AMCA - Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (HAL)

[Super Flanker]

ADA is following the same pattern as KAI. Our AMCA is going to be a two phased program. AMCA Mk-1 isn't going to have an Internal Bay but will have stealth characteristics . In other words it's going to be a semi stealth 4.5Gen ++ FA ( assuming such a classification exists ).

The definitive stealth FA will be the AMCA Mk-2 .

No, AMCA MK-1 will have an internal Bay. It was designed from the beginning to possess internal Weopons bays, and every Iteration of AMCA from MK-1, MK-2 and beyond will possess these internal weopon bays.

AMCA MK-1 will be a fifth generation aircraft in the category of F-35, F-22, J-20, Su-57. AMCA is projected to be a medium weight fighter, F-35 is a medium weight fighter, F-22, J-20, Su-57 are heavyweight fifth generation Stealth fighters.

Whether it's mandatory for a 5th Gen FA to possess supercruise abilities is in itself a topic of huge debate across the world in defence fora such as this one .

F-35 doesn't supercruise , however the Rafale does. Meanwhile the former is considered 5th Gen whereas the latter is considered to be 4.5 Gen ++

The answer to whether the F-35 can or cannot supercruise is a topic of great debate.

What exactly is supercruise? In layman terms, Supercruise is defined as the feature/ability of an aircraft to be able to reach supersonic speeds without the use of an after burner. F-35 by this definition actually can supercruise, but for a very short period of time, basically a short dash. The F-35 can sustain over mach 1.2 for about 150 miles, 150 miles into kms => 241.402 kms.

So one cannot say that the F-35 cannot supercruise, it can but not as good as other planes which can maintain supercruise at higher mach speeds and longer durations as compared to Rafale. Actually Supercruise is really just a marketing term. I think AMCA will be like F-35 only, it will limited supercruise capabilities while not completely none at all. Everything depends on the AMCA's powerplant, let's see how that plays out.

 

[MirageBlue]

A clear outline of what the final AMCA design will look like

 

[The Maverick]

Call me a cynic I don't see this happening even prototype flight until 2040

Which leaves Pakistan will have fifth gen decade before Amca arrives

I predict rafale F5 purchase as a stop gap

 

[raju1982]

Call me a cynic I don't see this happening even prototype flight until 2040

Which leaves Pakistan will have fifth gen decade before Amca arrives

I predict rafale F5 purchase as a stop gap

I also think so. AMCA mk1 is not coming before 2042. PAF will have either Turkish or Chinese J-35 by 2030. This will force IAF to buy either PAK FA or F-35. BTW by that time India will be $7 trillion economy. lol MoD's planning is bizzare.

After Rafale's delivery is completed, in last 3 years how many fighters IAF inducted?

 

[Super Flanker]

Everyone is making up their own timelines for the AMCA, Tejas MK-2, TEDBF etc! Like come on, I understand your pessimism but at least try to be a little bit more optimistic with respect to the timeline.

What we need to know is that we are all civilians, or most of us on the forum are from civil background with an above average knowledge about India's current affairs and our position globally as a rising power, I don't want to talk about geopolitics on a thread that is meant strictly for technical discussion concerning the AMCA.

I mean it's quite possible that all of this is part of a psy ops being done by the Indian government to show that India is lagging in the development of its AMCA, but in reality, the prototype of Tejas MK-2 may already have been fabricated by now and is all ready for its First flight, in the same way, there must be a certain amount of progress with the AMCA prototype that is being kept under wraps by our officials, you never know what kind of surprises we may have in store for our enemies! Just listing a possibility.

 

[The Maverick]

Our enemies are ahead of us by two decades Chinese aero power is reaching sixth gen soon
We are flapping at inducting 4.5gen in 6 years time in MK2 Tejas
Amca models only

Let's get serious realistic we have serious catching up to do and attitude change we need war footing attitidev

 

[Indx TechStyle]

Call me a cynic I don't see this happening even prototype flight until 2040

Which leaves Pakistan will have fifth gen decade before Amca arrives

I predict rafale F5 purchase as a stop gap

PAF is barely going expand for two decades, at least not with 4th or 4+ generation fighters. The best they will be able to get is more JFT class fighters.

PLAAF will have a lot though.

 

[AmoghaVarsha]

PAF is barely going expand for two decades, at least not with 4th or 4+ generation fighters. The best they will be able to get is more JFT class fighters.

PLAAF will have a lot though.

With AMCA atleast a decade or more away, what is our counter to the enemies 5th gen fighter?

 

[raju1982]

Everyone is making up their own timelines for the AMCA, Tejas MK-2, TEDBF etc! Like come on, I understand your pessimism but at least try to be a little bit more optimistic with respect to the timeline.

What we need to know is that we are all civilians, or most of us on the forum are from civil background with an above average knowledge about India's current affairs and our position globally as a rising power, I don't want to talk about geopolitics on a thread that is meant strictly for technical discussion concerning the AMCA.

I mean it's quite possible that all of this is part of a psy ops being done by the Indian government to show that India is lagging in the development of its AMCA, but in reality, the prototype of Tejas MK-2 may already have been fabricated by now and is all ready for its First flight, in the same way, there must be a certain amount of progress with the AMCA prototype that is being kept under wraps by our officials, you never know what kind of surprises we may have in store for our enemies! Just listing a possibility.

I think 2042 for 1st squadron is optimistic timeline. AMCA first flight is happening around 2029/2030. After that 10 years of flight tests and 2 years for production by HAL.

Dude, AMCA is also designed and being built by civilians not IAF. The people in Lockheed who made 6th gen aircraft in two years including FF with rapid prototyping are also civilians. The people who are celebrating metal cutting in HAL are also civilians.

And there is little gep politics here, its all about mis management and lack of innovating thought process.

Last, the psy ops part, are you kidding? The pics will come out as soon as they makes the landing gear. Look at the so called super secret Ghatak's landing gear ceremony.

Simply put, many of us who worked for renowned aerospace engineering companies will find ADA/HAL way of doing things very slaggish and babu-ish. If they bring a product 1.5 decade after it is needed, it is of little use.

 

[MirageBlue]

Call me a cynic I don't see this happening even prototype flight until 2040

Which leaves Pakistan will have fifth gen decade before Amca arrives

I predict rafale F5 purchase as a stop gap

Ok. Then you have no need to be on the AMCA thread at all! After all what do updates matter to you? You can check back in 2040.

 

[MirageBlue]

Everyone is making up their own timelines for the AMCA, Tejas MK-2, TEDBF etc! Like come on, I understand your pessimism but at least try to be a little bit more optimistic with respect to the timeline.

What we need to know is that we are all civilians, or most of us on the forum are from civil background with an above average knowledge about India's current affairs and our position globally as a rising power, I don't want to talk about geopolitics on a thread that is meant strictly for technical discussion concerning the AMCA.

I mean it's quite possible that all of this is part of a psy ops being done by the Indian government to show that India is lagging in the development of its AMCA, but in reality, the prototype of Tejas MK-2 may already have been fabricated by now and is all ready for its First flight, in the same way, there must be a certain amount of progress with the AMCA prototype that is being kept under wraps by our officials, you never know what kind of surprises we may have in store for our enemies! Just listing a possibility.

The problem is that the average jingo is not someone with aerospace industry knowledge or background. They come from diverse backgrounds and DO NOT understand how much more thorough and tight the guidelines and certification requirements are in aerospace development.

I mean you can develop a new car/truck relatively quickly and test it out thoroughly with abundant failures during the test cycle. But you can't do that in the aerospace industry. It requires a LOT more planning, lot more thoroughness in design, reviews and then only does the design go to manufacturing.

What many people also don't understand is how much dependency there is from HAL's side on governmental processes that are not designed for speed and rapid prototyping. Companies like KAI and TAI (which HAL is forever compared to) are not as hobbled by processes.

By God's grace, the Tejas program went as far as it did and the ancillary industries, the first, second and thir tier suppliers, the support infrastructure for development, testing, validation, etc. are all in place now. The experience is there. So things won't be as slow as they were for the Tejas and moreover the IAF is now embedded in programs, unlike how it was with Tejas where they for a long period just watched from the periphery, fully expecting the Tejas program to fail and then get an imported substitute instead.

 

[Azaad]

No, AMCA MK-1 will have an internal Bay. It was designed from the beginning to possess internal Weopons bays, and every Iteration of AMCA from MK-1, MK-2 and beyond will possess these internal weopon bays.

View attachment 240825

AMCA MK-1 will be a fifth generation aircraft in the category of F-35, F-22, J-20, Su-57. AMCA is projected to be a medium weight fighter, F-35 is a medium weight fighter, F-22, J-20, Su-57 are heavyweight fifth generation Stealth fighters.

The answer to whether the F-35 can or cannot supercruise is a topic of great debate.

What exactly is supercruise? In layman terms, Supercruise is defined as the feature/ability of an aircraft to be able to reach supersonic speeds without the use of an after burner. F-35 by this definition actually can supercruise, but for a very short period of time, basically a short dash. The F-35 can sustain over mach 1.2 for about 150 miles, 150 miles into kms => 241.402 kms.

So one cannot say that the F-35 cannot supercruise, it can but not as good as other planes which can maintain supercruise at higher mach speeds and longer durations as compared to Rafale. Actually Supercruise is really just a marketing term. I think AMCA will be like F-35 only, it will limited supercruise capabilities while not completely none at all. Everything depends on the AMCA's powerplant, let's see how that plays out.

This is the reason why not only Supercruise but also Supersonic flight is to be avoided by the F-35 in its current configuration at all costs for the negative RoI it yields .

The Pentagon will have to live with limits on F-35’s supersonic flights

The Navy's and Marine Corps' versions of the F-35 will have restrictions on how long they can fly at supersonic speeds because of a risk of damage to the tail section.

www.defensenews.com

 

[vampyrbladez]

 

[raju1982]

PMO must understand 2030 onwards Rafale will llst its supremecy. We need to plan ASAP.. today.

Turkey, SK, Japan all flying their 5th already.

 

[kamaal]

The recently launched 2 4.5 gen fighters shall not make our planners go on panick mode, these are nothing but low RCS planes with mediocre sensors. They'll take a decade to even become combat ready, especially the KAAN. The imported technology will always have some limitations and at best they can compete in export market. The advantage of 5th gen is complete stealth, strong AESA radar, Long BVR missile arsenal and most important super cruising capability. You miss one thing and you loose the battle, you copy F22 and F35 from outside but if you don't match the sensors and weapons then there is no point making these jets. Same case for AMCA MK1, it'll be just another 4.5 gen jet with low RCS.

This new 4.5 gen kids will be caught few kms before actual 5th gen and won't be able to perform operations, and with their low rcs design it'll be tough to dodge enemy weapons. If you can't make complete jet, don't start manufacturing them.

 

[raju1982]

The recently launched 2 4.5 gen fighters shall not make our planners go on panick mode, these are nothing but low RCS planes with mediocre sensors. They'll take a decade to even become combat ready, especially the KAAN. The imported technology will always have some limitations and at best they can compete in export market. The advantage of 5th gen is complete stealth, strong AESA radar, Long BVR missile arsenal and most important super cruising capability. You miss one thing and you loose the battle, you copy F22 and F35 from outside but if you don't match the sensors and weapons then there is no point making these jets. Same case for AMCA MK1, it'll be just another 4.5 gen jet with low RCS.

This new 4.5 gen kids will be caught few kms before actual 5th gen and won't be able to perform operations, and with their low rcs design it'll be tough to dodge enemy weapons. If you can't make complete jet, don't start manufacturing them.

Whh do you think Turkish companies cant match Indian in terms of sensors and weapons? Look at Byraktr drones sensors and weapon systems.

If these new jegs are caught few kms before 'actual' 5th gen still they have huge advantages over Tejas, Rafale or MKI. Kaan's RCS will be far less.

See the problem with Indian research mindset is they cannot think agile. They wamt everything together. Thats why Chinese are now decades ahead though we used to compare J10 with LCA.

There is no excise for Modi govt not to approve AMCA atleast 5 years back with F414 for protoypes. They approved Ghatak tbough Kaveri dry is being developed.

 

[Dr_Deep]

Look like a lot of folks here are salty over Turkey's new 5th Gen Kaan while our Vishwaguruland's AMCA project lagging. Turkey is NATO country, has been operating Western Platforms especially aircrafts for a long time. It started with small small things..like making sub-component and system for its existing fleet of F-16 and its degradation. Pakistan's F-16 was mostly upgraded using Turkish components when America sanctioned Pakistan. Their aerospace grew over the years followed by Drones then planes like Hurjet and now Kaan. Mostly importantly they allow private enterprises to come with solution rather a top-down govt PSU planning which is the case in India's HAL and ADA. The Govt PSUs have no urgency to expedite the projects and come with new ideas until being told so since there is little incentive to make profit as Govt will always come to their rescue. Now if the same design and contract was give to Indian Private Defence Players like TATA Aerospace or Kalyani they will get it done as well as scale up the production to make them export-ready along a decent maintenance ecosystem to make the customer ( Domestic IAF or International Air Forces ) happy and satisfy. The US is dominant in the MIC is because it allows private companies to compete and come with the best designs meeting the requirements. Also unlike Indian Military which pays lip service to Domestic Defence Manufacturers saying they will buy from them if they match their insane requirements only to select some foreign supplier the US has a law anything that is defense-related should be made in the USA. I think there should a law passed by the Parliament stating that the Military shall procure weapons and ammunition from a domestic/indigenous source only, it can only go for a foreign supplier if the requirement can't be found or matched by a domestic company or PSU after a careful Parliamentary Committee Review.
Right as per my knowledge its the current Defence Ministry policy for preferring Domestic Platform but not Law passed by Parliament. That means this policy can be reverse in future by a different defence minister..

 

[raju1982]

Look like a lot of folks here are salty over Turkey's new 5th Gen Kaan while our Vishwaguruland's AMCA project lagging. Turkey is NATO country, has been operating Western Platforms especially aircrafts for a long time. It started with small small things..like making sub-component and system for its existing fleet of F-16 and its degradation. Pakistan's F-16 was mostly upgraded using Turkish components when America sanctioned Pakistan. Their aerospace grew over the years followed by Drones then planes like Hurjet and now Kaan. Mostly importantly they allow private enterprises to come with solution rather a top-down govt PSU planning which is the case in India's HAL and ADA. The Govt PSUs have no urgency to expedite the projects and come with new ideas until being told so since there is little incentive to make profit as Govt will always come to their rescue. Now if the same design and contract was give to Indian Private Defence Players like TATA Aerospace or Kalyani they will get it done as well as scale up the production to make them export-ready along a decent maintenance ecosystem to make the customer ( Domestic IAF or International Air Forces ) happy and satisfy. The US is dominant in the MIC is because it allows private companies to compete and come with the best designs meeting the requirements. Also unlike Indian Military which pays lip service to Domestic Defence Manufacturers saying they will buy from them if they match their insane requirements only to select some foreign supplier the US has a law anything that is defense-related should be made in the USA. I think there should a law passed by the Parliament stating that the Military shall procure weapons and ammunition from a domestic/indigenous source only, it can only go for a foreign supplier if the requirement can't be found or matched by a domestic company or PSU after a careful Parliamentary Committee Review.
Right as per my knowledge its the current Defence Ministry policy for preferring Domestic Platform but not Law passed by Parliament. That means this policy can be reverse in future by a different defence minister..

All these issues can be changed if Modi wants and Doval advices. Isn't it?

 

[Super Flanker]

This is the reason why not only Supercruise but also Supersonic flight is to be avoided by the F-35 in its current configuration at all costs for the negative RoI it yields .

The Pentagon will have to live with limits on F-35’s supersonic flights

The Navy's and Marine Corps' versions of the F-35 will have restrictions on how long they can fly at supersonic speeds because of a risk of damage to the tail section.

www.defensenews.com

You are partially correct. The time limit for supersonic flight is only for the "B" and "C" variant. F-35A doesn't have any supersonic flight speed limit.

"The F-35C can fly at a top speed of Mach 1.3 for 50 cumulative seconds, while the F-35B is limited to 40 seconds at Mach 1.3. The version of the F-35 used by the U.S. Air Force, the F-35A, can fly without restriction on speed."

Why the Pentagon Limited the F-35’s Supersonic Flight

Critics say this cripples the jet's ability to fight.

www.popularmechanics.com

Besides the ability to go supersonic, while can prove to be very helpful in certain situations, it isn't as helpful as one may think. Going supersonic greatly increases the fuel rate consumption, and most of the time, pilots generally avoid going supersonic. Supercruise is better than conventional supersonic with after burners as the amount of fuel that gets consumed during supercruise is less than what would be consumed with AB, but supercruise isn't as fuel efficient as one may think, it still consumes much more fuel to supercruise than it does for subsonic flight.

A study by the USAF revealed that more than 90% of aerial engagements take place in subsonic speed regime.

 

[Blademaster]

How long can F-35A supercruise and engage in aerial combat thereafter? or supercruise until fuel supply is exhausted?