Alternatives to Dassault Rafale

[ersakthivel]

Re: Why Rafale is a Big Mistake

No, it isn't, smartass.

https://www.thalesgroup.com/en/cont...ture-india-civilian-and-select-defence-radars


This is offsets, dumbass.

RIL-Dassault to make business jets


This is offsets, dumbass.

BEL, French firm Sagem to work in production of naval parts - Economic Times


This is offsets, dumbass.

So, large radars, the Falcon business jet and naval instruments, the IAF will put all of this on Rafale and fly it around. How about stop being a dumbass now?

There are tons more in the offing that we do not yet know of.

The 50% offsets is independent of the Rafale deal. The manufacturing and setting up of infrastructure is part of the Rafale's main contract, not offsets.

There were no offsets in the MKI deal, dumbass. Who do you think setup the manufacturing facilities in India? It was Sukhoi.



Who gives a flying F. They wanted a negotiations advantage which didn't work out. They are going to comply with all the rules we have placed. That's why only cost negotiations are taking place today while all the other reports have been submitted already.



I could smoke anything I want and still make smarter comments.

So you tell me how much will France earn?



We are.



Arab countries are dumb. Don't compare the two.

And that's 61 Million GBP, dumbass. That's $100 Million per jet without ToT and industrial production and even maintenance. The maintenance contract was separate and costed another 1.8 Billion GBP until 2017. This is not even counting the inflation rate of 2-3% on the contract which is the norm. Calculate that for 10 years since the deal was signed in 2005 and then compare that to Rafale.

That gave me 82 Million GBP for each aircraft or $137 Million per jet. $137 Million without ToT, industrial production and maintenance. Hil-----ing-larious.



Yeah, it does. Since you are barking up the wrong tree, throwing completely wrong figures around.

Go look up the Swiss air force assessment on Rafale and why they put the jet above Typhoon in every parameter. Jesus F Christ!



This is how business works, dumbass. When companies invest in India, they do so for the sake of profits. The MRCA deal forces the company to invest in India.

Maybe the Americans were stupid when Intel setup a R&D facility in Bangalore. Maybe the Japanese are idiots for wanting to invest $90 Billion in infrastructure in the country.

Maybe Amazon are run by a bunch of idiots since they want to invest $2 Billion in the country.

Oh, look. It's the Chinese. The biggest bunch of idiots among the lot. They only want to finance 30% of our infrastructure projects and want to invest at least $300 Billion.

Dassault seem to be looking more and more like an idiot since they will be investing only 50% of the MRCA deal.

France is sooooooo stupid. I never realized until today.

However hard we bark at the right tree we are not going to get any smart ass tech from these TOTs.

All these TOT s are nothing but gold plated screw driver types!!!!!!!

Just like the SCB tech given to HAL for SU-30 MKI engine(unrelentingly parroted by none other than you for more than 3 years!!!!) .

Still HAL and IAF can not identify the problem after 20 years of TOT and jacking off AL-31 engines after just 700 flight hours ,

instead of promised thousands of hours,

and instructing pilots to how to land with one engine,

while standing at the russian door for a fix shows how worthless deep TOTs really are.

RIL has 5 decades of experience in fighter building already filled to their nose with 3rd gen fighter tech perhaps. SO we can all say that with this Dassault-RIL agreement India will get all the tech needed to build 4.5th gen fighter!!!!!!!

What is going to happen in these TOT JV BS is black boxes with most important items will arrive from france with local guys given some instructions about what is upside and what is downside nothing more.
All non essential stuff that we can make with present tech will be made here .

Optimum filling of fuel limiting the range to 1500 Kms? Well a dassault salesman could be proud of the statement!!!!!

Huh? I don't think you understand what that means.

Efficiency is the key here. They don't fill the tanks up to the brim during such ferry range flights where fuel is preserved to the maximum. Fuel is managed so it provides the best performance figures possible.

They did not fill all of the aircraft up and then empty the tank before refueling again. They would keep around, say, 75%, use up enough fuel up to 50 or 40% and then refuel again to get it back to 75% and repeat the process 4 more times.

In actual missions, the refueling process would be different depending on the missions.

Naturally, in DPS missions the range is much smaller, said to be 3600 Km in a hi-lo-hi profile.

A nice story to write. But I know better from your history of busted claims ,what will be the worth of this story,

whatever the optimum flying conditions if you add weapons worth their price, and do a lo lo penetration with reservation for Ab thrusts and close combat and take off needs, the result will be the same

Even if we believe such no source fairy tales the, 3600 Km hi-lo-hi missions exist in libiya and mali where open skies with no enemy air defence spreads for a vast expanse of 1000s of Km.

But on india -pak borders and india-china borders enemy air defence is just a couple of hundreds of KM away.

SO practcially those much vaunted 3600 Km range flaunted by forum trolls has no relevance to two front wars or in Tibet deep strikes.

Reality is sobering. As I said before in lo-lo penetration flight the differnece between tejas and rafale combat range will hug a figure closer to their difference fuel fraction ratio.

Dangling more and more external tanks and stuff will add to immense drag in lo-lo strikes . So the Rafale has thrice the range of tejas like statements made by people is just irrelevant in indian air space where enemy air defences are just next door.

 

[ersakthivel]

Re: Why Rafale is a Big Mistake

Trusting HAL, ADA and DRDO's timelines would an even worse mistake. Whatever can go wrong in their projects, inevitably goes wrong and yet they have the gall to repeatedly lie about their project deadlines, even at stages when the outcome should be clearly visible with no 'technological' challenges left (ie Tejas serial production roll out). Lies, damn lies and Tejas deadlines.

bribes, commissions , disconcerting ASR revisions , Delayed funding in torturous patches is more of a reason for delays in DDO programs related to items where foreigners are ready with competing products,
But when it comes to projects where there is no foreign offerings like prithvi, Agni, Brahmos, nag, sagarika and the various K series sub launched missiles, DRDO programs work like clock work!!!!

And the users are always satisfied with the stuff.

people making such allegations often fail to take into account that law of averages for failures and success can not offer such a stark different results to different projects.

GSQR for Arjun revised 4 times,

Even sitara's ASR upgraded forcing for the spurious mid program engine change drowning the project,

new demands from IAF resulting in FSDE phase-2 in 2004 where entire wing and avionics were redesigned and refuelling probes added,

Demands for higher range IR seeker for Nag reducing it to lesser production order numbers.

And stories about one ex air chief trying to scuttle Akash acquisition in favor of another foreign JV acquisition,

Some people asking for bribes in LUH tenders,

the agusta west land debacle,

the sordid story of TATRA trucks, the list is practically endless,

Also when T-90s get stuck in desert heat with packing up electronics after being bought with no summer trials, winter trials, spring trials, autumn trials that are exclusively reserved only foe Arjun, the responsibility to fix the AC to remedy the situation is ours, not russians!!!!

When it comes to Arjun every jacksh1t of unnamed army personnel smugly claims that it can not cross the 40 ton old british bridges in India, so we can not induct it.
But how come the close 50 ton T-90s cross the same bridge?

answer is not far to seek. Both are going to use the same 70 ton bridging equipment being standardized by DRDO for IA .

So the endless song that you can not trust ADA DRDO , but buy every international jacksh!t who will palm off stuff with dubious claims that have no relation to indian hot and humid operating conditions at ridiculously high prices( when a phased induction of local stuff at much lower price will go a long way in increasing the fighting capacity )goes on endlessly..

 

[Ashutosh Lokhande]

Re: Why Rafale is a Big Mistake

Huh? I don't think you understand what that means.

Efficiency is the key here. They don't fill the tanks up to the brim during such ferry range flights where fuel is preserved to the maximum. Fuel is managed so it provides the best performance figures possible.

They did not fill all of the aircraft up and then empty the tank before refueling again. They would keep around, say, 75%, use up enough fuel up to 50 or 40% and then refuel again to get it back to 75% and repeat the process 4 more times.

In actual missions, the refueling process would be different depending on the missions.

Naturally, in DPS missions the range is much smaller, said to be 3600 Km in a hi-lo-hi profile.

just like they do in Formula 1.

 

[p2prada]

Re: Why Rafale is a Big Mistake

just like they do in Formula 1.

Yes, that's a very good example.

 

[Mad Indian]

Re: Why Rafale is a Big Mistake

No, it isn't, smartass.

https://www.thalesgroup.com/en/cont...ture-india-civilian-and-select-defence-radars


This is offsets, dumbass.

RIL-Dassault to make business jets


This is offsets, dumbass.

BEL, French firm Sagem to work in production of naval parts - Economic Times


This is offsets, dumbass.

So, large radars, the Falcon business jet and naval instruments, the IAF will put all of this on Rafale and fly it around. How about stop being a dumbass now?

There are tons more in the offing that we do not yet know of.

The 50% offsets is independent of the Rafale deal. The manufacturing and setting up of infrastructure is part of the Rafale's main contract, not offsets.

There were no offsets in the MKI deal, dumbass. Who do you think setup the manufacturing facilities in India? It was Sukhoi.



Who gives a flying F. They wanted a negotiations advantage which didn't work out. They are going to comply with all the rules we have placed. That's why only cost negotiations are taking place today while all the other reports have been submitted already.



I could smoke anything I want and still make smarter comments.

So you tell me how much will France earn?



We are.



Arab countries are dumb. Don't compare the two.

And that's 61 Million GBP, dumbass. That's $100 Million per jet without ToT and industrial production and even maintenance. The maintenance contract was separate and costed another 1.8 Billion GBP until 2017. This is not even counting the inflation rate of 2-3% on the contract which is the norm. Calculate that for 10 years since the deal was signed in 2005 and then compare that to Rafale.

That gave me 82 Million GBP for each aircraft or $137 Million per jet. $137 Million without ToT, industrial production and maintenance. Hil-----ing-larious.



Yeah, it does. Since you are barking up the wrong tree, throwing completely wrong figures around.

Go look up the Swiss air force assessment on Rafale and why they put the jet above Typhoon in every parameter. Jesus F Christ!



This is how business works, dumbass. When companies invest in India, they do so for the sake of profits. The MRCA deal forces the company to invest in India.

Maybe the Americans were stupid when Intel setup a R&D facility in Bangalore. Maybe the Japanese are idiots for wanting to invest $90 Billion in infrastructure in the country.

Maybe Amazon are run by a bunch of idiots since they want to invest $2 Billion in the country.

Oh, look. It's the Chinese. The biggest bunch of idiots among the lot. They only want to finance 30% of our infrastructure projects and want to invest at least $300 Billion.

Dassault seem to be looking more and more like an idiot since they will be investing only 50% of the MRCA deal.

France is sooooooo stupid. I never realized until today.

I can understand the frustration. I have been having it for sometime now

 

[p2prada]

Re: Why Rafale is a Big Mistake

I can understand the frustration. I have been having it for sometime now

They write whatever they want and don't even bother checking if what they said is true or not.

 

[Pulkit]

Re: Scrapping Rafale Deal Now Good Or Bad...

"The Rafale Deal Should Be Scrapped And Renegotiated" : SWAMY | idrw.org
The BJP's stormy petrel Subramanian Swamy has for long been publicly opposed to the $22 billion Rafale deal, to the point of even suggesting that there was more to the UPA government's choice than met the eye. In February 2012,The Sunday Times of London quoted Swamy as saying he had initially been told the Eurofighter had won the deal to supply 126 fighter jets but that it all changed after the entry of a veteran French consultant, Bernard Baiocco, an ex-employee of the defence firm Thales, which contributes radar and electronic systems to Rafale. "Baiocco was here (in Delhi) and he went around, and everything changed after that," Swamy had said, explaining the UPA's sudden change of heart. With the Modi government poised to indicate its choice, Swamy spoke to <strong>Pranay Sharma</strong>
<strong>What do you think of the Rafale deal?</strong>
It stinks right through. The deal should be frozen or scrapped and negotiations for the MMRCA should begin afresh.
<strong>Why do you say this?</strong>
There are a number of reasons but foremost Rafale was finalised not through commercial negotiation; it was done by private conversations between Sonia Gandhi, her sisters and Carla Bruni, wife of then French president Nicolas Sarkozy.
<strong>Your other objections</strong>
No country outside France has so far bought the Rafale. Some countries had shortlisted it, but rejected it later. We must find out why they did so. We must also know why it is so much more expensive than the other competitors. With the kind of money India has pledged to buy the planes, it can actually buy over the entire company that makes them. Moreover, there are also reports that it is trying to win the contract by giving a subcontract to an influential Indian industrialist. In addition, its performance in terms of fuel consumption etc was much higher and unimpressive during the recent Libyan campaign.
<strong>So what should be done about the Rafale deal?</strong>
I had written to the UPA defence minister A.K. Antony citing reports and the information on the Sonia Gandhi family's link with Carla Bruni. Being an honorable man sensitive about his image and reputation, Antony had frozen negotiations with Rafale. I am not sure why Arun Jaitley decided to defreeze it.
<strong>The BJP's in power. Will you ask for Rafale deal to be scrapped?</strong>
We have a party meeting coming up in a few days. I will raise the issue not only with defence minister Jaitley but also with PM Narendra Modi. I'll definitely bring it to their notice.

 

[ersakthivel]

Re: Why Rafale is a Big Mistake

True, there are many false marketing claims for the Rafale, looking at the fact they flew 10K Kms and needed 5 refuels + 1 to begin with i.e a range of 1600 km with no weapons and two fuel tanks quite clearly shows Rafale doesn't have the famed deep legs as claimed since the start. Also such long range distances are covered flying at very high altitude i.e over 30K feet at optimal fuel burning cruise speed to minimize fuel consumption, these claimed long ranges would be much lower when slung with weapons flying in low in deep strike missions.

@p2prada
Huh? I don't think you understand what that means.

Efficiency is the key here. They don't fill the tanks up to the brim during such ferry range flights where fuel is preserved to the maximum. Fuel is managed so it provides the best performance figures possible.

They did not fill all of the aircraft up and then empty the tank before refueling again. They would keep around, say, 75%, use up enough fuel up to 50 or 40% and then refuel again to get it back to 75% and repeat the process 4 more times.

In actual missions, the refueling process would be different depending on the missions.

Naturally, in DPS missions the range is much smaller, said to be 3600 Km in a hi-lo-hi profile.

They write whatever they want and don't even bother checking if what they said is true or not.

The trouble with above explanation is,

When a tanker and two rafales take off from France, they will have x tons of fuels. So even if we accept that rafales were filled partially with fuel as fuel saving technique, it really is not going to save any fuel, because the x tons of fuels sits in the tanks of tanker aircraft and two rafales. SO the fuel saved on rafale by partial fuel filling will be expended by the jet engines of taker in carrying the total fuel in the air,

Considering that rafale are doing close to thousand Km per hour it is suboptimal for a tanker to fly at the cruise speed of rafale with excess fuel in its tank, rather than filling them in rafale's tanks,

It is always nice for the rafales to have the fuel in their tanks, because in case of any emergency on tanker rafales will be in a dicey position. Also in flight refuelling is a dicey affair too with its own excess fuel burn issues, SO it is much better to fill the fuel in all rafale tanks in one go rather than partially,

Another jarring issue is if rafales are to be filled only with partial fuel , then why two external tanks(which induce drag and reduce fuel efficiency!!!) present on rafale. They could have taken off without any external fuel tanks or at least one center line fuel tank for less fuel burning flight!!!

So most probably the 1500 Km range is due to the location of the reunion islands in the tropics with high temp(conditions like india) which saps close to ten percent of engine thrust and 12 percent of wing lift. Any other explanation looks suspect. Or we need some official clarification from IAF which tested rafales in hot condition.

 

[arnabmit]

Re: Why Rafale is a Big Mistake

This Bharat karnad is a master troll!!!

Do read the rebuttal...
Bharat karnad : Counter-response to Air Marshal Barbora, and others | idrw.org

 

[Pulkit]

Re: Why Rafale is a Big Mistake

Not everything that some one says and u don't agree is troll....

He might have exaggerated few points.... but he does make sense at least to me....

Do share in sight why you call it a troll?

This Bharat karnad is a master troll!!!

 

[arnabmit]

Re: Why Rafale is a Big Mistake

especially the russians like to bash and mock the f35, f22, typhoon, rafale or anything related to us/nato. but, they keep super quiet when their latest and so called most advanced 5th gen stealth was blown up due to electrical and engine failure lol. what typical and predictable commies!

Such things happen during Development phase.

F-35 Fire Caused by Rubbing Engine Fan Blades | Military.com

 

[arnabmit]

Re: Why Rafale is a Big Mistake

If you have read the article and couldn't figure out why I said he was trolling, then I can't help you to understand.

Not everything that some one says and u don't agree is troll....

He might have exaggerated few points.... but he does make sense at least to me....

Do share in sight why you call it a troll?

 

[Pulkit]

Re: Why Rafale is a Big Mistake

Same statement can be quoted for you...

"get well soon" my friend wish u speedy recovery...

If you have read the article and couldn't figure out why I said he was trolling, then I can't help you to understand.

 

[ersakthivel]

Re: Why Rafale is a Big Mistake

This Bharat karnad is a master troll!!!

How do you justify MMRCA tendr notifying anything below 30 tons as MMRCA?

Fighters with empty weight of 7 tons and 12 tons with single and twin engines get clubbed into same tender, but SU -35 could not participate in it.

Considering the stinking corruption charges in every one of UPA' major deal from coal allocation, 2G, agusta westland, LUh deal, TATARA deal, there is hardly any reason to accept that everything is above board on MMRCA tender.

First lifecycle cost was set as a requirement and then discarded.

Then Dassault's rafale bid was rejected for incomplete bid document and then some how mysteriously allowed back in.

Even more bizarre is the cavaliar manner in which all financial bids were allowed to expire by 2009. Didn't the IAF MOD combo know it will be a financial disaster if they could not finish the evaluation by 2009?

This is what Bharath karnad and various others are pointing out for a long time.

This all consuming evaluation of six fighters to the extent of lwtting financial bid expire by 2009 is now the thorn in the flesh of FM.

because a quick decision earlier would have meant we would have bought the rafale at much lower price.

Who is responsible for that?
From 2004 to 2014 ADA took up the entire Full scale Engineering development of phase -2 , which was specified by the IAF, which led to redesign of the wings to accomadate higher weight air to air missiles and 240 design changes , got IOC-1 and 2 and put the production line into action.

But from 2004 to 2014 MOD-IAF could not evaluate and decide which fighter to buy in MMRCA contract and happily let the financial bid to expire now leading to prices doubling.

It is strange that people haul ADA over the coals for the delays in tejas which was beyond its controls, are keeping mum on this scandalous affair.


By not even allowing mig-35 and su-35 to contest we have rubbed the russians wrong way and now they are considering supplying weapons like MI-35 and fighter engines for JF-17 to PAK.

By asking the US fighters in(knowing fully well they wont suit our needs as they are at the end of their product lifecycle development) and rejecting them later , we have soured our relations with US into deep chill , which could easily have been avoided as product improvement scope was put as one of the deciding factor on the tender.

Now we are hoping france to stand upto china's pressure in future in case of any two front war emergency by going for rafale in the 2030s.

Only two countries US and Russia are capable of standing upto china to safeguard their strategic interest in 2030s. I don't know how far France is capable of standing upto china in case of emergency spares request and MLU requests in future.I don't believe that french will transfer all their aeronautical tech developed developed till 2014 for rafale as a part and parcel of the deal as people claim here. Critical items will still remain with them.
le of

If we have gone in for a large number of tejas mk1 and mk2 combo the situation could have been easily avoided. In ten years time we could have finished an engine development program that is capable of giving us a replacement engine for tejas mk1 and mk2 and thus along with akash missile we could have a totally indigenous fighter in our hands safe from foreign influence.

This engine tech could even have been used for AMCA thus giving us a promising road map. But now with

 

[Jagdish58]

Re: Why Rafale is a Big Mistake

How do you justify MMRCA tendr notifying anything below 30 tons as MMRCA?

Fighters with empty weight of 7 tons and 12 tons with single and twin engines get clubbed into same tender, but SU -35 could not participate in it.

Considering the stinking corruption charges in every one of UPA' major deal from coal allocation, 2G, agusta westland, LUh dela, TATARA deal, there is hardly any reason to accept that everything is above board on MMRCA tender.

First lifecycle cost was set as a requirement and then discarded.

Then Dassault's rafale bid was rejected for incomplete bid document and then some how mysteriously allowed back in

There is huge pressure on current govt to eiether cancel or scale down the deal , since the cost is soared upto 22 billion from 12 billion

let us hope the best , don't waste you energy is explaining people who have baised thought on MMRCA , Wish MMRCA is cancelled:thumb:
"The Rafale Deal Should Be Scrapped And Renegotiated" : SWAMY | idrw.org
RAFALE DEAL : That Bird In The Sky | idrw.org

 

[ersakthivel]

Re: Why Rafale is a Big Mistake

There is huge pressure on current govt to eiether cancel or scale down the deal , since the cost is soared upto 22 billion from 12 billion

let us hope the best , don't waste you energy is explaining people who have baised thought on MMRCA , Wish MMRCA is cancelled:thumb:
"The Rafale Deal Should Be Scrapped And Renegotiated" : SWAMY | idrw.org
RAFALE DEAL : That Bird In The Sky | idrw.org

The new OUTLOOK issue has a cover story about RAFALE- Modi's 1 , 32, 000 crore headache,.
Rightly said.

 

[Jagdish58]

Re: Why Rafale is a Big Mistake

The new OUTLOOK issue has a cover story about RAFALE- Modi's 1 , 32, 000 crore headache,.
Rightly said.

Commonsense

How we have squashed domestic project in favour for Imports
http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/indian-air-force/62653-hal-lost-opportunity.html

JF-17 and Lca Tejas: Difference in approach | idrw.org

Approach of IAF & PAF on respective projects

Again im not expert like @ersakthivel or @Kunal Biswas or many others in this forum on fighter jet ,but simple logic LCA was developed to replace Mig-21

- Is LCA not good enough in its IOC configuration?? to replace Mig-21
- We have Su-30MKI , Mig-29SMT , Mirage-2000-5 ( all after upgrades) LCA MK2 in pipeline & FGFA later why we need Rafale then??
- Many might argue two front war , after 1962 did India and China fought full scale war?? answer is no but many Skirmish like chola , 1987 , 2014 etc . If you station Rafale in Tezpur , Leh is their a guarantee China will not cross LOC ??
- Again im no expert IAF knows their doctrine well than guy like me , but in forum we can make suggestions even if it does not make diff to IAF decision

Please do not mistake me im biased to LCA & i hate MMRCA Rafale , im just trying to make a point we are trying Indigenisation of defence industry why not start from MMRCA is the question

 

[ersakthivel]

Re: Why Rafale is a Big Mistake

Commonsense

How we have squashed domestic project in favour for Imports
http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/indian-air-force/62653-hal-lost-opportunity.html

JF-17 and Lca Tejas: Difference in approach | idrw.org

Approach of IAF & PAF on respective projects

Again im not expert like @ersakthivel or @Kunal Biswas or many others in this forum on fighter jet ,but simple logic LCA was developed to replace Mig-21

- Is LCA not good enough in its IOC configuration?? to replace Mig-21
- We have Su-30MKI , Mig-29SMT , Mirage-2000-5 ( all after upgrades) LCA MK2 in pipeline & FGFA later why we need Rafale then??
- Many might argue two front war , after 1962 did India and China fought full scale war?? answer is no but many Skirmish like chola , 1987 , 2014 etc . If you station Rafale in Tezpur , Leh is their a guarantee China will not cross LOC ??
- Again im no expert IAF knows their doctrine well than guy like me , but in forum we can make suggestions even if it does not make diff to IAF decision

Please do not mistake me im biased to LCA & i hate MMRCA Rafale , im just trying to make a point we are trying Indigenisation of defence industry why not start from MMRCA is the question

tejas is good enough to replace even mirage-2000 in IOC config.

It has lower wing loading, higher TWR and lesser RCS than even the upgraded Mirage-2000.

Every one knows it is one of UPA's sweaheart deals coming back to haunt the Modi government.

Are more expensive weapons automatically more capable « Defense Issues

Also the whole MMRCA tender is simply flawed.

they did not define the tech they wanted on the MMRCA like,
1. lower clean config RCS,
2. Higher thrust to weight ratio and lowewr wing loading combo,
3. Relaxed static stability fly by wire platform,
5. Certain range or weapon load,
6. Product at the begining of the cycle development guaranteed of future upgrade,
7. A plane which is produced and servivng in a number higher than 100 in their home airforce with the engine present on the demo plane(to avoid the T-90 like no support for AC fiasco).

in place of the above tech wish list they simply put the below 30 ton weight category as prime criteria to shoo off the russian Su-35


If the above 7 conditions were made as their primary requirement for MMRCA RFP,
then we would have only typhoon and rafale to choose between.
And we could have chosen one before 2009 easily, well before the financial bids getting lapsed.

And we could have procured the fighter for MMRCA at a much lower cost in dollar(and rupee as well as rupee was trading at 50 a dollar then).

but it was a political circus with planes nearing their end of upgrades like F-16 and F-18 competeing with plane that has just one developmental prototype with not even an IOC like gripen E.

IAF evaluated all these 6 fighters to their heart's content well after the financial bid has lapsed and landed the country in a mess.

And when a capable tejas mk1 and mk2 getting near the induction line(tejas not ready and Mirage-2000 were needed after their good performance in kargil was the defining need for the original tender of 126 mirage-2000 which grew into this MMRCA circus.) IAf is simply hell bent on killing local industry once again by channeling a huge 20 billion dollars spread over the next few decades into rafale , whose all jobs can be done by Tejas mk2 and Su-30 MKi combo at a much lower cost.

Thats why the deal is attracting such severe criticism from all quarters.

Every body knows that this rafale deal will dump the same fate on tejas mk2, which was dumped on Arjun with t-90 procurement, simply there will be no money for us to induct much more costlier FGFA immediatley after rafale and still have meaningful tejas numbers.

 

[no smoking]

Re: Why Rafale is a Big Mistake

As an outsider, I would like to add some points.

- Is LCA not good enough in its IOC configuration?? to replace Mig-21

No, I think the ultimate certificate is FOC not IOC, right?

- We have Su-30MKI , Mig-29SMT , Mirage-2000-5 ( all after upgrades) LCA MK2 in pipeline & FGFA later why we need Rafale then??

I think first 3 don't give you quality edge against Chinese J-11B and J-11BS, not to mention J10 (according to PLA, J10 performs far better than Su-27 in its drills as long as range is not taken into consideration). LCA MK2 is still on the paper, nobody knows how good it will be. Even it is delivered as promised, it will take at least another 10 years to mature. But you have to know, J-10B is ready now and Chinese already started the work on J-10C. So, highly likely, when LCA MK2 enters service, it will still be no match against the latest J-10 versions at the time.
Here is why Rafale comes in, it is ready and has enough edge over current J-10. And people have greater confidence on French's technical ability to keep this edge over any improvement on J-10 in near future.

- Many might argue two front war , after 1962 did India and China fought full scale war?? answer is no but many Skirmish like chola , 1987 , 2014 etc . If you station Rafale in Tezpur , Leh is their a guarantee China will not cross LOC ??

If p2prada is right that India is looking for an offensive air force deep into Chinese air space, then we are looking at scenario completely different from 1962, or even 2014. In the future war, Indian pilots have to fight 1000kms away from their airport without ground support, which means this fighter is expected to fight independently. This is what Rafale was designed for, not LCA. If you require LCA MK2 to play that role, the workload will be equal to designing a new plane—MRCA.

Please do not mistake me im biased to LCA & i hate MMRCA Rafale , im just trying to make a point we are trying Indigenisation of defence industry why not start from MMRCA is the question

Only India government can answer this question because this is a strategic question not tactic. As a developing country with limited budget and resource, India can't afford modernizing its military and building up its military industry at the same time and same speed. One must be prioritized over another. So, question is: which one you prefer to do first. From 1960s to 1990s, Chinese choose the latter while keeping its forces with outdated weapons for over 30 years. During this period, the only preparation to USSR attack is nuclear mines and insurgency war. In the meantime, the limited budget was focused on industry building.
So, is there any india government willing to take this kind of risk? Or would India public allow its government to adopt such strategy?

 

[Jagdish58]

Re: Why Rafale is a Big Mistake

As an outsider, I would like to add some points.


No, I think the ultimate certificate is FOC not IOC, right?


I think first 3 don't give you quality edge against Chinese J-11B and J-11BS, not to mention J10 (according to PLA, J10 performs far better than Su-27 in its drills as long as range is not taken into consideration). LCA MK2 is still on the paper, nobody knows how good it will be. Even it is delivered as promised, it will take at least another 10 years to mature. But you have to know, J-10B is ready now and Chinese already started the work on J-10C. So, highly likely, when LCA MK2 enters service, it will still be no match against the latest J-10 versions at the time.
Here is why Rafale comes in, it is ready and has enough edge over current J-10. And people have greater confidence on French's technical ability to keep this edge over any improvement on J-10 in near future.

If p2prada is right that India is looking for an offensive air force deep into Chinese air space, then we are looking at scenario completely different from 1962, or even 2014. In the future war, Indian pilots have to fight 1000kms away from their airport without ground support, which means this fighter is expected to fight independently. This is what Rafale was designed for, not LCA. If you require LCA MK2 to play that role, the workload will be equal to designing a new plane—MRCA.

Only India government can answer this question because this is a strategic question not tactic. As a developing country with limited budget and resource, India can't afford modernizing its military and building up its military industry at the same time and same speed. One must be prioritized over another. So, question is: which one you prefer to do first. From 1960s to 1990s, Chinese choose the latter while keeping its forces with outdated weapons for over 30 years. During this period, the only preparation to USSR attack is nuclear mines and insurgency war. In the meantime, the limited budget was focused on industry building.
So, is there any india government willing to take this kind of risk? Or would India public allow its government to adopt such strategy?

Simple Mig-29B we procured from USSR in 80's in a hurry the fighter was still under development hence why not LCA Tejas is my question
Next on J-10 you will always rate it above J-11, J-15 others etc because it is backbone of PLAAF and it is home grown kid of china, You will bank on J-10 in conflict we will on LCA Mk2 hence no comment on it , we can never come to conclusion which one is superior
FYI LCA MK2 design phase is over prototype manufacture is under pipe line most probably it might take off in 2016 - 2017 , let us give leverage induction starts from 2020
Even if we sign Rafale in 2014 , it will take 18-24 months for them to supply first squadron from france , then setting up production line in HAL , cost overrun , if any scam unearth there will be hell lot of drama like the BOFORS
T-90 we have brought from Russia it is plaqued by poor aftermarket support , no proper AC etc . Now DRDO is working to fix the problem funny isin't it

if at all we want to go for MMRCA if have to buy Mig-35 , advantage we have on this low cost compare to Rafale we have MIG complex in india and maintainance will be easy due to Mig-29K & Mig-29SMT fleet in IAF & IN

RAFALE has to be cancelled or downsized at any cost , even MODI govt is thinking about it which we can see in news