Alternatives to Dassault Rafale

[Neo]

Re: Scrapping Rafale Deal Now Good Or Bad...

A wise option would have been to allow Saab to acquire 51% (demanded by saab) share in Tejas and co-develop the new design presented by them. As per study and development prognose the MK 2 could still be ready in 2018 at less than half the cost of the Rafale with only 5.5 hours of maintenance per flying hour compared to 15 of Rafale and operational costs of $4.700 against $15.000 respectively.

 

[debasree]

Re: Scrapping Rafale Deal Now Good Or Bad...

cancelling deal isnt sollution rafale is battle proven tejas is not..& besides its of anotyher class more payload more range..we dire need of it..

 

[Pulkit]

Re: Scrapping Rafale Deal Now Good Or Bad...

Yes, for AMCA we can wait for next 20 years(first squadron). 15 years would be the time when probably its gets to IOC standard. Engine issue probably still be there.

Who says Tejas is sanction proof. One fine day Unkil decides and turn off the engine supply. There will no Tejas flying for next 5 years, Even if we try and get another engine. Don't be too hopeful of our kaveri engine in its current status. Anyway including Tejas in large numbers might give advantage in this decade, but not in future, where Rafale will be more useful and IAF will be inducting the Tejas in large number anyway though bit late. I'm not discounting the Importance of Tajas and inducting them in large numbers, But I was saying the Maybe IAF has the plan in mind to get Rafales now and pay for it untill MK2/FGFA is available and then Get them. AMCA/AURA will come much after that and by that time they would have already paid for MK2 and FGFAs(most of it anyway). They will have their share of Budget and they will get the money from their budget. For ACC and subs navy will have to pay from their budget.

As I said we can get the 100 MK1 by 2020, but newly added Rafale will have better future and IAF will get the Tejas in big number anyway after 2020. So only extra advantage(of Tejas) will be for next a few years. But Rafale will present bigger threat to China for next 2 decades. Also I really doubt your 40% availability claim. We are getting the sufficient TOTs, So if any issue with the availability, HAL should be responsible in most of the cases.

May be IAF wants to spend as much as it can from its budget, does not want the money to shift to Navy etc. If IAF doesn't order Rafale, the budget for Mk1 will hardly be 2-3 Billions $ for next a few years. So govt may divert the IAF's money to Navy/IA.

Bhai mere HOW ARE YOU PLANNING TO COVER THE DECREASE OF ALL THE MIGS STILL IN SERVICE...
BY ORDERIN TEJAS MK1 ATLEAST SOME COMPENSATION WILL BE MADE..... WE ARE ALREADY TO A LOW LEVEL OF 32 ... 42 IS ALLOWED NUMBER OF SQUAD 39.5 SHOULD BE MUST .... SO EVEN IF WE ADD TEJAS TODAY OPEN SECOND ASSEMBLY LINE WE WILL BE ABLE TO COVERUP.... ITS NOT ABOUT MONEY ENTIRELY... BUT RAFALE FOR 20BILLION(TODAY READ 15BILLION SOMEWHERE) IS STILL TOO EXPENSIVE...
+
AS YOU MUST ALSO HEARED THAT IF THE PROMISES ARE MET THEN TEJAS MK2 WILL BE AS GOOD AS RAFALE AND WITH BETTER RADAR AND ELECTRONICS.

TEJAS IS NOT 100% INDIAN BUT IN THE NEXT 5-10 YEARS WE DO SEE IT CLOSE TO 95% ONCE ENGINE IS DEVELOPED AND THAT TOO IS NOT TOO FAR.....

 

[abhi_the _gr8_maratha]

Re: Scrapping Rafale Deal Now Good Or Bad...

1 John Rambo = 100s of baddies

actually you are a baby hunted by foreign lobby...... Right now tejas have many advantage over rafale like more powerful radar, lower rcs, gold tint canopy, and in future if more specs are out, I am confident they will be better than rafale.

 

[abhi_the _gr8_maratha]

Re: Scrapping Rafale Deal Now Good Or Bad...

A wise option would have been to allow Saab to acquire 51% (demanded by saab) share in Tejas and co-develop the new design presented by them. As per study and development prognose the MK 2 could still be ready in 2018 at less than half the cost of the Rafale with only 5.5 hours of maintenance per flying hour compared to 15 of Rafale and operational costs of $4.700 against $15.000 respectively.

right now, ew suite in progress, radar 1/8 operational, design ready and many critical technologies like engine, fly by wire etc. Are ready.
.
for tejas mk1 much time was gone in engine selection and fly by wire but it is not a problem now. So SAAB will have a job of assembling at a cost of 51% share when their own gripen was collaboration with american firms, it crashed while trials and crash was simple landing, and NG is just a prototype.
.
so saab proposal was not a worth of considering

 

[Pulkit]

Re: Scrapping Rafale Deal Now Good Or Bad...

@Neo boss i thought same but my reason was different but if you do a bit more research apart from one or two things we dont need saab...

right now, ew suite in progress, radar 1/8 operational, design ready and many critical technologies like engine, fly by wire etc. Are ready.
.
for tejas mk1 much time was gone in engine selection and fly by wire but it is not a problem now. So SAAB will have a job of assembling at a cost of 51% share when their own gripen was collaboration with american firms, it crashed while trials and crash was simple landing, and NG is just a prototype.
.
so saab proposal was not a worth of considering

 

[Pulkit]

Re: Scrapping Rafale Deal Now Good Or Bad...

cancelling deal isnt sollution rafale is battle proven tejas is not..& besides its of anotyher class more payload more range..we dire need of it..

Rafale is not that prooven .... agreed with payload and range but thats already discussed... with mk2 round the corner thats also secondary...

 

[abhi_the _gr8_maratha]

Re: Scrapping Rafale Deal Now Good Or Bad...

those bots who says tejas not battle proven and rafale is then f22 is not battle proven and hf24 marut is. Then why everyone calls f22 best of times?

 

[Pulkit]

Re: Scrapping Rafale Deal Now Good Or Bad...

Xcactly which other country would have done so many trials even when you know the actual issues only arise while operating and again you will seek time for remedy...
10 years to test flights and still you dont trust it... many of the A/C in mmRCA were not even 100% ready... still they were entertained...
Bro its foreign product these rules only apply not them ...
Not desi only vedeshi....

those bots who says tejas not battle proven and rafale is then f22 is not battle proven and hf24 marut is. Then why everyone calls f22 best of times?

 

[debasree]

Re: Scrapping Rafale Deal Now Good Or Bad...

rafale is battle proven over..libya ..dude..stop zingoism..

 

[abhi_the _gr8_maratha]

Re: Scrapping Rafale Deal Now Good Or Bad...

rafale is battle proven over..libya ..dude..stop zingoism..

in libya, it was having a pesa radar, having range of 130 km. Msa radar of tejas mk1 have 150km range.
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in libya war, rafale doesn't fired meteor, its prime bvr. It just fired it in 2012 first.
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tell me what SAM it faced or what jets was used by its enemy?
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even hf24 marut is battle proven so does it is better than f22 which never saw face of battle?
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since you are so interested in battle tested fighters why every nation invest in new technology? Instead they can use WW2 battle tested fighters?

 

[Pulkit]

Re: Scrapping Rafale Deal Now Good Or Bad...

in libya, it was having a pesa radar, having range of 130 km. Msa radar of tejas mk1 have 150km range.
.
in libya war, rafale doesn't fired meteor, its prime bvr. It just fired it in 2012 first.
.
tell me what SAM it faced or what jets was used by its enemy?
.
even hf24 marut is battle proven so does it is better than f22 which never saw face of battle?
.
since you are so interested in battle tested fighters why every nation invest in new technology? Instead they can use WW2 battle tested fighters?

@debasree Aircrafts need to be battle ready Rafale might have that advantage but you dont know how will it perform here in our environmental conditions... @abhi correct right ... and i do belive if there would have been no sanctions marut would have been n service quite for a longer duration....

 

[abhi_the _gr8_maratha]

Re: Scrapping Rafale Deal Now Good Or Bad...

again , rafale doesn't have HMDS, how it can take A2A mission?

 

[Pulkit]

Re: Scrapping Rafale Deal Now Good Or Bad...

MoD mulls downsizing Rafale contract | idrw.org
If thsi is true then its a good sign ... great...

 

[debasree]

Re: Scrapping Rafale Deal Now Good Or Bad...

https://www.google.co.in/url?sa=t&r...RtQHJ_WWMRP9yf4w&bvm=bv.70138588,d.cGU,,sorry dude its 126 up & running battle proven dont use vintage tech..rafale have larger pay load..larger range its basically fround attack aircraft..

 

[Pulkit]

Re: Scrapping Rafale Deal Now Good Or Bad...

https://www.google.co.in/url?sa=t&r...RtQHJ_WWMRP9yf4w&bvm=bv.70138588,d.cGU,,sorry dude its 126 up & running battle proven dont use vintage tech..rafale have larger pay load..larger range its basically fround attack aircraft..

I really want to kow on what basis is it battle prooven ....
If battle prooven is the only criteria of selecting an aircraft then F22 or F35 is a failure...and there should be no need to develop new aircrafts...

In that case we can go for all sukhoi MKI entire fleet ... Air superiority I believe u will also agree Sukhoi is better....
Just as you compared payload and range...


and on top of it costs lesser+made in India...

Buying 126 Rafale when you have so many A/C coming up in next 5-10 years is not a great decision...

The reason given in 2012 was that it will help replacement of MIGs in combination with Tejas but that will not happen as of today ... Migs will be goen way before A entire squad of rafale enters service....

We need Tejas... Tejas MK1 is fit to replace Rafale... we cud have easily gone for 100+ mk1 and later upgrade them... and rest mk2...
along with 4 squad of rafale..... they are stubborn they also know teh deal will bring a large number of projects at hault.... still they wanna go ahead with it,,,, donno why....

 

[Hari Sud]

Re: Scrapping Rafale Deal Now Good Or Bad...

We have Sukhois, LCA 1, upgraded Mirages till 2020. Ramp up their acquisition. Pay for their technology to learn upgrades and make parts in India. That will let other defence deals to go thru.

Work harder on LCA 2. Also see what India could do on our joint venture with Russia on stealth fighter. The stealth fighter is the future. It is an Indian solution for a pressing problem.

 

[Pulkit]

Re: Scrapping Rafale Deal Now Good Or Bad...

We have Sukhois, LCA 1, upgraded Mirages till 2020. Ramp up their acquisition. Pay for their technology to learn upgrades and make parts in India. That will let other defence deals to go thru.

Work harder on LCA 2. Also see what India could do on our joint venture with Russia on stealth fighter. The stealth fighter is the future. It is an Indian solution for a pressing problem.

Bro Please dont call it LCA it has a Name "TEJAS"... Plz ....

 

[roma]

Re: Scrapping Rafale Deal Now Good Or Bad...

it's a leadership-management problem which i hope NAMO will put straight . Mig 21 should have been phased out gradually since completion of 20 years service - that would have been in the 1990's . Instead they are now 40 plus years into service and causing incalculable loss of pilots ....and it takes 25 years or even a bit more to produce a pilot from birth. The loss to the nation would be a few times the entire cost of the Rafael deal, but no one takes that cost of pilot's life and training into account and the establishment continues to pretend that the mig21 is a sound aircraft. Does Russia still use mig 21 ?
The day that namo or anyone else changes and improves the drdo tender and acquisition process is a day that should be celebrated second in importance to Republic day !
With all these delays in acquiring the Rafael the whole thing needs to be re-looked at considering the other alternatives, mainly that Tejas is now in the mass manufactuinrg pipeline ( is it?) .

What a mess COngo has left us with !

 

[Shirman]

Re: Scrapping Rafale Deal Now Good Or Bad...

First of all after going through this thread i want to say something about the head line Scrapping Rafale deal now good or bad I'd say IAF will NOT Scrap Rafale since its darling baby. As for the other options it's all about the options Advance Super hornet, Rafale and euro fighter all have great future or will help India in other projects for eg Hint AMCA = Advance Super Hornet Ge-414 epe common engine angle or Euro fighter Captor-e Caesar = future Aew&cs India angle (where = means of great importance in short)

I personally really liked the Idea of inducting 2nd hand Euro fighters from Austria, Spain and other euro countries and then order go for latest /future typhoon models when economy is in full force but Hal and DRDO and all other desi tech transfer firms will cry out loud with red eyes....not to mention Rafale loving IAF.......Advance super hornet is not as costly as many say i believe it will be below 100 million dollar per jet price.......not to mention lower operational cost excellent serviceability and the experience gained will be of great help in AMCA program (my eye balls are in Ge-414 engines as they are in common with Tejas Mk 2 and Super Hornet blk3 and love a super cruise version for AMCA) but it's all about trusting the Americans which many in Indian traditional socialist Nehruvian MOD and bureaucrats don't bet on........Let's see John Mc Cains in town and will be surprised and love to see an American side of Modi which any western /American want to feel comfortable............