AMCA - Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (HAL)

[Indx TechStyle]

Defence Squad channel have reported that one of their representative have asked ADA official, and they replied that there is no program called AMCA Mk2 and ADA is separately working on sixth generation fighter program and technology under a separate project

Ghosh said the AMCA Mk1 will fly on the existing 90kN class engine (GE 414 engines from the US) and AMCA Mk2 will be powered by a stronger engine to be developed indigenously by GTRE in partnership with a foreign player.
Except ''Defence Squad channel'' everyone knows AMCA having 2 versions, AMCA Mk1 & AMCA Mk2.
There is a lots of difference b/w two, one is 5- gen fighter & other is 5.5 gen fighter. Mk2 is more stealthier, advanced engines,more advanced EW, 360 degree DAS etc....
Without engine, there is no sixth generation fighter program, means''[ ADA is separately working on sixth generation fighter program and technology under a separate project]'' its 5.5gen pgrm, ie AMCA mk2, which include some basic 6th gen features.

May be they repurposed Mk II program to turn into a 6th generation instead of an AMCA variant.

 

[NoobWannaLearn]

May be they repurposed Mk II program to turn into a 6th generation instead of an AMCA variant.

Yeah could be that we will never know until reported by some officials now

 

[Delta Squad]

May be they repurposed Mk II program to turn into a 6th generation instead of an AMCA variant.

Possible, I remember reading an interview of AMCA project director where he says all sixth generation jets are based on fifth generation platform. Maybe after they got AMCA Mk1 certified, they will build a sixth generation jet from that platform. In that case design like Tempest or FCAS can be expected.

 

[johnj]

May be they repurposed Mk II program to turn into a 6th generation instead of an AMCA variant.

Not happening unless the completion date is 2060 & jv with french [6 bil$] 120kn engine pgrm is a test.
6th gen need 6th gen engines
5th gen need 5th gen engines.[110~125 kn jv]
Ge 404 is 4th gen[f/a-18 a/b/c/d], & geb414 4.5 gen [f/a-18 sh]
Without 6th gen engines, how ADA can develop 6th gen fighter jet ?
Chalta-hai-policy, at the end GoI buys 5th[not sure] & 6th jets from foreign country. Good news- we will have both lca mk1 [gap filler] & lca mk2 [workforce & backbone], iff there is no US sanctions.

 

[johnj]

Possible, I remember reading an interview of AMCA project director where he says all sixth generation jets are based on fifth generation platform. Maybe after they got AMCA Mk1 certified, they will build a sixth generation jet from that platform. In that case design like Tempest or FCAS can be expected.

Not possible, you can add 6th gen features into 5th gen, & vice versa but can't convert one gen into another.
AMCA mk1 lacks 5th gen engine, only after mk2, they can inilitize new engine jv [15~20 bil $] and start r&d of 6th gen.

 

[Indx TechStyle]

Not happening unless the completion date is 2060 & jv with french [6 bil$] 120kn engine pgrm is a test.
6th gen need 6th gen engines
5th gen need 5th gen engines.[110~125 kn jv]
Ge 404 is 4th gen[f/a-18 a/b/c/d], & geb414 4.5 gen [f/a-18 sh]
Without 6th gen engines, how ADA can develop 6th gen fighter jet ?
Chalta-hai-policy, at the end GoI buys 5th[not sure] & 6th jets from foreign country. Good news- we will have both lca mk1 [gap filler] & lca mk2 [workforce & backbone], iff there is no US sanctions.

Not possible, you can add 6th gen features into 5th gen, & vice versa but can't convert one gen into another.
AMCA mk1 lacks 5th gen engine, only after mk2, they can inilitize new engine jv [15~20 bil $] and start r&d of 6th gen.

What's your definition of a 6th gen?

The most notable revolution in fighter technology only came with third generation.
Then, 4th generation were just an improvement on 3rd gen i.e. more reliable, better armed and longer range fighters with ability to dogfight.

Then, 5th generation emerged with key features as stealth, jamming and beyond visual range warfare.
Since 6th generation hasn't got a revolutionary definition yet, existing programs only indicate that 6th gen fighters are only highly improvised 5th generation fighters.

Russian proposal to make them unmanned (effectively making big UAVs) and western ones to making them with orbital cruise ability (ASAT available with 4th gen fighters too though), are all concepts. Don't think any clear definition for 6th gen will emerge before 2040 and won't have any striking improvements over 5th gen.

 

[johnj]

What's your definition of a 6th gen?

The most notable revolution in fighter technology only came with third generation.
Then, 4th generation were just an improvement on 3rd gen i.e. more reliable, better armed and longer range fighters with ability to dogfight.

Then, 5th generation emerged with key features as stealth, jamming and beyond visual range warfare.
Since 6th generation hasn't got a revolutionary definition yet, existing programs only indicate that 6th gen fighters are only highly improvised 5th generation fighters.

Russian proposal to make them unmanned (effectively making big UAVs) and western ones to making them with orbital cruise ability (ASAT available with 4th gen fighters too though), are all concepts. Don't think any clear definition for 6th gen will emerge before 2040 and won't have any striking improvements over 5th gen.

Thanks, you said everything, and your replay proves I'm right.
Currently only USA putting money into 6th gen pgrm, and even USA don't knows what the outcome will be, and there is no way ADA can initialize r&d phase of 6th gen.
Considering your comments - 6th gen pgrm only starts after 2045 with clear definition for 6th gen.
If you remove 6th gen fighter jet, then 4.5gen jets by 2023 - 2035 [lca mk2/tgdbf] & 5.5gen by 2040 [amca mk2].
Now if you consider 6th gen fighter jets, its entirely a new kind of fighter jets, which share common elements with 5gen, and like you said - Russians - hypersonic with near space capability, US - long range bomber escort , EU - to show their capability, Japan - super interceptor, Chinese - last time i read about supersonic autonomous drone, and all these are having unmanned feature, different countries - different jets.
US considering 6th gen features in f35 which include new engines, stealth, sensors, dew, etc & maybe unmanned feature also, and only happen after 2035. ADA don't have tech, exp & exploration like US defence firms, & IAF asks all different 6th gen jets fancy features into one after 2040.

 

[flanker99]

CCS Approval for 5th Gen Fighter Aircraft Any Day Now; IAF Likely to Have 7 AMCA Squadrons Initially
The Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) approval for the indigenous Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) — the fifth-generation twin engine fighter aircraft being developed for the Indian Air Force — is expected any day, News18 has learnt.

CCS Approval for 5th Gen Fighter Aircraft Any Day Now; IAF Likely to Have 7 AMCA Squadrons Initially© Provided by News18


Comparable to Global Fifth Gen Fighters

In india approval any means any month to any year

 

[Indx TechStyle]

Thanks, you said everything, and your replay proves I'm right.
Currently only USA putting money into 6th gen pgrm, and even USA don't knows what the outcome will be, and there is no way ADA can initialize r&d phase of 6th gen.
Considering your comments - 6th gen pgrm only starts after 2045 with clear definition for 6th gen.
If you remove 6th gen fighter jet, then 4.5gen jets by 2023 - 2035 [lca mk2/tgdbf] & 5.5gen by 2040 [amca mk2].
Now if you consider 6th gen fighter jets, its entirely a new kind of fighter jets, which share common elements with 5gen, and like you said - Russians - hypersonic with near space capability, US - long range bomber escort , EU - to show their capability, Japan - super interceptor, Chinese - last time i read about supersonic autonomous drone, and all these are having unmanned feature, different countries - different jets.
US considering 6th gen features in f35 which include new engines, stealth, sensors, dew, etc & maybe unmanned feature also, and only happen after 2035. ADA don't have tech, exp & exploration like US defence firms, & IAF asks all different 6th gen jets fancy features into one after 2040.

It doesn't refute that AMCA Mk II has been repurposed as a 6th generation fighter (regardless of timeline). Since, there is no concensus around world powers, all countries may end up making customized special mission aircraft according to their specific needs in name of 6th generation.

That doesn't kill my affirmation since open work on concept of 6th gen before 2030.
India might have been too late in 4th gen and a bit late in 5th gen. But it will certainly enter the 6th gen or whatever new era of warfare along with US/China.

In india approval any means any month to any year

No, it doesn't. Stop being an irritant please. If they have said approval anytime, means ground work, discussions etc. All have been completed with a concensus in favour of AMCA program and CCS is just going through documents.

 

[flanker99]

No, it doesn't. Stop being an irritant please. If they have said approval anytime, means ground work, discussions etc. All have been completed with a concensus in favour of AMCA program and CCS is just going through documents.

Lets have this discussion after amca has been approved by cabinet

 

[Indx TechStyle]

Lets have this discussion after amca has been approved by cabinet

Sure,
I still would suggest you to avoid posting anything that doesn't help it.

 

[flanker99]

Sure,
I still would suggest you to avoid posting anything that doesn't help it.

No offense but im sure y know it already but anything we say here doesn't have any effect on the project what so ever ...so not sure what u mean

 

[Indx TechStyle]

No offense but im sure y know it already but anything we say here doesn't have any effect on the project what so ever ...so not sure what u mean

Affects DFI quality project.

 

[flanker99]

Affects DFI quality project.

Im gonna have to call this nonsense...indian beurocracy is known for its delays and media for its unreliable reporting my comment was very much valid ..u dont like it is another matter

 

[Indx TechStyle]

Im gonna have to call this nonsense...indian beurocracy is known for its delays and media for its unreliable reporting my comment was very much valid ..u dont like it is another matter

Everyone knows that about Indian bureaucracy (though delays are common and even longer in case of other countries at these stages). But spamming it everywhere and showing everyone how frustrated you are, isn't a mature thing to do.
Whether you like forum members doing this nonsense all over forum purposelessly or nor, I leave the judgement on you.
Regards

 

[radion]

That doesn't kill my affirmation since open work on concept of 6th gen before 2030.
India might have been too late in 4th gen and a bit late in 5th gen. But it will certainly enter the 6th gen or whatever new era of warfare along with US/China.

Hold your horses now. We havent mastered 5th gen yet and even this 5th gen is gonna be completed properly in mid 2030's when we have eots and indigenous engine in mk2.We just started development for an indigenous in flight refueling system.Talking about deficiences, we are yet to solve the inadequate infrastructure in terms of wind tunnel testing and engine testing and i dont see much action yet towards addressing it.
So yeah entering the 6th gen warfare alongside those 2 countries that have everything set in place seems like copium to me unless goi decides to invest more money into r&d.

Also 2026 proto roll out is a safe bet

AMCA - Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (HAL)

Design integration and validation is being done by ADA. Once approved and certified by ADA these changes will be implemented by HAL on actual aircraft. The project is not completed by ADA perspective. I have confirmed this on ground. All design work w.r.t. to Tejas comes under the purview of...

defenceforumindia.com

 

[NoobWannaLearn]

Hold your horses now. We havent mastered 5th gen yet and even this 5th gen is gonna be completed properly in mid 2030's when we have eots and indigenous engine in mk2.We just started development for an indigenous in flight refueling system.Talking about deficiences, we are yet to solve the inadequate infrastructure in terms of wind tunnel testing and engine testing and i dont see much action yet towards addressing it.
So yeah entering the 6th gen warfare alongside those 2 countries that have everything set in place seems like copium to me unless goi decides to invest more money into r&d.

I wish someone will clear the situation up in next aero India about will there be an mk-2 or not

 

[johnj]

I wish someone will clear the situation up in next aero India about will there be an mk-2 or not

CCS Approval for 5th Gen Fighter Aircraft Any Day Now; IAF Likely to Have 7 AMCA Squadrons Initially
''Ghosh said the AMCA Mk1 will fly on the existing 90kN class engine (GE 414 engines from the US) and AMCA Mk2 will be powered by a stronger engine to be developed indigenously by GTRE in partnership with a foreign player.''
Now, if you consider 7 AMCA Squadrons, only two are mk1[ge414] & rest, mk2. [no mk2, no amca] & if mk2 is 6th gen, ioc by 2045+.

 

[MonaLazy]

x-posting

The specifics of the American offer become clearer.. somewhat!

Second Thoughts

The US has come back with its 2019 offer to jointly develop the AMCA jet engine with India shedding ‘export control’ concerns, , Magazine Issue 5 Nov 2022

www.businessworld.in

Second Thoughts
The US has come back with its 2019 offer to jointly develop the AMCA jet engine with India shedding ‘export control’ concerns


View attachment 180503

The US has revived an offer to cooperate with India on the development of jet engine technology which could be used to power the Mk-2 variant of India’s futuristic Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA).

General Electric (GE) of the US, one of the world’s leading manufacturers of jet engines, has submitted a proposal for the co-development of a 110 kN thrust engine with Indian agencies for the stealth fighter.

Technologies developed for a 116 kN thrust derivative of GE’s F414 engine will be the baseline in this offer of cooperation, Youngje Kim, GE Aviation’s vice-president for Asia-Pacific Region Military Systems Operation disclosed to BW Businessworld in an exclusive interview.

“All technologies previously asked for by the government of India will be offered,” Kim announced. India had earlier sought the core engine or hot section technology for jet engines under the India-US Defence Trade and Technology Initiative (DTTI) but was turned down.

Export control concerns

That effort failed after the US cited export control concerns in transferring this technology. A joint working group on jet engine technology under the DTTI framework was thereafter disbanded in October 2019.

The turnaround by the US now is total and coincides with two ongoing Indian fighter jet procurements from the global market and a take-off stage in indigenous development and production of potentially hundreds of fighter jets over the next two decades.

So, what drove the US capitulation? “The defence relationship with India is strategically important for the US. Things have changed,” said Kim, while indicating that cutting-edge capability of GE’s Jack Welch Technology Center at Bengaluru could be leveraged for the AMCA jet engine programme.

Industry watchers read the US about-turn as a bid to retain its lead in powering India’s indigenous fighter jet programme, a position it does not wish to cede to European engine makers. The Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas is powered by the GE-F404 engine, which has an 85kN thrust. India’s Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA)’s plans for the LCA Tejas Mk-2, AMCA Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft and the Twin Engine Deck-Based Fighter (TEDBF) are also closely woven around the 98kN thrust GE-F414 engine. Several hundred of these aircraft will be produced.

Only when the AMCA programme matures to the Mk-2 level does the ADA envisage switching from a GE-F414 to an indigenous engine with a higher 110kn thrust. It is for the development of that engine that India is seeking foreign collaboration. The AMCA Mk-2 production timelines commence around 2035. ADA also plans powering subsequent batches of the 26-ton TEDBF with the same indigenous engine as the AMCA’s.

The revival of the GE bid to co-develop the AMCA engine coincides with the development of an "Enhanced Performance Engine" or "EPE" variant of the GE-F414 for the US Navy’s F/A-18E/F Super Hornet and EA-18G Growler fleet. The EPE includes a new core and a redesigned fan and compressor, taking up the thrust by 18 per cent to 116kN. This matches or exceeds the requirements for the AMCA Mk-2.

Sources also disclosed that the EPE will have the same dimensions as the original GE-F414 variant. Hence, no modifications will be required to the air frame for fitment or retro-fitment on the initial variants of the AMCA, the TEDBF and even the Tejas Mk-2. India, of course, doesn’t seek a hand-me-down solution but wants to gain knowhow and know why through this programme to design, develop and produce jet engines on its own in the future.

Deal in the making

GE’s progress has been steady. “We expect a contract for close to 100 F414-GE-INS6 very soon,” Kim said. This follows the recent government approval for the LCA Mk-2 programme. A $716-million contract was signed by the engine company with Hindustan Aeronautics (HAL) in 2021 for 99 F404 engines as power plants for the 83 Mk 1A variants of the homegrown fighter ordered by the IAF in 2021. Earlier, at least 41 F404 engines were ordered between 2004 and 2007 for the first two squadrons of the LCA Mk 1.

Top military sources have confirmed to BW Businessworld that GE is being considered along with Safran of France and Rolls Royce of the UK for collaboration on the AMCA engine. These bids are being energetically supported by their respective governments.

“The options for a tie-up are open from among the three contenders. The Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) is the lead agency and a private Indian entity is also likely to be involved in the programme,” sources disclosed.

Industry is clear about the priorities. “The objective of this collaboration must be to develop capability to design and build engines on our own in future,” says industry veteran Commodore Anil Jai Singh (Retired). He also sees merit in standardising the engine inventory for military jets and wants economies of scale leveraged for better price. “If there’s a big inventory for GE engines, it makes sense sticking to it, if the condition for meaningful transfer of technology is met,” says Singh.

 

[Blademaster]

I think India should first make sure that its indigenous engine program with complete IPR is supported no matter what and then take on GE or Safran as insurance to ensure a readily available supply of engines. I prefer to go with Safran because it is sanction proof.