Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT) Mark II

sayareakd

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maybe it can receive command from a third party target illuminator.
i made this years ago

with new Arjun MK-II, by launching CLGM (JV of LAHAT) it is possible to have non line of sight launch for 6-8 km range target and all these things which is shown below.




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hope other Arjun MK-I would also be upgraded to MK-II or at least launch CLGM/LAHAT missile in near future.
 

Twinblade

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This is an interesting picture. The picture description says 120mm KE Penetrator by Mahindra defence. It is not clear at this point if this penetrator belongs to Arjun's FSAPDS :confused:
 

Kunal Biswas

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The photo is not clear, We may know when see it from middle ..
 

LaVictoireEstLaVie

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Hello Guys , How does the new Arjun Mk2 compare to the likes of Leclerc XXI, Abrams M1A2 SEP, T-90S, Challenger 2 , etc in terms of firepower, mobility and protection ? Thanks in advance !
 

Kunal Biswas

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This is not compression thread, Its only for MK2 ..

Make another thread to discuss ..

Hello Guys , How does the new Arjun Mk2 compare to the likes of Leclerc XXI, Abrams M1A2 SEP, T-90S, Challenger 2 , etc in terms of firepower, mobility and protection ? Thanks in advance !
 

acetophenol

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A few observations...
* it weighs a whooping 68
ton with a 1400hp engine,
movement in desert may
prove difficult.
* ERA modules are exact same as K-5 not Relikt,
bought of the shelf.
* The LAHAT guidance unit
is mounted at the front
turret, asking enemy shell
come and disable me * The composite cover
seen on LAHAT guidance
unit seems a good move,
but ceveat is that one side
has ERAm the other side
has composite, ERA exlplosion will hamper
composite module
* The RCWS mounted in the
center, restricting
gunner's/ commander's
LOS (line of sight) * The apfsds is the same as
ever...

^^^Not mine,but questions from another member in another forum.
 

contra 101

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A few observations...
* it weighs a whooping 68
ton with a 1400hp engine,
movement in desert may
prove difficult.
* ERA modules are exact same as K-5 not Relikt,
bought of the shelf.
* The LAHAT guidance unit
is mounted at the front
turret, asking enemy shell
come and disable me * The composite cover
seen on LAHAT guidance
unit seems a good move,
but ceveat is that one side
has ERAm the other side
has composite, ERA exlplosion will hamper
composite module
* The RCWS mounted in the
center, restricting
gunner's/ commander's
LOS (line of sight) * The apfsds is the same as
ever...

^^^Not mine,but questions from another member in another forum.

interesting, any more info on this? As i see it, Arjun mk.2 seems to be a leap over mk.1, much better than the original design.
 

Archer

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In other words you are the one making the random assumptions, while my views are not pre-decidd. Let me tell you why: Form follows function!
So, you know little about the Indian industry, cant contest the points made, have made the assumption, that just because India had K-5, it must have copied it & now quote cliches to state that you were not the one making assumptions. Amusing!

Take a look at modern types of ERA which provide protection against kinetic energy like Relikt, Kaktus, CLARA (with Ultrax layer), ERAWA-2, DYNA, NOZH or Duplet. They alll look different, because they use different mechanisms in order to defeat the kinetic threat.
The Indian ERA looks like Kontakt-5 and hence is way more likely to follow it's working mechanism than the working mechanisms used on other types of ERA. Maybe the DRDO engineers did make some changes to the used materials, but it still seems like a copy of Kontakt-5.
So now you have a "maybe". If DRDO were to make a boxy ERA which merely "looked like" Relikt, or Kaktus, per your brilliant exposition above, it would be equivalent to the ERAs above, because it looks similar to the above.

That the Indian armour designers do copy ERA have we already seen with the Mk 1 ERA used on the upgraded T-72. It is in terms of internal layout and working mechanism a direct copy of Kontakt-1.
Yes sure, that Indian designers could have independently come up with a simple ERA MK-1 which works similar to Kontakt-1, when the principles of aforesaid ERA have been known for decades now & the IA requirements were limited as well (reduce HEAT penetration alone).. is not possible.

It has to be a copy of K-1. Cant be that DRDO folks looked at some basic literature research which has several reports of similar packages from ww designers, came up with a simple design that could be mass manufactured by OFB quickly & it happened to be similar to the K-1 like many other ERA packages worldwide..

It does also not necessarily mean that it is any better than K-5. And no, they did not say that K-5 level were the minimum requirements, this is another assumption from you.
No, I merely mentioned that you were the one making assumptions that those requirements were the definitive ones that it has to be equal to the K-5, and cannot be different in any manner. Of course, for you it cannot be better than the K-5 or even different in any manner, because it has to be a copy etc.

Guess what, I am going by the past record of analyzing multiple such programs & RFPs, whereas all you have on your side, is your belief system that just because it looks similar, it must be so.

The pointlessness of that argument is so staggering, that it baffles the brain.

All that must be done then is to make packages that look similar to some foreign ones & you will then claim that they are copies of those packages, even if inside they were to be empty space or something different.
 
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contra 101

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So, you know little about the Indian industry, cant contest the points made, have made the assumption, that just because India had K-5, it must have copied it & now quote cliches to state that you were not the one making assumptions. Amusing!



So now you have a "maybe". If DRDO were to make a boxy ERA which merely "looked like" Relikt, or Kaktus, per your brilliant exposition above, it would be equivalent to the ERAs above, because it looks similar to the above.



Yes sure, that Indian designers could have independently come up with a simple ERA MK-1 which works similar to Kontakt-1, when the principles of aforesaid ERA have been known for decades now & the IA requirements were limited as well (reduce HEAT penetration alone).. is not possible.

It has to be a copy of K-1. Cant be that DRDO folks looked at some basic literature research which has several reports of similar packages from ww designers, came up with a simple design that could be mass manufactured by OFB quickly & it happened to be similar to the K-1 like many other ERA packages worldwide..



No, I merely mentioned that you were the one making assumptions that those requirements were the definitive ones that it has to be equal to the K-5, and cannot be different in any manner. Of course, for you it cannot be better than the K-5 or even different in any manner, because it has to be a copy etc.

Guess what, I am going by the past record of analyzing multiple such programs & RFPs, whereas all you have on your side, is your belief system that just because it looks similar, it must be so.

The pointlessness of that argument is so staggering, that it baffles the brain.

All that must be done then is to make packages that look similar to some foreign ones & you will then claim that they are copies of those packages, even if inside they were to be empty space or something different.
good post !

a question to you sir, does arjun 2 has the same engine as the arjun 1? The poster i saw mentions speed at 58 kms, is it not less compared to t-90s?
 

Archer

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Sure,
thanks for claryfied thinks about indian ammo and tank program anyway. It's really interesting for polish point of view - especialy problem with the IMI and quality of they rounds...
regards,
Jaroslaw





btw: Have I notice that Poland in 2001 bought licensed production for Spike ATGM - 264 lunchers and 2675 missailes, and first batch imported form Isreli had 14,5% falitures ATGMS (fell down after lunched). The problem was in software in cold, foggy, rainy weather. Now produced in ZM MESKO factory "polonizated" Spkie ATGM have only 1,4% falitures. The same israeli IFV turrets: RCWS-30 and UTD-30 where rejected after tests in polish climate couse both turrets don't fulfilled more then 60% requirements of the polish MoD -for example in temperature -20 C degree both turrets where unable to fight... German and italian turrets havn't sucht problems in Poland. The sam old ex-Soviet of course :)
Hi Militarysta,

Still digging up the ammo issue,

Re: your second point, our experience with all equipment imported has been that mostly, its often faulty or not adequately ruggedized for ops, and needs further working on.
Russian batches of missiles, Israeli surveillance pods - all had to be reworked to meet standards that militaries require for operational use.

Basically the general rule of thumb is that most of these items are either advanced prototypes or have been inducted in the home market, and promptly have issues when exported.

Indian terrain is also varied (like every countries - you have mentioned cold weather specifics in Poland for instance) in our case its because the IA/IAF may want the kit to work in Thar desert (fine sand, temperature gradients different from other deserts) or Siachen (high alt and as cold as it gets) or Leh (hot weather but high alt).. basically the original kit will have issues someplace or the other.

We have had issues with almost all imports including those from Europe, US, Israel and Russia. Basically the end result is our trials drag on and on.
 

Archer

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good post !

a question to you sir, does arjun 2 has the same engine as the arjun 1? The poster i saw mentions speed at 58 kms, is it not less compared to t-90s?
Same engine but reengineered transmission to deliver more torque (to handle the higher weight). Top speed is not an issue because to be honest, none of these tanks will ever be used at that speed in their operational area (the desert). At most, they will be at 20-30 kmph (max) to get accurate shots on the move (in fact ~20 kmph) and the important thing is the acceleration (from rest, to move from place to place, get out of trouble) for which the powerpack (engine and transmission) has been reconfigured.

From the technology point of view, the 1400 MTU engine & Renk transmission is still good enough for our needs. But its older than the newer 1500 hp engines out from MTU itself & its basic issue is that the 100 hp difference apart, its larger in volume. A larger volume means a larger hull or for the same hull size & similar armor protection, compromises made in terms of ammunition carried, fuel carried etc.

If a more compact engine were to be used, and qualified (please remember that the MTU/Renk powerpack team worked extensively with DRDO for the engine to be ruggedized to meet heat issues & a specific radiator that could handle the Thar dust), it would allow the DRDO to make a more compact Arjun, with presumably better range & (slightly) more ammunition carried. That of course, would lower the overall weight as well. A new engine could be developed as well.

But to do so, they would need more than 500 tanks. Even the MTU engine TOT is vouchsafed if production extends for 500 odd units, this for a ready engine that is available off the shelf and already developed. Any newer engine, say a local development would require a larger production run to cover for the development costs & amortization.

Bottomline, the 1400 HP engine meets our current needs. But for tomorrow, we can do better.
 

arnabmit

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a question to you sir, does arjun 2 has the same engine as the arjun 1? The poster i saw mentions speed at 58 kms, is it not less compared to t-90s?
Yes, the same engine, but with different gear ratio which improves acceleration but limits the top speed. If 500 or more MkII are ordered then an 1800 hp engine would be developed and used.
 

contra 101

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Thanks

In uae, our Leclercs (original) had several issues with engines since it is a desert region, the p/w ratio is important there, less powerful engine resulted in a tank stuck in desert sand.

Our generals were not at all pleased with French so they asked a revised engine performance with an adequate weight at around 55-58 ton mark. Later, After a rework on engine output, it performed well, though still its a heavy tank for a desert environment. At 68 ton, will Arjun 2 not have a similar issue in your thar desert ?
 

Archer

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A few observations...
* it weighs a whooping 68
ton with a 1400hp engine,
movement in desert may
prove difficult.
The 68T combat weight IIRC is with the mine plough. Only a few tanks in a formation will be equipped with these.

* ERA modules are exact same as K-5 not Relikt,
bought of the shelf.
The production Arjun MK-2 will have a homegrown ERA package from HEMRL, not K-5, which has been in development since 2009 & even earlier.
http://www.hindu.com/thehindu/thscrip/print.pl?file=20090925261910000.htm&date=fl2619/&prd=fline&
"We have developed a hybrid armour that can take care of tandem warheads and kinetic energy projectiles," Appa Rao said.
From 2010:
The Tribune, Chandigarh, India - Main News

The Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) has developed a specialised 'hybrid' armour that will make tanks safer in battle and somewhat immune to anti-tank missiles. The DRDO's Pune-based High Energy Materials Research Laboratory (HEMRL) has worked on the new armour.

Dr A Subanandha Rao, HEMRL Director, said the hybrid armour would take care of tandem warheads and also kinetic energy projectiles aimed at tanks in the battlefield. It would increase the survivability rate of tanks........

The hybrid armours are likely to be used on the latest Russian-origin T-90 tanks and the indigenous Arjun tanks, Rao said, adding that the Army had been involved at every stage of testing and developing.


* The LAHAT guidance unit
is mounted at the front
turret, asking enemy shell
come and disable me * The composite cover
seen on LAHAT guidance
unit seems a good move,
but ceveat is that one side
has ERAm the other side
has composite, ERA exlplosion will hamper
composite module
Tank design is compromise at its best. Ideal situations are rarely if ever seen. If the CLGM/LAHAT module is not available with an integrated sight, it has to be fitted into a module that can also offer some armor protection and has clear LOS. By enclosing the sight in another module with say passive armor, it will be protected against ERA detonation from nearby panels.

* The RCWS mounted in the
center, restricting
gunner's/ commander's
LOS (line of sight)
Not completely correct, as the COAPS provides much more visibility than before and the GMS remains as is, with a clear LOS. By putting a RCWS with its own integrated thermal imager, CCD, LRF- there are effectively 3 sets of surveillance sights for 3 crew - gunner, commander, loader. This makes the Arjun one of the tanks with a collection of independent sights for battlefield surveillance. The blind spot to the left of the COAPS can be covered by the RCWS sight.

Further, CVRDE has a RFP out for a new RCWS as well. A new design could be used for the loader and placed elsewhere. Refinements are possible.

* The apfsds is the same as
ever...
Wrong

Broadsword: Upcoming modifications on the Arjun Mark II

5. Enhanced ammunition penetrator
7. Resin-based CCC

Out of :

19 major modifications:

1. Missile firing capability
2. Commander's TI panoramic sight Mk II
3. Driver's uncooled thermal imaging night sight
4. Additional ammunition (don't ask"¦ won't tell!)
5. Enhanced ammunition penetrator
6. Effective alternative to muzzle reference sight (MRS)
7. Resin-based CCC
8. Ten-round containerised bin
9. Explosive reactive armour panels
10. Infra-red/Thermal imaging resistant paint
11. Air defence weapon remote firing
12. ALWCS (advanced laser warning and countermeasure system)
13. Roof mounted driver's seat
14. ATT in GMS (gunner's main sight)
15. Advanced land navigation system
16. New final drive with increased reduction ratio
17. Advanced running gear system
18. New track system
19. Mine plough
 
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arnabmit

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Please correct me if i'm wrong

For the MkII to be a world beating tank, the following would be needed:
1> Move the gunner sight to the top of the turret
2> Thicker armor on the left side of the turret similar to the right side.
3> Upgrade to a 1800hp engine
4> ERA tiles on top of turret and in front of hull
5> Thicker ERA/NERA covered modular armor on the sides of the turret
6> Slat armor at the back of the turret
7> Much better APFSDS (600mm) and HEAT (800mm) rounds
8> Move the RCWS backwards and make it more compact so that the commander sight does not have blindspots in the frontal hemisphere.

With all these, can the weight be maintained below 70 tons?
 

Archer

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If I'd have to venture a guess, I'd say that it is an assembled module with ERA at the sides inside a composite radar transparent material.
IMHO, it could be the sight along with a Kanchan module. The Kanchan is typically available as a "block" as its a layered composite armor array. A Kanchan module with the sight would provide protection without having the sight destroyed, even if a part of the module was to be struck by a projectile (KE/HEAT) triggering the explosives.
 

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