Alternatives to Dassault Rafale

[Hari Sud]

Re: Scrapping Rafale Deal Now Good Or Bad...

Bro Please dont call it LCA it has a Name "TEJAS"... Plz ....

Will call them Tejas.

 

[Pulkit]

Re: Scrapping Rafale Deal Now Good Or Bad...

Yes there Darling Baby is gonna cost us tooooooo much.... Why look outside when we have a option at home a great combination of Tejas and Sukhoi....
IAF I too proud to go for second hand aircraft (Just my view) ,though not sure of it as they need immediate replacements.

First of all after going through this thread i want to say something about the head line Scrapping Rafale deal now good or bad I'd say IAF will NOT Scrap Rafale since its darling baby. As for the other options it's all about the options Advance Super hornet, Rafale and euro fighter all have great future or will help India in other projects for eg Hint AMCA = Advance Super Hornet Ge-414 epe common engine angle or Euro fighter Captor-e Caesar = future Aew&cs India angle (where = means of great importance in short)

I personally really liked the Idea of inducting 2nd hand Euro fighters from Austria, Spain and other euro countries and then order go for latest /future typhoon models when economy is in full force but Hal and DRDO and all other desi tech transfer firms will cry out loud with red eyes....not to mention Rafale loving IAF.......Advance super hornet is not as costly as many say i believe it will be below 100 million dollar per jet price.......not to mention lower operational cost excellent serviceability and the experience gained will be of great help in AMCA program (my eye balls are in Ge-414 engines as they are in common with Tejas Mk 2 and Super Hornet blk3 and love a super cruise version for AMCA) but it's all about trusting the Americans which many in Indian traditional socialist Nehruvian MOD and bureaucrats don't bet on........Let's see John Mc Cains in town and will be surprised and love to see an American side of Modi which any western /American want to feel comfortable............

 

[debasree]

Re: Scrapping Rafale Deal Now Good Or Bad...

who call f-18 hornat,,& typhoon well dudes forger nuke test after urs harrier sea kings all sit idle for lack of spares we dont wanna repeat them..simple

 

[Pulkit]

Re: Scrapping Rafale Deal Now Good Or Bad...

who call f-18 hornat,,& typhoon well dudes forger nuke test after urs harrier sea kings all sit idle for lack of spares we dont wanna repeat them..simple

can you rephrase unable to get ur point...

 

[Pulkit]

Re: Scrapping Rafale Deal Now Good Or Bad...

MMRCA: UK pushes Eurofighter Typhoon | idrw.org

Scrap it.....

 

[SajeevJino]

Re: Scrapping Rafale Deal Now Good Or Bad...

.


Whole thread explains nothing.. why we scrap Rafale....?

Answer...India have no money ..

It's like investing in Dassault ..and Dassault invest back nearly 50% in India

 

[Pulkit]

Re: Scrapping Rafale Deal Now Good Or Bad...

If just in case you have not observed
Rafale has blocked alot of projects ..
The delays have increased the cost tremendiously...
TOT in our country has never been successful as it is never tranferred completely so when we have to develop it only why pay that a huge amount?
And yes Our Defense cannot afford it actually ...
You agree or not This is affect Tejas MK2 orders ,FGFA and might even hamper AMCA...
20 Billions out of 50 billion budget out of which 60%app goes for salaries and all(might be higher than this).
And then also left budget has to be shared.
If IAF decides to go for it then for next 10 years they will only be paying for these...


I am just poiting out that if it would have been kept till the initial order then it would have been better...

+

I am quite optimistic that Tejas MK2 will be able to match the features of Rafale.... so being optimistic and hawk at the same time....
I would like this deal scrapped....
The good thing could be smaller order of 3-4 squad and quicke induction along with a good number of Tejas Mk1 and Mk2(2018)...

I am not defense person just a tax payer ....
Do point out on which point you dont agree and why it should not be scrapped?

.


Whole thread explains nothing.. why we scrap Rafale....?

Answer...India have no money ..

It's like investing in Dassault ..and Dassault invest back nearly 50% in India

 

[abhi_the _gr8_maratha]

Re: Scrapping Rafale Deal Now Good Or Bad...

.


Whole thread explains nothing.. why we scrap Rafale....?

Answer...India have no money ..

It's like investing in Dassault ..and Dassault invest back nearly 50% in India

so do your post.
.
half money will get back to india. Ok agreed. But will it get back to indian defence budget? Or will it go to some private sectors? Now you will say we will get TOT of rafale but is it worth of 20 billion? Instead we can invest them in PAKFA and get a five gen design. How will a 260km radar range rafale will fight with 350km range radar of su35 or against 1500 4th gen fighters of china?
.
even rafale can't carry its payload till half china and can return to india. Its combat range is 1800. So why to invest 20 billion? We have aircraft carrier which can hide in japanese seas and carry operation where tejas mk2 can't reach that's 400-500km less combat range.
.
Just tell me one reson to invest 20 billion in rafale?

 

[Pulkit]

Re: Scrapping Rafale Deal Now Good Or Bad...

@right wing Go throw this thread you will find a few reason not to buy Rafale.....

 

[Head Hunter]

Re: Scrapping Rafale Deal Now Good Or Bad...

If just in case you have not observed
Rafale has blocked alot of projects

Name them ? (With Government sources supporting your claims)

The delays have increased the cost tremendiously

And who was responsible for the delays ? HAL or Dasault ?

TOT in our country has never been successful as it is never tranferred completely so when we have to develop it only why pay that a huge amount?

Name the projects where TOT were not successfull and the reasons why it was not transfered completly in those projects.

I am quite optimistic that Tejas MK2 will be able to match the features of Rafale.... so being optimistic and hawk at the same time....
I would like this deal scrapped....

You have been comparing Today's rafale with a future aircraft. What makes you think that Rafale won't be upgraded furthermore ?

 

[Pulkit]

Re: Scrapping Rafale Deal Now Good Or Bad...

IAF running away from FGFA... MK1 Orders was far too low as IAF wanted to keep the funds for Rafale...
I said obsevation If you disagree state your point..
Government sources :

From Small Arms to Sukhoi absorption by our defense industry has been poor.
FGFA issue is also an example as they couldnt handle that much tech...

Do you believe they will provide you each and every detail???

Yes I have been comparing that ...
When you design something you have a baseline around which it is designed and if you OBSERVE then you will notice it will be very close to Rafale...
Thats why you develop new weapon to replace old... you compare todays with future ...

We need rafale to counter China which it cannot as it wont be able to cover even half of the China and sukhoi will be doing that duty ...
If we need to provide support to sukhoi only then we can save this money get more sukhoi...

If you dont want all sukhoi fleet then order more Mk1 AND MK2 as supporters...
By then FGFA will be a reality and IA will be having no funds for it....
Rafale 126 will not be able to replenish or 200+ Migs ... and we also need to increase our fleet strength...
With all the money gone into 126 A/C how will you suggest we do that?
buy 84 rafale and with left money go for MK2 FGFA MK1 Sukhoi whichever you like ....

Quantity some times overpowers quality ... but here we have both Quanity and quality ...
Think .....

Name them ? (With Government sources supporting your claims)



And who was responsible for the delays ? HAL or Dasault ?


Name the projects where TOT were not successfull and the reasons why it was not transfered completly in those projects.



You have been comparing Today's rafale with a future aircraft. What makes you think that Rafale won't be upgraded furthermore ?

 

[Head Hunter]

Re: Scrapping Rafale Deal Now Good Or Bad...

IAF running away from FGFA... MK1 Orders was far too low as IAF wanted to keep the funds for Rafale...
I said obsevation If you disagree state your point..
Government sources :

IAF running away from FGFA When did that happen ?
IAF ordered 40 Tejas so as too save money for rafale Haha xD,
Didn't know that

From Small Arms to Sukhoi absorption by our defense industry has been poor.
FGFA issue is also an example as they couldnt handle that much tech...

So you believe that our industries cannot handle high tech but you still believe Mk 2 can match Rafale performance.
Anyway what TOT problems did teh "Small Arms" and "MKI" faced ?

Do you believe they will provide you each and every detail???

Yes. Why Not ?

Yes I have been comparing that ...
When you design something you have a baseline around which it is designed and if you OBSERVE then you will notice it will be very close to Rafale...
Thats why you develop new weapon to replace old... you compare todays with future ...

Tejas Mk II will replace Rafale ?

We need rafale to counter China which it cannot as it wont be able to cover even half of the China and sukhoi will be doing that duty ...
If we need to provide support to sukhoi only then we can save this money get more sukhoi...

If you dont want all sukhoi fleet then order more Mk1 AND MK2 as supporters...
By then FGFA will be a reality and IA will be having no funds for it....
Rafale 126 will not be able to replenish or 200+ Migs ... and we also need to increase our fleet strength...
With all the money gone into 126 A/C how will you suggest we do that?
buy 84 rafale and with left money go for MK2 FGFA MK1 Sukhoi whichever you like ....

Do you think that Tejas can help us counter PLAAF ?
You believe that One Rafale is as good as 3 Tejas. But 126 Rafales are not as good as 200 Mig-21s. So you mean that Tejas is inferior to Mig-21 ?

Anyway No sane military commander will send his pilots too bomb targets beyond a thousand Km into enemy territory. "So your will not reach half of China" argument is useless

Quantity some times overpowers quality ... but here we have both Quanity and quality ...
Think .....

"Quality overpowers Quality"
The IAF thought the same in '65. We know what happened.

 

[Pulkit]

Re: Scrapping Rafale Deal Now Good Or Bad...

The statement of IAF cryin that FGFA is not delivering what promised was just a tactic to force govt to speed up Rafale..
And Yes Order of Tejas was kept limited due to the same reason to push Rafale...

Yes MK2 can match Rafale in all variants ....
Yes Tejas Mk2 can counter PLAAF with Sukhoi and FGFA at its side... Dont you think it can?
126 Rafale will not be inducted in 1 day or 1 year but we are in ugent need to retire migs .... For the sake of our pilots only..
out of 3 A/C accidents in last 5 years 27 were migs....
replacing them will not help us reach the allocated number of 42 Squad ..in a Two front war we do need that much fleet....

+
Which country having war at two fronts will rely on 100% foreign products?
sanctions+no supply during war on and on....



On your range argument one of the drawbacks pointed by IAF in Tejas MK1 while going for MK2 was range .... so it does matter....
If it doesnt then whats the use of rafale or even sukhoi they are for deep peneteration role only...

IAF running away from FGFA When did that happen ?
IAF ordered 40 Tejas so as too save money for rafale Haha xD,
Didn't know that



So you believe that our industries cannot handle high tech but you still believe Mk 2 can match Rafale performance.
Anyway what TOT problems did teh "Small Arms" and "MKI" faced ?



Yes. Why Not ?



Tejas Mk II will replace Rafale ?



Do you think that Tejas can help us counter PLAAF ?
You believe that One Rafale is as good as 3 Tejas. But 126 Rafales are not as good as 200 Mig-21s. So you mean that Tejas is inferior to Mig-21 ?

Anyway No sane military commander will send his pilots too bomb targets beyond a thousand Km into enemy territory. "So your will not reach half of China" argument is useless



"Quality overpowers Quality"
The IAF thought the same in '65. We know what happened.

 

[SajeevJino]

Re: Scrapping Rafale Deal Now Good Or Bad...

so do your post.
.
half money will get back to india. Ok agreed. But will it get back to indian defence budget? Or will it go to some private sectors? Now you will say we will get TOT of rafale but is it worth of 20 billion? Instead we can invest them in PAKFA and get a five gen design. How will a 260km radar range rafale will fight with 350km range radar of su35 or against 1500 4th gen fighters of china?
.
even rafale can't carry its payload till half china and can return to india. Its combat range is 1800. So why to invest 20 billion? We have aircraft carrier which can hide in japanese seas and carry operation where the has mk2 can't reach that's 400-500km less combat range.
.
Just tell me one reson to invest 20 billion in rafale?

for @Pulkit @Head Hunter gives proper Reply ..for you It's my time


The Russians nor no one will give their weapons at free of cost but most nations just did invest back of Defence agreements

don't know where the Dassault invest it ..but it should be in India

Rafale never go head to head fight against Chinese flankers.

are you talking about LCA from our aircraft is better idea to strike Chinese strong holds .ever heard about Frigates and air defence Destroyers

go and read something about coastal air Warfare

 

[Pulkit]

Re: Scrapping Rafale Deal Now Good Or Bad...

for @Pulkit @Head Hunter gives proper Reply ..for you It's my time


The Russians nor no one will give their weapons at free of cost but most nations just did invest back of Defence agreements

don't know where the Dassault invest it ..but it should be in India

Rafale never go head to head fight against Chinese flankers.

are you talking about LCA from our aircraft is better idea to strike Chinese strong holds .ever heard about Frigates and air defence Destroyers

go and read something about coastal air Warfare

@abhi_the _gr8_maratha Dont mind bro but I wanna counter this..

Sanjeev I hope You dont mind me replying ...

Russians ... Who else would provide you weapons on lease/rent? Not free definitively not sometimes expensive aswell but who else will share such technology with you.....????
Rafale is just minting money...
Russians have lobbies but they wont put sanctions on you...

Who vetoed for you in UN?
Who supports you?
America????

Tejas with a mix of Mig 29 K will be quite lethal ....

 

[abhi_the _gr8_maratha]

Re: Scrapping Rafale Deal Now Good Or Bad...

you didn't get it. @SajeevJino , we can have 2 tejas mk1 and one mk2 in cost of rafale and yet we will leave with much money. 126 vs 1500. Or 400 vs 1500. On both occasion we will have 4.5 gen fighters. And we can have 126 mk2 similar to level of rafale.
.
rafale is a plane to fill gap till fgfa,amca. So by chance if j20 attacks a squadron of rafale. Loss will be 3.6 billion. And on other hand about tejas it will be 300 million.
.
and I am not talking about lca against chinese fighters but tejas versus chinese fighter. I don't think the french lobby inside you will be happy to listen it . And please don't talk of range and payload like you always said cause you know nothing except this.

 

[SajeevJino]

Re: Scrapping Rafale Deal Now Good Or Bad...

@abhi_the _gr8_maratha Dont mind bro but I wanna counter this..

Sanjeev I hope You dont mind me replying ...

Russians ... Who else would provide you weapons on lease/rent? Not free definitively not sometimes expensive aswell but who else will share such technology with you.....????
Rafale is just minting money...
Russians have lobbies but they wont put sanctions on you...

Who vetoed for you in UN?
Who supports you?
America????

Tejas with a mix of Mig 29 K will be quite lethal ....

go on No problem..

In the Planet not only the Russian gives their Hardware to their customer.. lot of other countries too gives it's best weapons to their friendlies...

Believe it or not Israel have some Raptors


If you keep your hands with the Chinese they too will save you in such conditions


yet again Tejas need a another 4+ Gen fighter to survive or carry attack missions

 

[SajeevJino]

Re: Scrapping Rafale Deal Now Good Or Bad...

you didn't get it. @SajeevJino , we can have 2 tejas mk1 and one mk2 in cost of rafale and yet we will leave with much money. 126 vs 1500. Or 400 vs 1500. On both occasion we will have 4.5 gen fighters. And we can have 126 mk2 similar to level of rafale.
.
rafale is a plane to fill gap till fgfa,amca. So by chance if j20 attacks a squadron of rafale. Loss will be 3.6 billion. And on other hand about tejas it will be 300 million.
.
and I am not talking about lca against chinese fighters but tejas versus chinese fighter. I don't think the french lobby inside you will be happy to listen it . And please don't talk of range and payload like you always said cause you know nothing except this.

believe me buy some Super Tucano's it's cost less than our Tejas ..can do major missions without need of Escorts

 

[abhi_the _gr8_maratha]

Re: Scrapping Rafale Deal Now Good Or Bad...

believe me buy some Super Tucano's it's cost less than our Tejas ..can do major missions without need of Escorts

is it a 4.5 gen fighter? Is it indigenous? Is it multirole?
.
though I am not surprised by your reply. This is what you always do when you are pointless.

 

[Anony86]

Why Rafale is a Big Mistake

Why would India buy the Rafale combat aircraft rejected by every other interested country—Brazil, Canada, the Netherlands, Norway, South Korea, Singapore, and even the cash-rich but not particularly discriminating Saudi Arabia and Morocco?

The French foreign minister Laurent Fabius's one-point agenda when he visited New Delhi was to seal the deal for Rafale, a warplane apparently fitting IAF's idea of a Medium Multi-role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) in the service's unique typology, which includes "light" and "heavy" fighter planes as well, used by no other air force in the world. Alas, the first whiff of corruption led the previous defence minister, A K Antony, to seize up and shut shop, stranding the deal at the price negotiation committee stage. It is this stoppage Fabius sought to unclog.

France's desperation is understandable. Absent the India deal, the Rafale production line will close down, the future of its aerospace sector will dim, and the entire edifice of French industrial R&D sector based on small and medium-sized firms—a version of the enormously successful German "Mittelstand" model—engaged in producing cutting-edge technologies could unravel, and grease France's slide to second-rate technology power-status.

More immediately, it will lead to a marked increase in the unit cost of the aircraft—reportedly of as much as $5-$10 million dollars to the French Air Force, compelling it to limit the number it inducts. With no international customers and France itself unable to afford the pricey Rafale, the French military aviation industry will be at a crossroads. So, for Paris a lot is at stake and in India the French have found an easy mark, a country willing to pay excessively for an aircraft the IAF can well do without.

Consider the monies at stake. Let's take the example of Brazil, our BRICS partner. For 36 Rafales the acquisition cost, according to Brazilian media, was $8.2 billion plus an additional $4 billion for short-period maintenance contracts, amounting to nearly $340 million per aircraft in this package and roughly $209 million as the price tag for a single Rafale without maintenance support. Brazil insisted on transfer of technology (ToT) and was told it had to pay a whole lot extra for it, as also for the weapons for its Rafales. But the Brazilian air force had doubts about the quality of the AESA (active electronically scanned array) radar enabling the aircraft to switch quickly from air-to-air to air-to-ground mode in flight, and about the helmet-mounted heads-up-display. Too high a price and too many problems convinced the government of president Dilma Rousseff that the Rafale was not worth the trouble or the money and junked the deal, opting for the Swedish Gripen NG instead.

During the Congress party's rule the Indian government did not blink at the prospective bill for the Rafale, which more than doubled from $10 billion in 2009 to some $22 billion today, and which figure realistically will exceed $30 billion, or $238 million per aircraft, at a minimum. But India, unbeknownst to most of us, is apparently a terribly rich country, with money to burn! Meanwhile, the United Kingdom, an apparently poorer state or at least one more careful with its money, is blanching at the $190 million price tag for each of the 60 Lockheed F-35Bs (vertical take-off, technologically more complex, variant of the air force model)—a full generation ahead of the Rafale—ordered for the first of the Royal Navy's Queen Elizabeth-class 65,000-tonne aircraft carriers.

The prohibitive cost of the French aircraft supposedly made finance-cum-defence minister Arun Jaitley apprehensive. He did the right thing, as is rumoured, of revising the order downwards from 126 aircraft to 80 or so Rafales. The IAF headquarters pre-emptively acquiesced in the decision to save the deal. However, if this change was affected in the hope of proportionately reducing the cost, it will be belied. Because in contracts involving high-value combat aircraft, the size of the order does not much affect the unit price, the cost of spares and service support, and of ToT! This is evident from the rough estimates of the per aircraft cost to Brazil of $209 million for 36 Rafales compared with the $238 million for 126 of the same aircraft to India!

Because New Delhi has been inclined to make India a military "great power" on the basis of imported armaments—a policy that's a boon to supplier states as it generates employment and new technologies in these countries, and sustains their defence industries, a confident French official told me with respect to another deal that "India will pay the price". Considering the various negatives of the proposed deal and the long-term national interest Jaitley would do well to nix the Rafale transaction altogether.

The bureaucratic interest of the IAF prompts it to exaggerate wrong threats and talk of declining fighter assets. But it will not tell the defence minister about the logistics hell routinely faced by frontline squadrons in operations owing to the mindboggling diversity of combat aircraft in its inventory, a problem only the Rafale acquisition will exacerbate and, hence, about the urgent need to rationalise the force structure, ideally to Su-30s, the indigenous Tejas Mk-1 for short-range air defence, Tejas Mk-II as MMRCA, and the Su-50 PAK FA as fifth-generation fighter. Nor will the department of defence production officials disclose to Jaitley that the ToT provisions in arms contracts are a fraudulent farce because, while the foreign suppliers pocket billions of dollars, no core technologies, such as source codes (millions of lines of software) and flight control laws, are ever transferred. And that the local defence industry monopolised by defence public sector units (DPSUs) is incapable of absorbing and innovating even such technology as is, in fact, relayed to it because it only assembles aircraft from imported kits.

Terminating the Rafale deal will be disruptive but sending the message to the military, the DPSUs, the defence ministry bureaucracy, and foreign companies salivating for rich, one-sided, contracts that the Narendra Modi government is determined to make a new start and conduct defence business differently, is more important.


Why Rafale is a Big Mistake - The New Indian Express