Anti-Radiation Missiles vs. Radars

[Sancho]

You know why Germany abandoned its own advance ARM program? Developing one proves too expensive even for such economic powerhouse as Germany. Note that ARMs are specialized missiles and as such the demand for it is not that big like A2A missiles. So if France does not develop its own ARM it's because it'll be too expensive an endeavor for France to do it alone.

It was a joint programme with France, but it was (as often with European projects) too advanced! It was based on Meteor, with the same Ramjet propulsion, but contrary to the AAM, here the range and not the speed was the aim. Apart of the propulsion, they had developed a dual mode seeker, to remain lock on the target, even if the radar is turned off. That certainly would had made it far more efficient than HARM, or Alarm, but dual or multi mode seekers are now standard on much cheaper PGMs too. As I said in the Rafale thread, SEAD has changed and is not ARM based anymore. Growler with just 2 HARM needs support fighters to attack the SAMs too, an EF with up to 12 x SPEAR 3, will be far more efficient, especially in combined tactics with F35.

 

[Sancho]

How does India stand in terms of Anti radiation missiles. Do we have enough inventory of such anti radiation missiles to take down maximum Pakistanis radar sites in the first wave of attack? What is the accuracy of such missiles in our inventory.

Considering Pakistan which has been continuously equipped by the US in the name of fight against terror for many years, they must have a large network of radars that needs to be taken down in the first wave of attack. If the first attack is successful, many of theirs so called nuclear bullshit will be incapacitated.

Since we need large number of such missiles, it is essential that they should be cheaper and indigenous. Considering China as a threat as well, we need huge numbers of Anti radiation missiles.

We only have Russian Kh 31 so far, which also can be used only by MKI and since the upgrade from Mig 29 as well. DRDO has an own missile in development and testing, but there were reports about weight issues.
If we add SPICE 250 to Rafale, we could make it more useful for SEAD, but given the low numbers and specific locations, there is hardly any point. The SE MMRCAs on the other side could be a big improvement for IAF here. The F16 CJ is a proven SEAD platform and with HARM, JSOW and SDB well equipped. Gripen E, could become it's more modern successor, with better EW capabilities and Brazil reportedly inducting MAR 1 ARM, SPICE 1000 and 250, as well as the Skyshield escort jammer.

Another possibility we have are, Israeli suicide drones, that could be directed to already known locations. Might not work against China and at long ranges though.

 

[asianobserve]

It was a joint programme with France, but it was (as often with European projects) too advanced! It was based on Meteor, with the same Ramjet propulsion, but contrary to the AAM, here the range and not the speed was the aim. Apart of the propulsion, they had developed a dual mode seeker, to remain lock on the target, even if the radar is turned off. That certainly would had made it far more efficient than HARM, or Alarm, but dual or multi mode seekers are now standard on much cheaper PGMs too. As I said in the Rafale thread, SEAD has changed and is not ARM based anymore. Growler with just 2 HARM needs support fighters to attack the SAMs too, an EF with up to 12 x SPEAR 3, will be far more efficient, especially in combined tactics with F35.

I have yet to encounter a post that says ARMIGER was a German-French project. All I read was that it was a German program being developed by Diehl BGT Defense.

ARMIGER had HARM sensors + IR seeker. The only reason it was cancelled was because it became too expensive for Germany. So Germany is now considering of buying the new AARGM (HARM sensors + MWR).

ARMs are specialized weapons and will only be operated by very few countries whose warfighting needs demand it like US (and some NATO countries), Russia and China. But as a specialized weapon ARMs will always be the most effective weapons against radars (if you can afford it). That's why the US is investing in improving its already cutting edge AARGM with extended range (double its current range) to allow legacy (non-stealthy) SEAD platforms to use it against current advanced and planned Russian and Chinese SAMs.

Mind you the US has the most varieties of A2G kenetic and electronic weapons and sensors of any air force today and in the foreseeable future. It has smart bombs, rockets, glide bombs, cruise missiles, drones, satellites, EW, etc. and yet they still see the need for ARM. That should tell you that ARMs will remain an important weapon for SEAD.

 

[asianobserve]

So according to that logic you're saying the Wright Brothers invented the aeroplane 80 years before the Rafale so it must be equivalent. The difference in technology between the Wright Flyer and the Rafale is the difference between US 1960s SIGINT and the CERES constellation coming in 2020. Not even the US has a SIGINT constellation that uses triangulation, much less electromagnetic sensors as advanced as the ones going on these satellites. You forget we make military satellites for the US as well.

I must say I was expecting more finesse from you in marketing French wares. You see 60 years is a long time to improve on your system especially for a superpower like the US that is constantly developing and improving their weapons. In fact, the US has had a lot of other SIGINT and ELINT and other "INT" satellite systems since 1960. They have gone higher in orbit after discovering in the 1970s that higher orbits means better ability to listen to electronic signals.

BTW, triangulation has been in use even in the very first SIGINT and ELINT US satellites for that is how they are able to pinpoint the location of signals. In fact, the US has been offering to the public (Worldwide) for free satellite triangulation capabilities since 1996 in the form of the GPS and yet France is still in the process of developing its own top secret military triangulation satellites. By 2020 the US has had a full 60 years head start in that technology.

 

[Armand2REP]

I must say I was expecting more finesse from you in marketing French wares. You see 60 years is a long time to improve on your system especially for a superpower like the US that is constantly developing and improving their weapons. In fact, the US has had a lot of other SIGINT and ELINT and other "INT" satellite systems since 1960. They have gone higher in orbit after discovering in the 1970s that higher orbits means better ability to listen to electronic signals.

BTW, triangulation has been in use even in the very first SIGINT and ELINT US satellites for that is how they are able to pinpoint the location of signals. In fact, the US has been offering to the public (Worldwide) for free satellite triangulation capabilities since 1996 in the form of the GPS and yet France is still in the process of developing its own top secret military triangulation satellites. By 2020 the US has had a full 60 years head start in that technology.

INT simply stands for intelligence, do you know what that is? Listening to signals is a different function than tracking signals. You cannot track LPI radar from high orbit. It has to be done in LEO or suborbital depending on the sensitivity of the sensor package. You can keep beating your US great everyone else sucks drum but you have yet to show the US has the capability that the Elisa has demonstrated and that which the CERES will provide.

 

[asianobserve]

INT simply stands for intelligence, do you know what that is? Listening to signals is a different function than tracking signals. You cannot track LPI radar from high orbit. It has to be done in LEO or suborbital depending on the sensitivity of the sensor package. You can keep beating your US great everyone else sucks drum but you have yet to show the US has the capability that the Elisa has demonstrated and that which the CERES will provide.

No country will spend a lot of money developing intelligence geared satellites just to "listen" to electronic signals without the ability to pinpoint them, think about it. All US (and other countries) ELINT and SIGINT satellites can pinpoint locations of electronic signals. Even airborne platforms like RC-135 can pinpoint locations of electronic emissions.

The US has LEO ELINT satellites too.

Anyway, we are talking here about ARM, the Russians, Chinese, Brazilians, British and France produce them. So this is not an American monopoly but the US is ahead in terms of developing new capabilities in this field while everybody else is playing catch up. France on the other hand is still using ARMAT.

 

[asianobserve]

BTW, there are several kinds of intelligence or so called "INT" satellites. You have SIGINT, ELINT, RADINT, COMINT, MASINT.

 

[asianobserve]

xxx but you have yet to show the US has the capability that the Elisa has demonstrated and that which the CERES will provide.

You're getting funnier my friend. Take the case of the 4 constellation LEO ELINT satellite system in the US dubbed as POPPY. This ELINT satellite system is already retired and the program declassified in 2005. As I posted in previous posts the US has sent ELINT satellites since 1960, 50 years before France experiment with ELINT satellites under the ELISA program and 60 years before the planned lunching of CERES in 2020. Since the retirement of POPPY the US has fielded several ELINT satellite systems.

France's reason to launching the ecperimental ELISA is to have its own ELINT satellites so that it does not need anymore yo rely on American data, which the French pay for.

So if I were you you should stop claiming that France's CERES ELINT satellites is pioneering tech, it's not for almost 60 years already. In fact, other countries' satellite based intelligence systems are so advanced that they can and have investigated France's ELISA up close in space (satellite-to-satellite) as complained recently by your Defense Ministry although no country was named as the source of the satellite that did the snooping.

 

[Armand2REP]

BTW, there are several kinds of intelligence or so called "INT" satellites. You have SIGINT, ELINT, RADINT, COMINT, MASINT.

It took you two hours to come up with that?

You're getting funnier my friend. Take the case of the 4 constellation LEO ELINT satellite system in the US dubbed as POPPY. This ELINT satellite system is already retired and the program declassified in 2005. As I posted in previous posts the US has sent ELINT satellites since 1960, 50 years before France experiment with ELINT satellites under the ELISA program and 60 years before the planned lunching of CERES in 2020. Since the retirement of POPPY the US has fielded several ELINT satellite systems.

France's reason to launching the ecperimental ELISA is to have its own ELINT satellites so that it does not need anymore yo rely on American data, which the French pay for.

So if I were you you should stop claiming that France's CERES ELINT satellites is pioneering tech, it's not for almost 60 years already. In fact, other countries' satellite based intelligence systems are so advanced that they can and have investigated France's ELISA up close in space (satellite-to-satellite) as complained recently by your Defense Ministry although no country was named as the source of the satellite that did the snooping.

Poppy was for naval tracking and never achieved the desired accuracy, it was launched one at a time. PARCAE was the 80s constellation that used triangulation and was only ever for naval tracking. It was never sensitive enough to overcome the ground clutter over land. You are trying to compare open ocean surveillance to an all terrain mapping system. It just doesn't work. The US has nothing like it.

 

[asianobserve]

It took you two hours to come up with that?

I knew these systems before. I just thought it was a given that you know them already. That's why I was surprised that even that you made an issue out of.

Anyway, it took me sometime to reply since I have my main job to do.

Poppy was for naval tracking and never achieved the desired accuracy, it was launched one at a time. PARCAE was the 80s constellation that used triangulation and was only ever for naval tracking. It was never sensitive enough to overcome the ground clutter over land. You are trying to compare open ocean surveillance to an all terrain mapping system. It just doesn't work. The US has nothing like it.

POPPY was used to detect, identify and locate both naval and land-based radars. What I know from its history is that all sensitive aspects of it were reducted when it was declassified so you;ll never know for sure the level of success of this system. But almost all SIGINT and ELINT assets of the US are highly classified and closely guarded secrets.

I assume that France's openness in its planned CERES is due to the fact that France needs financial contribution from Germany and other European countries to complete CERES (obviously France is having a hard time funding it). Interestingly, CERES is only a series of 3 satellites and yet France is having a hard time paying for it on its own hence the need to proclaim to the whole World its existence.

In any case, I believe naval radars are trickier to track and locate since naval vessels are constantly moving in oceans much like aircraft (albeit at lower speeds). Land-based radars on the other hand are mostly stationary.

 

[Armand2REP]

POPPY was used to detect, identify and locate both naval and land-based radars. What I know from its history is that all sensitive aspects of it were reducted when it was declassified so you;ll never know for sure the level of success of this system. But almost all SIGINT and ELINT assets of the US are highly classified and closely guarded secrets.

Poppy was proposed and developed by the Naval Research Laboratory and run by the Department of the Navy. It was declassified years ago.

I assume that France's openness in its planned CERES is due to the fact that France needs financial contribution from Germany and other European countries to complete CERES (obviously France is having a hard time funding it). Interestingly, CERES is only a series of 3 satellites and yet France is having a hard time paying for it on its own hence the need to proclaim to the whole World its existence.

You assume incorrectly. If they want access to it they will have to contribute. Either way it will still be funded, it is in the White Paper as a national priority.

In any case, I believe naval radars are trickier to track and locate since naval vessels are constantly moving in oceans much like aircraft (albeit at lower speeds). Land-based radars on the other hand are mostly stationary.

Open ocean surveillance is less tricky, less ambient radiation and ground clutter to filter out.

 

[Sancho]

I have yet to encounter a post that says ARMIGER was a German-French project. All I read was that it was a German program being developed by Diehl BGT Defense.

Because Armiger was not the name of the initial project, but Aramis:

Anti-Radiation Missiles

• 13 NOVEMBER, 1996

Germany's Bodenseewerk Geratetechnik unveiled its Aramis design for an anti-radiation missile (ARM) at the Berlin air show in June. The basic configuration of the dual-mode-seeker, ramjet-powered missile was the result of several collaborative projects with France. This included the SPRINT programme to develop a dual-mode passive-radar/imaging- infra-red seeker.

The aim of the Aramis project, with an in-service date of 2006, was to develop a successor to the French air force's Armat and Germany's Texas Instruments AGM-88 HARM ARMs. The programme, from which France has withdrawn, highlights both the attractions and the problems of opting for a ramjet-powered solution for suppression of enemy air defence (SEAD)...

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/anti-radiation-missiles-9991/

Seeing double
15 MARCH, 1995

...Providing a common aperture for both radar and IIR seekers demands the use of advanced-materials technology. Split apertures, meanwhile, pose problems, with missile-airframe design...

A split-aperture approach may result in an asymmetric missile design. The traditional smooth lines of a radome could be succeeded by a missile front-end more resembling what one military source describes as a "shark's jaw". The "dog tooth" would house the IIR sensor, while the active-radar seeker would continue to radiate and receive throughout the front of the radar...

...The AAM is not the sole domain of the dual-mode-seeker solution. Dassault Electronique, along with DASA and Bodenseewerk Geratetechnik, is now looking at the development of a passive dual-mode seeker for a next-generation anti-radiation missile (ARM).

The seeker, part of the Franco-German anti-radar future (ARF) programme, would use both a passive radar and an IR seeker...

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/seeing-double-27656/

Which lead to Armiger and it's "shark jaw" seeker design:

ARMIGER had HARM sensors + IR seeker. The only reason it was cancelled was because it became too expensive for Germany. So Germany is now considering of buying the new AARGM (HARM sensors + MWR)

Lol, you really need to get over this US bias. Armiger had no HARM techs, because it was meant to be far superior, which as explained lead to far higher costs per missile. And currently Germany is not considering any ARM, because they first will decide which fighter will replace the ECR tornados and if they team up with the UK/RAF on a SEAD capable version of the EF. The next agreement for Captor E and P4E capabilities, will tell us more, but Electronic Attack with a 1400 TRM WFoR AESA, DASS jamming, as well as Spear 3 and Storm Shadow is certainly on the card.

 

[asianobserve]

Because Armiger was not the name of the initial project, but Aramis:


https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/anti-radiation-missiles-9991/



https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/seeing-double-27656/

Which lead to Armiger and it's "shark jaw" seeker design:

You should have read the whole flightglobal article. It says there that France withdrew from Aramis. And Germany wad alone when it tried to develop ARMIGER, only to pull the plug after the project proved too ecpendive for it.

Lol, you really need to get over this US bias. Armiger had no HARM techs, because it was meant to be far superior, which as explained lead to far higher costs per missile. And currently Germany is not considering any ARM, because they first will decide which fighter will replace the ECR tornados and if they team up with the UK/RAF on a SEAD capable version of the EF. The next agreement for Captor E and P4E capabilities, will tell us more, but Electronic Attack with a 1400 TRM WFoR AESA, DASS jamming, as well as Spear 3 and Storm Shadow is certainly on the card.

The passive radar detection and homing ideas works in the same pronciple as HARM plus they added IR targetting system in case the radar is turned off.

 

[Sancho]

You should have read the whole flightglobal article. It says there that France withdrew from Aramis.

:biggrin2: That's why I said that it was renamed, but it still was a joint development, which included French technology and I already explained why it was so expensive. Germany moved on alone, but the missile was too advanced, to be cost-effective.

 

[asianobserve]

Re, ARMIGER tech, the article I quoted above has made reference to ARMIGER using HARM tech:

Probably the target accuracy of the American AGM-88E AARGM missile is on a similar level to that of the ARMIGER missile (≤ 1 m); since both of them are based on the same construction (AGM-88D HARM) and both represent the same technological advancement level.

The above quote is corroborated in the book "Detecting and Classifying Low Probability Intercept Radar" which has this to say on the ARMIGER development:

16.9 Germany

Germany, a long time user of HARM, is developing the ARMIGER (antiradiation missile with intelligent guidance and extended ranger). The Germans have been participating in the development of international HARM upgrade program., the AGM-88D. The improvements consist of software and hardware upgrades including replacing the original mechanical gyros with a state-of-the-art GPS/IMU. The addition of GPS to the HARM would correct the long-standing problem of ARMs of what to guide on if the emitter shut down. GPS allows you to fly to a certain point when the target is not emitting at all. However, the US Navy decided not to proceed with the project. The Germans decided to proceed wit the ARMIGER program as a replacement for the HARM. Due to concerns whether it is wise to develop a single purpose weapon, the German Luftwaffe has decided to proceed slowly with the ARMIGER.

https://books.google.com.ph/books?i...AEIKDAA#v=onepage&q=armiger harm tech&f=false

 

[asianobserve]

:biggrin2: That's why I said that it was renamed, but it still was a joint development, which included French technology and I already explained why it was so expensive. Germany moved on alone, but the missile was too advanced, to be cost-effective.

No, it was not just renamed. The ARMIGER came out after German participation with AGM-88D upgrade program. When the US Navy pulled out of AGM-88D, Germany decided to proceed with its own ARM program under ARMIGER. Read again the source I quoted above.

 

[Sancho]

No. The ARMIGER came out after German participation with AGM-88D upgrade program. When the US Navy pulled out of AGM-88D, Germany decided to proceed with its own ARM program under ARMIGER. Read again the source I quoted above.

Again, Germany had no own development, it was a joint one and that's the base of Armiger, with the same dual mode seeker and the same Ramjet propulsion base and no relation to HARM. Just because you want to link everything to the US somehow, it doesn't mean it's true.

 

[asianobserve]

Re Luftawffe's selection of AARGM as its HARM replacement, read this article:

AARGM anti-radiation missile, developed for the US Navy and for the Italian government has also been selected by the German Air Force, as a replacement of the AGM-88B HARM weapon, to become integrated with the Tornado jets in Luftwaffe in the future.As a result of the aforesaid steps, the missile will become the core armament of the NATO air forces specialized in SEAD/DEAD operations (Suppression/Destruction of Enemy Air Defences).The missiles are also being offered to Poland, as the armament for the F-16 C/D Block 52+ fighters.

AARGM missiles will become a part of the armament inventory of the German and Italian Air Forces. As we were informed by the spokesperson for the German MoD: "Germany has chosen to upgrade a subset of the AGM-88B HARM missiles to AGM-88E AARGM.”. In this way, Luftwaffe is going to become the second user of the said missiles, among the European NATO member states.

http://www.defence24.com/aargm-miss...nato-rebuilds-its-anti-radiation-capabilities

 

[asianobserve]

Again, Germany had no own development, it was a joint one and that's the Base of Armiger, with the same dual mode seeker and the same Ramjet propulsion base. Just because you want to link everything to the US somehow, it doesn't mean it's true.

The insertion of IR in ARMIGER was the German idea, perhaps Germany came up with that idea during its joint early design work for the ARAMIS with France, from which France would early on withdraw from, but the rest of the homing system is taken from Germany's participation in the AGM-88D upgrade program.

 

[Sancho]

The insertion of IR in ARMIGER was the German idea, perhaps Germany came up with that idea during its joint early design work for the ARAMIS with France, from which France would early on withdraw from, but the rest of the homing system is taken from Germany's participation in the AGM-88D upgrade program.

No need to speculate:
"As described by Dassault Electronique, the passive radar seeker would be used to HOME in on the emitting air-defence radar"