Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT)

[nitesh]

I see a big irony here, Indian GSQR always wanted a tank to be built which can be used not only for tank vs tank but also suitable for combating in urban environment. Whereas they import T90 or any smooth bore only suitable for tank vs tank role normally optimized for less then 2km shots, in other words the smooth bore designs gave away this capability for concentrating on tank vs tank role. And now once the tables are turned for Israelis when they faced asymmetric war fare and needed something like HESH capability, they make an exhaustive shell, and now IA will run towards it for imports, but Arjun always carried that capability will be flogged to death

 

[p2prada]

I see a big irony here, Indian GSQR always wanted a tank to be built which can be used not only for tank vs tank but also suitable for combating in urban environment. Whereas they import T90 or any smooth bore only suitable for tank vs tank role normally optimized for less then 2km shots, in other words the smooth bore designs gave away this capability for concentrating on tank vs tank role. And now once the tables are turned for Israelis when they faced asymmetric war fare and needed something like HESH capability, they make an exhaustive shell, and now IA will run towards it for imports, but Arjun always carried that capability will be flogged to death

That's not right. The Israeli shell we are talking about is a HEAT round, not HESH. It is a round that is entirely superior to the technology that goes into our HESH versions. Strictly speaking you are comparing the R-60 missile to the Python V. There is a similar level of difference with the two rounds.

HEAT rounds are currently more logical for dealing with infantry and during both Georgia and Chechnya wars the Russian tanks mostly carried HEAT rounds to counter the infantry.

HESH is entirely obsolete on tanks, especially when HEAT rounds are slowly doing what HESH rounds are capable of. Today the US Army uses HESH on field guns and are going to be phased out eventually.

The HESH round when fired on a bunker, explodes outside and then you pray the people inside are killed from the debris and splinters. The Israeli HEAT round, with a programmable fuze ensures the shell penetrates the bunker and then explodes inside maiming and killing everybody holed up in it. Other than that HEAT rounds are capable of penetrating tanks too, unlike the HESH.

 

[nitesh]

^^
Boss you are confusing the whole concept with as usual bringing a unrelated comparison. the HESH round is used against fortified structure such as bunkers not HEAT which is for anti tank role, for HESH refiled guns are used, smooth bores does not have this capability period. And now we are going to import this costly shell to add in our inventory. The irony is that our tank fleet does not had this capability all along, whereas Arjun GSQR was built around it.

 

[p2prada]

Then please explain the need to destroy a fortified bunker. Also explain why the HESH is better(according to you) than the new generation HEAT rounds in this role?

Also, explain why our tank fleet never had the capability to destroy fortified bunkers when HEAT rounds have been used against fortified bunkers since decades?

Arjun's GSQR in the use of guns and shells is obsolete.

 

[nitesh]

So the new round is completely uselss right? No need to import it, am I getting your point right?

 

[nitesh]

Damian the HESH is used against reinforced structures something like this: http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2011/04/08/bombs_away?page=full#7

smooth bores does not have this capability

 

[Kunal Biswas]

HESH is cheap and effective against:

1. Enemy Bunker
2. Enemy in Open
3. Enemy Inside IFV/APC such as M113 and BMP



All these capability in cheap and Low maintenance, Now when we talk abt these new shells which are effective but not Cheap and Nor Low maintenance..

So when we take HESH vs New Rounds, HESH have its advantages, Also most important HESH is pure HE and effective against troops on Open unlike HEAT

 

[Kunal Biswas]

@Nitesh,

You can fire HESH through Sooth-bore given the round have its stabaliser Fins, So does HEAT rounds can be modified to fired from Rifled Guns..

 

[Damian]

Damian the HESH is used against reinforced structures something like this: http://www.foreignpolicy.com/article...ay?page=full#7

smooth bores does not have this capability

Smoothbores have such capability, they can fire HE, HEF and HEOR ammunition + HE with programmable fuze. Really if You don't have even slightest idea about tank guns and their ammunition, just don't talk.

HESH is cheap and effective against:

1. Enemy Bunker
2. Enemy in Open
3. Enemy Inside IFV/APC such as M113 and BMP



All these capability in cheap and Low maintenance, Now when we talk abt these new shells which are effective but not Cheap and Nor Low maintenance..

So when we take HESH vs New Rounds, HESH have its advantages, Also most important HESH is pure HE and effective against troops on Open unlike HEAT

HESH is ineffective against enemy troops on open ground, it can't hit them when troops are hiding behind sand berm or other obstacle/cover, it can't be really effective in defeating structures because it is exploding upon contact, while modern programmable HE can be programmed to penetrate structure and explode inside, that is much more deadly. Also such ammunition unlike HESH can be used against low flying helicopters or airplanes.

HESH being cheaper do not have any advantage, more programmable HE ammo also can be used to fight lightly armored vehicles or even older tanks.

You can fire HESH through Sooth-bore given the round have its stabaliser Fins, So does HEAT rounds can be modified to fired from Rifled Guns..

HESH modification for smoothbores is easy, HEAT modification for rifled guns so that ammunition can be effective and have high penetration values is far more complicated. In the end smoothbore gun and it's ammunition is far more superior solution to the outdated rifled guns.

Oh and BTW, even simple bunker can be modified in easy and cheap way to be completely immune to HESH, just space with air between outer and inner walls of bunker and voila, HESH is ineffective, while HE with programmable fuze will be much more effective.

But to know that it is also good to know how HESH and other types of ammunition works...

 

[nitesh]

Damian, having capability with this so called new round and having capability at affordable cost is two different things. Point is that Arjun gun was having the capability all along, which now has to be put in the T 90 or any other tank with smooth bore guns at high cost

 

[Damian]

Allmighty god help me...

T-90 and any Russian/Ukrainian or Soviet made tank have allways capability to fire high explosive ammunition intended to destroy non armor or lightly armored targets, enemy troops and structures. Allways!

Vasiliy Fofanov's Modern Russian Armour Page

125 mm smoothbore ammunition - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Western MBT's also had such capability, however only recently such ammunition was adopted due to change in doctrine and with a fact that in close future it is unlikely to fight with hords of Soviet tanks, so such ammunition is currently needed.

For example M908 HEOR, a modified M830A1 MPAT, designed to destroy structures and infantry inside these structures. M908 is designed not only to make a big boom, but also penetrate structure and then explode, in such way not only structure is destroyed but also many more fragments will kill or injure people inside.

DM11 new German programmable HE ammunition, currently used by USMC tank crews in Afghanistan.

AMP new high tech multipurpose round developed in US.

Kalanit new Israeli programmable HE ammunition for 120mm smoothbores.

So all had such capabilities. And all are more potent than outdated HESH, but of course if You wish to You can still use outdated ammunition types, and see how rest of the world have a progress.

Look even British wanted to rid off rifled guns, there were many reasons to do so, and rifled gun is what killed Challenger 2 tank export chances, and now is killing that tank in British service, because it can't use wide spread NATO ammunition and production of ammunition for L30A1 rifled gun was expensive, so expensive that factory currently is non existing, and because of that gun and it's ammunition, tank was designed in such way, that is immposible to rearm it with smoothbore gun without deep redesign of the whole tank.

Arjun is here in a better situation and rearming it with 120mm smoothbore gun is not a problem, be it M256, M360A1, Rh-120, Israeli MG251 or MG253. All of these guns can fire most potent APFSDS ammunition like DM53 and DM63, M829A2, M829A3, M829A4 or other types of NATO standard 120mm ammunition like Israeli M711 etc. etc. etc.

Why the hell stick with 120mm rifled gun? When You can buy 120mm smoothbore licence from Israel for example, they will be happy with that. And rearming a tank should be rather simple, only changes will be in gun mount, rest should stay as it is.

And if someone say that rifled gun is more accurate at long range, well there is actually no hard proof that it is more accurate than modern smoothbore guns, and on typical engagement range, smoothbore guns armed tanks outgunned Challenger 1 and Challenger 2 with rifled guns.

 

[nitesh]

Oh please, I guess you are not getting my point, may be I was not clear enough sorry for that. HESH round is the most suited against fortifications, bunkers. Whereas HEAT is primary anti tank round. The smooth bores can fire HESH like the Israelis did after they faced such fortifications where tough to be destroyed without HESH, now they adopted it, but with additional cost, whereas IA who is going to fight the war is going to face such fortifications commonly, which is why rifled is better suited for IA's requirement.

And, please don't bring British in to this debate, they moved to smooth bores to save the money where common ammo across NATO will make sure cost of ammo remains reasonable.

 

[Damian]

Where did I was talking about HEAT (High Explosive Anti Tank), I was talking about HE (High Explosive), HEF (High Explosive Fragmentation) and HEOR (High Explosive Obstacle Reduction), all of them (HEAT, HE, HEF, HEOR) will be replaced by a single type of ammunition, by HE with programmable fuze, like Israeli Kalanit or US AMP.

Israelis never adopted HESH for their smoothbore guns, neither Germany, US, France etc. Nobody use HESH for smoothbore guns.

I have one question towards You, do You have any, and I say any, knowledge about MBT's their R&D history, their weapons and ammunition? Because You seems to not have any knowledge at all.

Do You even know that HESH was designed as anti tank ammunition during WWII by British? Yes this is a strictly anti tank weapon, desined to defeat tanks with thick monolit steel only armor, without piercing this armor, but to cause spalling.

It is easy to make vehicles or fortifications like bunkers immune to such type of ammunition, You can for example use simple steel screens.

So please, read something, educate Yourself on subject before You will wrote more nonsense.

 

[p2prada]

So the new round is completely uselss right? No need to import it, am I getting your point right?

The point you are making is as good as saying why we need the MKI. We have Mig-21 which can fire R-77s and we have Mig-27s which can bomb.

So, the MKI is completely useless right? No need to import it.

Who cares if the Mig-21, Mig-27 or HESH is obsolete? Why import the MKI when we have such wonderful systems already present. Similarly why import modern rounds when we have the old HESH round.

HESH is obsolete. It has been since the 80s. We are the only monkeys still going for it, but that's again because Arjun's gun is hopelessly obsolete and the Army does not want it anyway. Which part of "obsolete" don't you get?

Anyway we can't import from IMI because the company has been blacklisted.

 

[p2prada]

It is easy to make vehicles or fortifications like bunkers immune to such type of ammunition, You can for example use simple steel screens.

You can say the modern bunkers being made in Pakistan across our border are immune to HESH. Layered steel and concrete structures with air gaps between them.

 

[sayareakd]

wait some time i will post MK-II pic and video.

 

[Damian]

You can say the modern bunkers being made in Pakistan across our border are immune to HESH. Layered steel and concrete structures with air gaps between them.

Such complex and layered structure is not even needed to counter HESH, You can make it even simpler, a let's say 80mm thick RHA plate (it does not even need to be high quality steel) with solid mounting points to the conrete bunker, space between these plates to the bunker wall can be something around 100mm, and voila, bunker is completely immune to HESH.

HESH was designed to defeat monolit steel armor etc. But just a simple spaced armor can be very efective against it, cheap also.

 

[p2prada]

Such complex and layered structure is not even needed to counter HESH, You can make it even simpler, a let's say 80mm thick RHA plate (it does not even need to be high quality steel) with solid mounting points to the conrete bunker, space between these plates to the bunker wall can be something around 100mm, and voila, bunker is completely immune to HESH.

Ah! But we have other things they need to worry about. We know HESH is obsolete and IA does not have any HESH tank rounds in their arsenal for the strike corps anyway.

HESH was designed to defeat monolit steel armor etc. But just a simple spaced armor can be very efective against it, cheap also.

Yeah. The old tanks would display pretty big holes after being hit by a HESH. Not anymore. HESH supporters say it can be used to clear ERA. I think that is hogwash. If you managed to get into a firing position against another tank, it would be better to take out the tank with a kinetic penetrator instead. Or while you could be clearing the ERA the other guy could be clearing you out.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

HESH is ineffective against enemy troops on open ground, it can't hit them when troops are hiding behind sand berm or other obstacle/cover, it can't be really effective in defeating structures because it is exploding upon contact..

HEAT modification for rifled guns so that ammunition can be effective and have high penetration values is far more complicated.

But to know that it is also good to know how HESH and other types of ammunition works...

The HESH is being tested against such targets and very effective, Indian HESH round carry almost 13 to 15kg of pure HE and it have a delayed-action base fuze which can be adjusted, Army wouldn't except without such needs, Indeed Programmable HE rounds are effective but HESH does more or less same in cheaper Prices..

There was no previous need for HEAT round but now there is a HEAT round in development for Arjun, the explosive will be CL-20

 

[Damian]

The HESH is being tested against such targets and very effective

It is completely immposible, due to principles of HESH working mechanism and his interaction with armor. Simple spaced armor is effective against HESH, layered protection (composite) is effective against HESH, ERA is effective against HESH.

Kunal do You know how HESH is working and interacting with armor?

Indian HESH round carry almost 13 to 15kg of pure HE and it have a delayed-action base fuze which can be adjusted,

It does not matter, because HESH to work properly as is it designed, need to squash on armor (this is why fuze is delayed in all HESH munitions), then it explodes, causing vibrations in armor that ends in form of spall from armor inner surface, this spall is deadly for crew, but with a screen and air gap between screen and armor, effects of HESH explosion are only visible on screen, not base armor that do not interact with HESH.

It is that simple, and there is no other way how HESH work. So please, without such bogus stories, I read to much on that subject to belive in something like that.