ADA Tejas (LCA) News and Discussions

Which role suits LCA 'Tejas' more than others from following options?

  • Interceptor-Defend Skies from Intruders.

    Votes: 342 51.3%
  • Airsuperiority-Complete control of the skies.

    Votes: 17 2.5%
  • Strike-Attack deep into enemy zone.

    Votes: 24 3.6%
  • Multirole-Perform multiple roles.

    Votes: 284 42.6%

  • Total voters
    667
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ersakthivel

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Bro, what is the purpose of this article and post. We all know that this is incorrect data.
It says the aircraft weighs around 5450 kg which is far less than what is available on open source news. If this is true then it means it has achieved it's weight target more or less. But we are yet to hear the final weight figure for LSP-8 or SP-1 officially from ADA.
 

Decklander

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It says the aircraft weighs around 5450 kg which is far less than what is available on open source news. If this is true then it means it has achieved it's weight target more or less. But we are yet to hear the final weight figure for LSP-8 or SP-1 officially from ADA.
This is a very old data and LCA is nowhr close to even 6000kgs figure.
 

arnabmit

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So i was kinda right... OFB produced chocolate bombs. :troll:

BTW how can hey practice with something so small and light? Wouldn't they have different air resistance, momentum, inertia effecting the fall trajectory which would make them have completely different characteristics than even 250kg free fall bombs?

Practice bomblets. Create smoke and flash on impact.

Ordnance Factory Board
 

Twinblade

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So i was kinda right... OFB produced chocolate bombs. :troll:

BTW how can hey practice with something so small and light? Wouldn't they have different air resistance, momentum, inertia effecting the fall trajectory which would make them have completely different characteristics than even 250kg free fall bombs?
They are designed to mimic ballistic properties of heavier HSLD bombs.
 

arnabmit

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A bird in the hand

SOURCE: Ajai Shukla / Business-standard.com

After two decades of development and the expenditure of some Rs 8,000 crore, the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) is nearing operational service in the Indian Air Force (IAF). With Final Operational Clearance (FOC) targeted for end-2014, an Indian light fighter would be flying combat missions in any conflict from 2015 onwards. Given that this is India's first modern combat fighter, the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) – the Defence R&D Organisation (DRDO) body that oversees the Tejas project – has developed its debut fighter quickly and cheaply.

It is time to induct the Tejas into the IAF in large numbers, not just to phase out the MiG-21, but also to let line pilots develop confidence in the fighter and allow their feedback to inform further development. But the ministry of defence (MoD) has unwisely decided to build just two squadrons of the already developed aircraft – called Tejas Mark I – and to start developing an even more capable Tejas Mark II. This is an enormous blunder for at least three reasons.

Firstly, as testified by the IAF test pilots who have flown the Tejas through more than a thousand hours of flight-testing, the current version of the fighter, i.e. the Tejas Mark I, is already a world-class fighter that has achieved most performance landmarks that the IAF had demanded. It flies at Mach 1.6 (about 2,000 kmph), a speed that the IAF is satisfied with. Its state-of-the-art quadruplex digital flight control system makes it a manoeuvrable and easy-to-fly fighter, unlike the unforgiving MiG-21 that it is slated to replace. The Tejas has not had a single accident so far, testifying to the stability of its design.

Another key measure of a fighter's capability is the Angle of Attack (AoA) it can achieve. The higher the AoA, the more lift that is generated, allowing a fighter to get airborne at slower speeds from short airstrips, e.g. aircraft carriers. The IAF had demanded an AoA of 26 degrees for the Tejas. The Tejas has already been tested to 24 degrees, and is on course to achieve that target.

Says Air Commodore (Retd) Parvez Khokhar, who was for years the chief test pilot of the Tejas programme: "The Tejas Mark I is far superior to the MiG-21 fleet that the IAF would have to operate to the end of this decade. In key respects, it is a better fighter than even the Mirage 2000. The Tejas Mark I should enter the IAF's combat fleet in larger numbers and the Tejas Mark II scaled down. This would allow the air force to retire the MiG-21 fleet sooner."

For this, the MoD must review its current plan to build just forty Tejas Mark I fighters, and embark upon another risky adventure to develop a more powerful, capable fighter. Since this would take at least four years of development work, the IAF would not start receiving the Tejas Mark II until 2018.

Furthermore, developing an ambitiously-framed Tejas Mark II would be dogged by uncertainty. To give the Mark II additional power, ADA plans to replace the Mark I's General Electric F-404 engine, which develops barely 80 KiloNewtons of thrust, with a more recent General Electric F-414 engine that will provide 90-96 KiloNewtons. But an internal ADA study has found that there may eventually be no benefit from this upgrade, since the Tejas' fuselage would have to be significantly redesigned to accommodate the bulkier, heavier F-414. All this added weight, the study concludes, would neutralise the new engine's added power. Furthermore, there is a longstanding design flaw in the Tejas air intake, which allows barely enough air to be sucked in for the current F-404 engine. Fitting the more powerful F-414 would require the air intakes to be enlarged as well. And the rearrangement of so many major aerostructures would shift the Mark II's centre of gravity, necessitating the shifting around of other components to get the balance right.

Instead of this major redesign, loaded with the likelihood of further delays, it would be far more prudent to order more Tejas Mark I, while restricting the scope of the Mark II upgrade. This is where the third major benefit would come in – through the early activation of a mass production line on which Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) could build fighters quickly. Currently, the tiny volume of orders (20 Mark I ordered, 20 more in the pipeline) prevents HAL from ramping up its supply chains and investing in an assembly line that can churn out at least ten fighters a year. So slow is the current process that HAL will deliver the first Tejas Mark I in mid-2014; the second in late-2014; and just three Tejas in 2015.

Given the need to replace the MiG-21 quickly, as also the need to indigenise our arsenal, this is appallingly slow. Defence Minister A K Antony, at the annual Tejas Review Meeting on June 24, promised HAL Rs 1,500 crore for setting up the Tejas assembly line. But that is missing the wood for the trees; what use is an assembly line in the absence of orders?

What is needed then is an immediate IAF order for at least three squadrons of Tejas Mark I, which would galvanise HAL and the supply chains into activity. While releasing Rs 1,500 crore to HAL, instructions must be issued that the production line must deliver six Tejas Mark I fighters in 2014, and hit its production target of ten fighters per year in 2015. Meanwhile the Tejas Mark II must be fully developed by 2016. This would require it to be less ambitious, restricting itself to modernising avionics; fitting an Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar; mounting more advanced air-to-air missiles; developing an onboard oxygen-generating system; and equipping the fighter with a mid-air refuelling system to increase its range.
 

Abhi9

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Really good News

It flies at Mach 1.6 (about 2,000 kmph), a speed that the IAF is satisfied with. Its state-of-the-art quadruplex digital flight control system makes it a manoeuvrable and easy-to-fly fighter, unlike the unforgiving MiG-21 that it is slated to replace. The Tejas has not had a single accident so far, testifying to the stability of its design.

Another key measure of a fighter's capability is the Angle of Attack (AoA) it can achieve. The higher the AoA, the more lift that is generated, allowing a fighter to get airborne at slower speeds from short airstrips, e.g. aircraft carriers. The IAF had demanded an AoA of 26 degrees for the Tejas. The Tejas has already been tested to 24 degrees, and is on course to achieve that target.
 

Kunal Biswas

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@ersakthivel, If i remember the AoA of Tejas were noted at 28 degrees at some Gov official`s PDF.. ?
 
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ladder

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So slow is the current process that HAL will deliver the first Tejas Mark I in mid-2014; the second in late-2014; and just three Tejas in 2015.
This information doesn't match with the info given by Dr. Chander in his interview.
 

Defcon 1

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A bird in the hand

SOURCE: Ajai Shukla / Business-standard.com

After two decades of development and the expenditure of some Rs 8,000 crore, the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) is nearing operational service in the Indian Air Force (IAF). With Final Operational Clearance (FOC) targeted for end-2014, an Indian light fighter would be flying combat missions in any conflict from 2015 onwards. Given that this is India's first modern combat fighter, the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) – the Defence R&D Organisation (DRDO) body that oversees the Tejas project – has developed its debut fighter quickly and cheaply.

It is time to induct the Tejas into the IAF in large numbers, not just to phase out the MiG-21, but also to let line pilots develop confidence in the fighter and allow their feedback to inform further development. But the ministry of defence (MoD) has unwisely decided to build just two squadrons of the already developed aircraft – called Tejas Mark I – and to start developing an even more capable Tejas Mark II. This is an enormous blunder for at least three reasons.

Firstly, as testified by the IAF test pilots who have flown the Tejas through more than a thousand hours of flight-testing, the current version of the fighter, i.e. the Tejas Mark I, is already a world-class fighter that has achieved most performance landmarks that the IAF had demanded. It flies at Mach 1.6 (about 2,000 kmph), a speed that the IAF is satisfied with. Its state-of-the-art quadruplex digital flight control system makes it a manoeuvrable and easy-to-fly fighter, unlike the unforgiving MiG-21 that it is slated to replace. The Tejas has not had a single accident so far, testifying to the stability of its design.

Another key measure of a fighter's capability is the Angle of Attack (AoA) it can achieve. The higher the AoA, the more lift that is generated, allowing a fighter to get airborne at slower speeds from short airstrips, e.g. aircraft carriers. The IAF had demanded an AoA of 26 degrees for the Tejas. The Tejas has already been tested to 24 degrees, and is on course to achieve that target.

Says Air Commodore (Retd) Parvez Khokhar, who was for years the chief test pilot of the Tejas programme: "The Tejas Mark I is far superior to the MiG-21 fleet that the IAF would have to operate to the end of this decade. In key respects, it is a better fighter than even the Mirage 2000. The Tejas Mark I should enter the IAF's combat fleet in larger numbers and the Tejas Mark II scaled down. This would allow the air force to retire the MiG-21 fleet sooner."

For this, the MoD must review its current plan to build just forty Tejas Mark I fighters, and embark upon another risky adventure to develop a more powerful, capable fighter. Since this would take at least four years of development work, the IAF would not start receiving the Tejas Mark II until 2018.

Furthermore, developing an ambitiously-framed Tejas Mark II would be dogged by uncertainty. To give the Mark II additional power, ADA plans to replace the Mark I's General Electric F-404 engine, which develops barely 80 KiloNewtons of thrust, with a more recent General Electric F-414 engine that will provide 90-96 KiloNewtons. But an internal ADA study has found that there may eventually be no benefit from this upgrade, since the Tejas' fuselage would have to be significantly redesigned to accommodate the bulkier, heavier F-414. All this added weight, the study concludes, would neutralise the new engine's added power. Furthermore, there is a longstanding design flaw in the Tejas air intake, which allows barely enough air to be sucked in for the current F-404 engine. Fitting the more powerful F-414 would require the air intakes to be enlarged as well. And the rearrangement of so many major aerostructures would shift the Mark II's centre of gravity, necessitating the shifting around of other components to get the balance right.

Instead of this major redesign, loaded with the likelihood of further delays, it would be far more prudent to order more Tejas Mark I, while restricting the scope of the Mark II upgrade. This is where the third major benefit would come in – through the early activation of a mass production line on which Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) could build fighters quickly. Currently, the tiny volume of orders (20 Mark I ordered, 20 more in the pipeline) prevents HAL from ramping up its supply chains and investing in an assembly line that can churn out at least ten fighters a year. So slow is the current process that HAL will deliver the first Tejas Mark I in mid-2014; the second in late-2014; and just three Tejas in 2015.

Given the need to replace the MiG-21 quickly, as also the need to indigenise our arsenal, this is appallingly slow. Defence Minister A K Antony, at the annual Tejas Review Meeting on June 24, promised HAL Rs 1,500 crore for setting up the Tejas assembly line. But that is missing the wood for the trees; what use is an assembly line in the absence of orders?

What is needed then is an immediate IAF order for at least three squadrons of Tejas Mark I, which would galvanise HAL and the supply chains into activity. While releasing Rs 1,500 crore to HAL, instructions must be issued that the production line must deliver six Tejas Mark I fighters in 2014, and hit its production target of ten fighters per year in 2015. Meanwhile the Tejas Mark II must be fully developed by 2016. This would require it to be less ambitious, restricting itself to modernising avionics; fitting an Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar; mounting more advanced air-to-air missiles; developing an onboard oxygen-generating system; and equipping the fighter with a mid-air refuelling system to increase its range.
I am sorry, but does that mean that Tejas Mk1 doesn't come with an IFR probe?

Also, how does the author intend to produce 6 Mk1 fighters in 2014 and develop MK2 by 2016? By just issuing instructions? And from where will it power AESA and OBOGS? From GE404? IAF has clearly said that it does not want Mk1, it will only be able to meet requirements after diluting the ASR. Comparison with Mig21 and Mirage 2000 is in vain since these aircraft will retired by next decade, Tejas will serve till 2050, they should compare it with Rafale, since both will enter in IAF at the same time.
 

ersakthivel

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@ersakthivel, If i remember the AoA of Tejas were noted at 28 degrees at some Gov official`s PDF.. ?
There are some statements in the article that are not very well thought out. For example the higher AOA's primary aim is to increase the STR and any take off from ships is not the primary objective of mk-1 as only the IAF has ordered it.

And ADA chief seems so confident about much better capability of tejas mk-2 which won't weigh significantly more than the mk-1 as it's fuselage is supposed to be lengthened by just half a meter and with significantly increased composite content it was not supposed to weigh significantly higher , But the report says that an internal ADA study has found it otherwise, which seems confusing to say the least.

It will be really surprising that without even knowing that mk-2 won't bring in any advantage ADA went for it's development.

If no significant performance boost can be expected from more than 20 percent increase in engine power , then Is mk-2 a wasted effort? I don't really think so.And it won't be that big a design challenge to redesign air intake to cater for that engine requirement as fuselage dia is also expected to be increased for mk-2.

Moreover about the design flaw in air intake , Has it not been solved after so long? The air intake of tejas mk-1 was originally designed for the thrust of 80 kn engine and an empty weight of 5450 kg.

Since tejas increased by a ton in weight(we don't know it's correct empty weight without fluids and ammo has significantly over sought it's design intent conclusively yet.) it's top speed is limited to mach 1.6(tested speed till now.I doubt whether it is it's ultimate top speed officially,) you can't expect the same intake to give enough air to propel the 1 ton extra weight fighter to the same top speeds of a lighter wieght fighter. And Will enlarging it in mk-2 will cause such significant re engineering of other components? More clarity needed.
 
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p2prada

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Comparison with Mig21 and Mirage 2000 is in vain since these aircraft will retired by next decade, Tejas will serve till 2050, they should compare it with Rafale, since both will enter in IAF at the same time.
There is no real comparison with Rafale. Rafale horrendously beats LCA in every single parameter, in performance and in capability.

The reason why it is being compared to Mig-21 is the same reason as why PAF is content with a better JF-17 replacing their older aircraft. This would have held true in 2000, but not today. In case of PAF, they can't really afford anything better at the numbers being ordered. In case of LCA, they can't get into comparisons with IAF's other fighters since it will leave the LCA nowhere. A Mirage-2000 requirement died in 2007.

I understand where the IAF comes from. As long as the Jaguar is operational, they will need a LCA type fighter operational, since the Jaguar isn't really an air to air fighter even if you give it a good radar, which it will have. The larger RCS of the MKI does not bode well to the Jaguar while we won't have enough Rafales until the beginning of the next decade.

Also, Tejas may not necessarily serve until 2050. The service life of the airframe is still confidential, so LCA may very well be used until the engine dies after its service life of 6000 hours. If the airframe matches the engine life, that's a very good thing. Personally, I don't believe the LCA will be required beyond 2030, when Jaguar is retired.
 

ersakthivel

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LCA mk-2 will have a slightly bigger radome dia than the RAFALE if fuselage is enlarged for GE-414.

LCA mk-2 will have a slightly higher top speeds than RAFALE as well with almost the same clean config RCS of RAFALE.

other than the longer range and higher pay load on all other parameters the LCA mk-2 will be better than 80 percent of the present IAF fleet.

And LCA mk-2 will have 120 km range BVR in Astra mk-2, What is the max range of BVRs on MIG-29?

Even with fully loaded air to air config LCA mk-2 will have far lesser RCS than the MIG-29 . Meaning it can get closer to fire it's BVRs giving them a much better kill ratios.

A fully loaded Sukhoi for air to air mission will be spotted by enemy airborne radars at nearly thrice the distance of that of tejas mk-1.

It will carry the combined weapon load of Jag and Mig-21 with lesser RCS than the MIG-29 and the Su-30 and more thrust to weight ratio than the mirage-2000 with equal detection and tracking range of RAFALE radar with almost the same RCS of RAFALE.

According to all available open source info the more than 90 percent composite skin on the tejas surface will have a much better resistance to tough weather in India and weighs less with more stealthy characteristics ,

Already methods were developed to spot the fatigue cracks through state of the art tech and take any corrective action needed.



So it is foolish to compare it with JF-21.
 
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nirranj

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A bird in the hand: induct Tejas Mark I into the IAF in larger numbers

by Ajai Shukla
Business Standard, 23rd July 13



After two decades of development and the expenditure of some 8,000 crore, the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) is nearing operational service in the Indian Air Force (IAF). With Final Operational Clearance (FOC) targeted for end-2014, an Indian light fighter would be flying combat missions in any conflict from 2015 onwards,. Given that this is India's first modern combat fighter, the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) --- the Defence R&D Organisation (DRDO) body that oversees the Tejas project --- has developed its debut fighter quickly and cheaply.

It is time to induct the Tejas into the IAF in large numbers, not just to phase out the MiG-21, but also to let line pilots develop confidence in the fighter and allow their feedback to inform further development. But the Ministry of Defence (MoD) has unwisely decided to build just two squadrons of the already developed aircraft --- called Tejas Mark I --- and to start developing an even more capable Tejas Mark II. This is an enormous blunder for at least three reasons.

Firstly, as testified by the IAF test pilots who have flown the Tejas through more than a thousand hours of flight-testing, the current version of the fighter, i.e. the Tejas Mark I, is already a world-class fighter that has achieved most performance landmarks that the IAF had demanded. It flies at Mach 1.6 (about 2,000 kmph), a speed that the IAF is satisfied with. Its state-of-the-art quadruplex digital flight control system makes it a maneuverable and easy-to-fly fighter, unlike the unforgiving MiG-21 that it is slated to replace. The Tejas has not had a single accident so far, testifying to the stability of its design.

Another key measure of a fighter's capability is the Angle of Attack (AoA) it can achieve. The higher the AoA, the more lift that is generated, allowing a fighter to get airborne at slower speeds from short airstrips, e.g. aircraft carriers. The IAF had demanded an AoA of 26 degrees for the Tejas. The Tejas has already been tested to 24 degrees, and is on course to achieve that target.

Says Air Commodore (Retd) Parvez Khokhar, who was for years the chief test pilot of the Tejas programme: "The Tejas Mark I is far superior to the MiG-21 fleet that the IAF would have to operate to the end of this decade. In key respects, it is a better fighter than even the Mirage 2000. The Tejas Mark I should enter the IAF's combat fleet in larger numbers and the Tejas Mark II scaled down. This would allow the air force to retire the MiG-21 fleet sooner."

For this, the MoD must review its current plan to build just forty Tejas Mark I fighters, and embark upon another risky adventure to develop a more powerful, capable fighter. Since this would take at least four years of development work, the IAF would not start receiving the Tejas Mark II until 2018.

Furthermore, developing an ambitiously-framed Tejas Mark II would be dogged by uncertainty. To give the Mark II additional power, ADA plans to replace the Mark I's General Electric F-404 engine, which develops barely 80 KiloNewtons of thrust, with a more recent General Electric F-414 engine that will provide 90-96 KiloNewtons. But an internal ADA study has found that there may eventually be no benefit from this upgrade, since the Tejas' fuselage would have to be significantly redesigned to accommodate the bulkier, heavier F-414. All this added weight, the study concludes, would neutralize the new engine's added power. Furthermore, there is a longstanding design flaw in the Tejas air intake, which allows barely enough air to be sucked in for the current F-404 engine. Fitting the more powerful F-414 would require the air intakes to be enlarged as well. And the rearrangement of so many major aerostructures would shift the Mark II's centre of gravity, necessitating the shifting around of other components to get the balance right.

Instead of this major redesign, loaded with the likelihood of further delays, it would be far more prudent to order more Tejas Mark I, while restricting the scope of the Mark II upgrade. This is where the third major benefit would come in --- through the early activation of a mass production line on which Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) could build fighters quickly. Currently, the tiny volume of orders (20 Mark I ordered, 20 more in the pipeline) prevents HAL from ramping up its supply chains and investing in an assembly line that can churn out at least ten fighters a year. So slow is the current process that HAL will deliver the first Tejas Mark I in mid-2014; the second in late-2014; and just three Tejas in 2015.

Given the need to replace the MiG-21 quickly, as also the need to indigenize our arsenal, this is appallingly slow. Defence Minister AK Antony, at the annual Tejas Review Meeting on Jun 24, promised HAL Rs 1,500 crore for setting up the Tejas assembly line. But that is missing the wood for the trees; what use is an assembly line in the absence of orders?

What is needed then is an immediate IAF order for at least three squadrons of Tejas Mark I, which would galvanize HAL and the supply chains into activity. While releasing Rs 1,500 crore to HAL, instructions must be issued that the production line must deliver six Tejas Mark I fighters in 2014, and hit its production target of ten fighters per year in 2015. Meanwhile the Tejas Mark II must be fully developed by 2016. This would require it to be less ambitious, restricting itself to modernizing avionics; fitting an Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar; mounting more advanced air-to-air missiles; developing an onboard oxygen-generating system; and equipping the fighter with a mid-air refuelling system to increase its range.
Broadsword: A bird in the hand: induct Tejas Mark I into the IAF in larger numbers
 

nirranj

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What is needed then is an immediate IAF order for at least three squadrons of Tejas Mark I, which would galvanize HAL and the supply chains into activity. While releasing Rs 1,500 crore to HAL, instructions must be issued that the production line must deliver six Tejas Mark I fighters in 2014, and hit its production target of ten fighters per year in 2015.
Production target = 10/year??? how are we going to find export orders with this limited production... Also for replacing the 200+ Mig 21's, we need atleast one squadron (17+) aircrafts rolled out of the Assembly lines...

It will be good to set the production targets at 25 crafts P.A. in line with HAL's negative buffer practice...
 

Kunal Biswas

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HAL will stick to the deadline on LCA and IJT MOs Defence

BANGALORE: Expressing confidence over the progress in Light Combat Aircraft and Intermediate Jet Trainer projects, Union Minister Jitendra Singh today said Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd would stick to its deadline.

"In last six months, lots of developments have happened, LCA has flown extensively and technical hiccups have been resolved; ....I can say HAL will stick to the deadline, IOCBSE 0.47 % (Initial Operation Clearance) for LCA is November and for IJT is December," Jitendra Singh, the minister of State for Defence told reporters here.

"IOC for IJT is December but there may be one or two months delay. Some of the seepage is due to weather, as there have been rains in Karnataka, so we have not been able to test the aircraft," he added.

Complimenting the IAF ( Indian Air force), HAL and ADA (Aeronautical Development Agency) for the work they have put in, he said "we will have a quality product."

On the query whether the IAF is keen on having an indigenous trainer developed by HAL, the minister said, "It is not the matter of who is keen to do what, IAF wants best and quality product on time; operationally they want a product which has long life. Now it is for HAL to satisfy all these conditions laid down by IAF."
 
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