strip modules and that quickly takes a tank from one weight classification to another. This is what blurrs this weight based classification. Calibre is also occasionally taken into account, but primarily it is weight.

Now, since we agree that Arjun is not modular, let me reiterate - the weight classification applies to Arjun, and therefore, let us not compare T-90 with Arjun. No matter which century we are in, Arjun in its current configuration, was, is and will be, a heavy tank.

I hope I am making sense to you.

 

[Damian]

Talk with person without any knowledge about tanks, that is making it's own tank classification that is completely opposite the real world...

Tanks were and are classified as heavy, medium and light armour.

Were, currently there are only MBT's and Light Tanks.

Face it, this is reality, not some of Yours fantasy.

However, the modern design doctrine is moving towards modular. So, you can add or strip modules and that quickly takes a tank from one weight classification to another. This is what blurrs this weight based classification. Calibre is also occasionally taken into account, but primarily it is weight.

WTF are these bollocks?! :shocked:

Men I want 2x this stuff You are smoking!

Now, since we agree that Arjun is not modular, let me reiterate - the weight classification applies to Arjun, and therefore, let us not compare T-90 with Arjun. No matter which century we are in, Arjun in its current configuration, was, is and will be, a heavy tank.

I hope I am making sense to you.

No You are not making any sence to anyone because You lack even the basic knowledge about tanks, their design, R&D history, and their overall history.

Nowhere in the world there is use of medium and heavy tanks, all of these were replaced by MBT's that are supplemented by light tanks.

This is reality, face it and stop with this silly argumentation that Arjun is heavy and T-90 is medium.

I said it, these day weith and vehicle size do not determine vehicles firepower and protection, nor it's tactical moblity, this is why there are no medium or heavy tanks anymore, there are MBT's.

So can we finally leave behind WWII clasification of vehicles?

 

[pmaitra]

Talk with person without any knowledge about tanks, that is making it's own tank classification that is completely opposite the real world...

Damian,

First of all, you need to quit flattering yourself.

Secondly, you should understand what is HESH or HEP, a smoothbore and a rifled gun before randomly picking out terms and comparing them.

Thirdly, you should read a little bit more before you start arguing - and while you are at it, read the thread title. It's about Arjun!

Come back to me when you understand the terms that you have been using and arguing on for the last few pages.

 

[Damian]

This is currently used APFSDS for Arjun? With what they want to fight with such ammunition? T-54's?! It seems to be shorter than 3BM42! :shocked:

First of all, you need to quit flattering yourself.

Secondly, you should understand what is HESH or HEP, a smoothbore and a rifled gun before randomly picking out terms and comparing them.

Thirdly, you should read a little bit more before you start arguing - and while you are at it, read the thread title. It's about Arjun!

Come back to me when you understand the terms that you have been using and arguing on for the last few pages.

Read at least one good book about tanks, then teach me how to discuss about tanks... and I read more than 100 very good books and other credible sources about tanks, remember that.

 

[pmaitra]

^^

Again, pasting a picture and giving details of T-72 tanks does not prove anything. You don't know what is HESH and how it functions. You could also help yourself and simply google 'heavy armour' or 'rifling' instead of writing 3 paragraphs about T-72 etc..

 

[pmaitra]

Read at least one good book about tanks, then teach me how to discuss about tanks... and I read more than 100 very good books and other credible sources about tanks, remember that.

I still don't think you know how a HESH functions and how a rifled gun functions. If you really did, you would not keep arguing.

I am sorry, either the books you read are ill informed or you don't really read as much as you write or claim to read.

 

[pmaitra]

Damian, why don't you do this for all the readers? Give the definitions of 'rifling' and 'HESH' for all to see.

Then, with your permission, I will quote what you had written earlier. Deal?

 

[Damian]

Again, pasting a picture and giving details of T-72 tanks does not prove anything.

? Where did I say something about T-72?

You don't know what is HESH and how it functions.

HESH - High Explosive Squash Head, ammunition developed to destroy vehicles without actuall armor penetration. Working Mechanism - Projectile warhead is filled with high ammount of plastic explosive in thin shell, upon impact plastic explosive "squash" on armor and explodes, this results in shockwave and vibration thag goes through armor structure and makes it's inner surface to spall injuring or killing vehicle crew or igniting ammunition or fuel. Due to ammount of explosive material such ammunition can have some effectivenes about structures but in general they are not more effective than HE or HEF ammunition in that role (HESH lack reall fragmentation effect due to thin shell, and also due to thin shell it can't penetrate armor or walls so simple spacing is effective solution to counter HESH).

You want to add something?

Rifling why do You ask me about rifiling? Ahh the old argument that rifled gun is more accurate than smoothbore gun. So how the hell UK Challenger 1 tanks during CAT competitions lost to smoothbore guns armed tanks? Same with Challenger 2 during trials in Greece, smoothbore armed guns tanks were more accurate even at closer range than Challenger 2.

How do You explain that?

You could also help yourself and simply google 'heavy armour' or 'rifling' instead of writing 3 paragraphs about T-72 etc..

Again where do You see something about T-72?

 

[p2prada]

Now, since we agree that Arjun is not modular, let me reiterate - the weight classification applies to Arjun, and therefore, let us not compare T-90 with Arjun. No matter which century we are in, Arjun in its current configuration, was, is and will be, a heavy tank.

I hope I am making sense to you.

Even if I say I agree, what is it that you are trying to prove with this statement? The reason I ask is because this kind of nomenclature does not really exist anymore even if it used in verbal form.

Heavy tank does not mean a better tank. It just means the tank is heavy. So, it makes no sense to call it a heavy tank anymore.

You are confusing the terms because you are assuming the class effect is the same as that in aircraft. Like Heavy MKI, Light LCA, Medium Rafale. In aircraft it makes sense because the bigger the platform, the larger is the payload capacity and thus higher capability when it comes to range and avionics.

But this kind of difference is not present on the Arjun vis a vis T-90. The Arjun has lesser armour than T-90. It has a weaker gun. It has more or less the same ammo capacity, and a similar range. The reason it is heavier is because it has an extra 4th man which increases the size of the turret and hence more RHA is used.