ADA Tejas (LCA) News and Discussions

[Kunal Biswas]

 

[Kunal Biswas]

 

[Kunal Biswas]

 

[Kunal Biswas]

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Credit of scans : Dr Somnath..

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Credit of scans : Dr Somnath..

 

[ersakthivel]

people who are arguing that long range bvrs from any 5th gen fighter will finish off LCA should go this page and read some "HOME TRUTHS" about long range bvrs. And the case for large number of good quality fighters and the myths of "SUPER HIGH AOA" and,"SUPER CRUISE" are busted.

http://www.vayuaerospace.in/images1/Selected Articles Backup/A_case_for_simpler_fighters.pdf

How all these fancy kill ratios of bvrs are based on the hit of one UNTRAINED older version of MIG-27 pilot with no latest warning devices are on board.

All the advertised ranges are for targets that have no warnings and keeps on comming like a dumb duck straight on.If the targeted fighter turns around and starts escape manouevers the advertised range is just 25% of original range.

It explicitly says that once the targeted fighters turns around and starts ecape manoeuvers it's effective range in HIGH ALTITUDE is just 20 kms in place of the advertised 70 kms. A three fourth reduction in missile range.

ALSO in low altitude it translates to 17 km for a target that keeps on comming and just 3 km for a turning target!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Also the super cruise nonsense once you go past mach 0.8 and start your fancy super cruising the surface temp of the fighter reaches 100 deg more than the ambient and it becomes an easy target for heat seekers.

Also in those fancy high AOAs the fighter gets very low on energy and any practical usage is limited.

The famed thrust vectoring's primary purpose is to stabilize the fighters at low altitudes.A mundane task.This is done because these heavy masssive weight. That's their primary purpose.

So anyone can red this link and get a good idea regarding these "FANCY TOYS", ehich cannot replace the quantitatively high good qualith fighters like tejas.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

5th gen ( 'Gen ' US terminology ) can be dealt with 4th gen or 4.5gn fighters, Not to forget that during Cope India F-15 was conformed lock on by a MIG-21 bison, A well updated Fighter can take on other fighters in technical scene..

As far as LCA is concerned its a very stealthy Jet which incorporate internal ECM suit as well as ECM Pod to evade radars, It have a good radar with ranges of 140km and can mount various BVRs, Presently its integration with Debry and Astra will be in future also French BVR can be mounted..

 

[EzioAltaïr]

people who are arguing that long range bvrs from any 5th gen fighter will finish off LCA should go this page and read some "HOME TRUTHS" about long range bvrs. And the case for large number of good quality fighters and the myths of "SUPER HIGH AOA" and,"SUPER CRUISE" are busted.

http://www.vayuaerospace.in/images1/Selected Articles Backup/A_case_for_simpler_fighters.pdf

How all these fancy kill ratios of bvrs are based on the hit of one UNTRAINED older version of MIG-27 pilot with no latest warning devices are on board.

All the advertised ranges are for targets that have no warnings and keeps on comming like a dumb duck straight on.If the targeted fighter turns around and starts escape manouevers the advertised range is just 25% of original range.

It explicitly says that once the targeted fighters turns around and starts ecape manoeuvers it's effective range in HIGH ALTITUDE is just 20 kms in place of the advertised 70 kms. A three fourth reduction in missile range.

ALSO in low altitude it translates to 17 km for a target that keeps on comming and just 3 km for a turning target!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Also the super cruise nonsense once you go past mach 0.8 and start your fancy super cruising the surface temp of the fighter reaches 100 deg more than the ambient and it becomes an easy target for heat seekers.

Also in those fancy high AOAs the fighter gets very low on energy and any practical usage is limited.

The famed thrust vectoring's primary purpose is to stabilize the fighters at low altitudes.A mundane task.This is done because these heavy masssive weight. That's their primary purpose.

So anyone can red this link and get a good idea regarding these "FANCY TOYS", ehich cannot replace the quantitatively high good qualith fighters like tejas.

BVRs are not the be all and end all, but if a 5th gen can attack Tejas with BVRs, and the same time, Tejas cannot attack the 5th gen, then we all know who is gonna win. However it should be noted that Tejas' tiny size and use of composites has (unintentionally or intentionally) caused it to gain a bit of stealth. It's RCS is very low, and with a coat of Radar Absorbent Paint it can be a stealth fighter. However the 5th gen is still superior.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Who ever attack first is more important, LCA have its own advantages due to its design..

Nerveless present LCA is not good as new fighters coming out which are technically advance than LCA..

BVRs are not the be all and end all, but if a 5th gen can attack Tejas with BVRs, and the same time, Tejas cannot attack the 5th gen,

 

[EzioAltaïr]

Who ever attack first is more important, LCA have its own advantages due to its design..

Nerveless present LCA is not good as new fighters coming out which are technically advance than LCA..

How stealthy is the LCA exactly? And how does it compare to aircraft like, say JF-17 or J-10?

 

[Kunal Biswas]

How stealthy is the LCA exactly? And how does it compare to aircraft like, say JF-17 or J-10?

I am not going to compare this vs that..

But About LCA stealth :

1. LCA employs LOW OBSERVABILITY in its design..

Giving its dimension and its aerodynamics its already have small RCS..


------------------------

2. ITO indium tin oxide coating :

A window member composed of a transparent resin or inorganic glass with a transparent conducting film such as gold or ITO (indium tin oxide) coated thereon, is used as an electromagnetic wave shield window for stealth aircraft. Applying such transparent conducting film enables, while maintaining transparency to visible radiation, both a radio wave stealth property which scatters radio waves in various directions so as not to be detected by radar, and an electromagnetic wave shield property which prevents harmful electromagnetic waves, except for visible radiation, from invasion into an aircraft.

-------------------------------

3. ECW Suit :

This divided into two parts:

a.Internal
b.External


Internal:

Consist of RWR & CMDS..

-------------------------------------

External:

ECM Pod :

Self-Protection Electronic Counter Measures (ECM) pod designed to enhance the survivability of fighter aircraft. This ECM Pod is effective against modern radar guided weapon systems. The ECM Pod is capable of simultaneously suppressing radar systems.

>>>>>>>>>>

In Detail :

Electronic warfare support:

situational awareness, threat recognition, or EM targeting, they also serve the purpose of Electronic Warfare surveillance

-------

Electronic attack

involves the use of electromagnetic energy, or counter-electromagnetic radiation weapons to attack personnel, facilities, or equipment with the intention of directly affecting, degrading, neutralizing, or destroying an enemy's combat capability

------

Electronic Protection

involves actions taken to protect personnel, facilities, and equipment from any effects of friendly or enemy use of the electromagnetic spectrum that degrade, neutralize, or destroy friendly combat capability. Jamming is not part of EP, it is an EA measure.

---------------------------------------------

4.Use of Composite materiel, Which further reduce RCS.

Non-metallic airframe

Dielectric composites are more transparent to radar, whereas electrically conductive materials such as metals and carbon fibers reflect electromagnetic energy incident on the material's surface. Composites may also contain ferrites to optimize the dielectric and magnetic properties of a material for its application.

 

[EzioAltaïr]

I am not going to compare this vs that..

But About LCA stealth :

1. LCA employs LOW OBSERVABILITY in its design..

Giving its dimension and its aerodynamics its already have small RCS..


------------------------

2. ITO indium tin oxide coating :

A window member composed of a transparent resin or inorganic glass with a transparent conducting film such as gold or ITO (indium tin oxide) coated thereon, is used as an electromagnetic wave shield window for stealth aircraft. Applying such transparent conducting film enables, while maintaining transparency to visible radiation, both a radio wave stealth property which scatters radio waves in various directions so as not to be detected by radar, and an electromagnetic wave shield property which prevents harmful electromagnetic waves, except for visible radiation, from invasion into an aircraft.

-------------------------------

3. ECW Suit :

This divided into two parts:

a.Internal
b.External


Internal:

Consist of RWR & CMDS..

-------------------------------------

External:

ECM Pod :

Self-Protection Electronic Counter Measures (ECM) pod designed to enhance the survivability of fighter aircraft. This ECM Pod is effective against modern radar guided weapon systems. The ECM Pod is capable of simultaneously suppressing radar systems.

>>>>>>>>>>

In Detail :

Electronic warfare support:

situational awareness, threat recognition, or EM targeting, they also serve the purpose of Electronic Warfare surveillance

-------

Electronic attack

involves the use of electromagnetic energy, or counter-electromagnetic radiation weapons to attack personnel, facilities, or equipment with the intention of directly affecting, degrading, neutralizing, or destroying an enemy's combat capability

------

Electronic Protection

involves actions taken to protect personnel, facilities, and equipment from any effects of friendly or enemy use of the electromagnetic spectrum that degrade, neutralize, or destroy friendly combat capability. Jamming is not part of EP, it is an EA measure.

---------------------------------------------

4.Use of Composite materiel, Which further reduce RCS.

Non-metallic airframe

Dielectric composites are more transparent to radar, whereas electrically conductive materials such as metals and carbon fibers reflect electromagnetic energy incident on the material's surface. Composites may also contain ferrites to optimize the dielectric and magnetic properties of a material for its application.

Ok I get it, not a vs thread. Sorry to have asked in the first place about that.

Good to know that the LCA has good stealth. It means it can fight well.

 

[p2prada]

How stealthy is the LCA exactly? And how does it compare to aircraft like, say JF-17 or J-10?

Not one bit stealthy.

Nothing is known about Chinese aircraft beyond a few specs to compare.

 

[EzioAltaïr]

Not one bit stealthy.

Nothing is known about Chinese aircraft beyond a few specs to compare.

Not one bit stealthy? Didn't you see the extensive description Kunal posted up there?

 

[ersakthivel]

BVRs are not the be all and end all, but if a 5th gen can attack Tejas with BVRs, and the same time, Tejas cannot attack the 5th gen, then we all know who is gonna win. However it should be noted that Tejas' tiny size and use of composites has (unintentionally or intentionally) caused it to gain a bit of stealth. It's RCS is very low, and with a coat of Radar Absorbent Paint it can be a stealth fighter. However the 5th gen is still superior.

Tejas can attack the radar tracking craft of any of the 5gen group with same missiles. So at it's most critical part of sortie 5th gen is as vulnerable to tejas as tejas is vulnerable to 5th gen, Because a high number of bvrs fired in the direction of tracking radar will force the 5th gen tracking and lock giving fighter to break lock and evade. The bvrs are dual seeker types. They can be fired at the direction of tracking radar with lock on after launch mode. Once it nears the targrt it will switch to heat seeking mode to lock on.If stealth ucavs with irst payloads precede LCA group they can easily give lock on to tejas bvrsAnd if evasive action is taken by LCAs the advertised 120 km range will be reduced to 30 kms or so.

That is why vayu magazine article I quoted earlier says it is foolish to believe bvrs will kill all.

If LCA dives to a lower altitude while evading this range will further shrink to 20 odd kms. All this without any mention of counter measures of ew crafts in LCA group, If that is included this BVR bluff will be called in future air battles.

That is why having a high number of TEJAS like contemproary low wing loading high agility aircrafts are so vital to the defense of india.

Putting all the money in white elephants and having a fewer of them for air combat will result in your bvr bluff being called in future air war.

It is good to have PAKFAs and AMCAS , but they are not the be all and end all of the air war.They will perform much specialized strike roles with elan. But they cannot substitute the huge number of 4th gen needed for close combat. All 5th gen fighters will have less opyimization for close combat than 4th gen due to trade offs being made for stealth shaping. So they cannot be risked and pushed into close combat with a higher number of 4th gen. Preserving them will be the priority of any air force.

The moment one f-117 was shot down over serbia by a P-81 radar based ground SAM unit the Americans withdrew the stealths.

A robust 4th gen fleet is inevitable for the defense of your airspace.

.

 

[ersakthivel]

Not one bit stealthy? Didn't you see the extensive description Kunal posted up there?

It has the lowest RCS amongst the 4th gens in the world. It will be improved further in MK-II

 

[EzioAltaïr]

Tejas can attack the radar tracking craft of any of the 5gen group with same missiles. So at it's most critical part of sortie 5th gen is as vulnerable to tejas as tejas is vulnerable to 5th gen, Because a high number of bvrs fired in the direction of tracking radar will force the 5th gen tracking and lock giving fighter to break lock and evade. The bvrs are dual seeker types. They can be fired at the direction of tracking radar with lock on after launch mode. Once it nears the targrt it will switch to heat seeking mode to lock on.If stealth ucavs with irst payloads precede LCA group they can easily give lock on to tejas bvrsAnd if evasive action is taken by LCAs the advertised 120 km range will be reduced to 30 kms or so.

That is why vayu magazine article I quoted earlier says it is foolish to believe bvrs will kill all.

If LCA dives to a lower altitude while evading this range will further shrink to 20 odd kms. All this without any mention of counter measures of ew crafts in LCA group, If that is included this BVR bluff will be called in future air battles.

That is why having a high number of TEJAS like contemproary low wing loading high agility aircrafts are so vital to the defense of india.

Putting all the money in white elephants and having a fewer of them for air combat will result in your bvr bluff being called in future air war.

It is good to have PAKFAs and AMCAS , but they are not the be all and end all of the air war.They will perform much specialized strike roles with elan. But they cannot substitute the huge number of 4th gen needed for close combat. All 5th gen fighters will have less opyimization for close combat than 4th gen due to trade offs being made for stealth shaping. So they cannot be risked and pushed into close combat with a higher number of 4th gen. Preserving them will be the priority of any air force.

The moment one f-117 was shot down over serbia by a P-81 radar based ground SAM unit the americans withdrew the stealths.They are there for specialized roles only.That's why USAF limited F-22s to 200 odd in numbers but still producing F-18s and F-15 s.That's why there is so much criticism of F-35( because of it's stealth optimization it's specs are very bad)
all over the net.
A robust 4th gen fleet is inevitable for the defense of your airspace.

.

Yeah, BVR ranges are greatly exaggerated. What most guys don't realise is that the range they advertise is in ideal conditions, plane flying at flight ceiling, target does not take any evasive action, etc. But the main advantage the 5th Gens have over 4th Gens is that they can fire BVRs without fear of retaliation.

However it's still possible to defeat stealth aircraft, through use of high wavelength passive radars, and getting a lock during the brief moment that they open their weapon bays, and compromise their stealth completely.

4th Gens are important, mainly 'cause they are cheaper, easier to manufacture, and if you lose your fleet, you can rebuild it easily.

 

[ersakthivel]

Squadrons that moved from Migs to MKI.

No 8 Squadron (Mig-21 to MKI)
No 30 Squadron (Mig-21 to MKI)
No 31 Squadron (A few posts back I mentioned they moved from Mig-27s but that's wrong) (Mig-23 to MKI)
No 2 Squadron (Mig-27 to MKI)

3 other squadrons had no aircraft when the MKI squadrons were formed. No 2, 20, 24 have MKI squadrons and were formed from scratch after being disbanded.

These were just replacement aircraft for the squadrons and don't necessarily relate to what aircraft were actually replaced at a tactical level. The aircraft they directly replaced are as below:

They are all located in AFSs - Pune, Bareilly, Tezpur, Chabua, Halwara and Kailakunda.

MKIs moved to Halwara replaced 1 Mig-21 squadron and 1 Mig-23 squadron.
MKIs moved to Chabua replaced 2 Mig-21 squadrons.
MKIs moved to Tezpur replaced 2 Mig-21s squadrons.
MKIs moved to Kalaikunda replaced 1 Mig-21squadron.

Bareilly AFS had a squadron of Mig-21s and Mig-25s. MKIs replaced the Mig-21 while another squadron was moved to Kalaikunda(No 2).
Lohegaon(Pune) AFS is a different story. They have a lot of aircraft. Mig-21s, Jaguars, Mig-29s and MKIs. The Mig-29s were moved to Hindon. The 2 MKI squadrons replaced the Mig-21s. Pune has 2 squadrons of MKIs.

Total 7 squadrons, all replaced Mig-21s directly.

In the future also, we know that IAF plans on equipping another squadron each in Tezpur, Chabua and Kalaikunda for a total of 6 MKI squadrons in the NE.

Rather than squadron numbers , I was talking about the capability of craft. Nobody is going to modify jags and MIG-27s to carry BRAHMOS. It is done on sukhoi. That's why I said, the sukhois will do both air to air and air to ground with out any escorts. That cannot surely be done by jags and Mig-27s, better than sukhois. The LCA wil be capable of doing everything the mirage can do. The weapon loads may not match MIRAGE but it will be more in numbers. And while doing precision strikes and dropping normal non LGB bombs it needs no escorts. That frees up heavy fighters like mig-29 for other duties.

 

[p2prada]

Not one bit stealthy? Didn't you see the extensive description Kunal posted up there?

I posted LCA's RCS info as compared to other aircraft. And I also posted two ways on how aircraft without internal bays can carry stealth optimised weapons, but dear Mr Biswas deleted it saying "Not a this vs that thread, Open another thread to do so.."

Just because it is claimed to have low RCS does not mean it has, what is universally defined as, "low" RCS.

LCA is a shining gold plated truck on a radar.

I can post that same thing again, but it will be deleted.