A Paper Dragon: China's armed forces

Redhawk

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Ok, what do you mean peasant cultures and peasant societies?
Exactly what it says. I don't know how good your English comprehension is, but any native English speaker or anyone who is competent in English as a second or foreign language would know and understand exactly what I mean. I suggest you look it up. I'm not going to spend the better part of an hour trying to explain it to you.
 
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Ray

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Taiwan and Singapore is not under control of PRC , but they do recognize they are Hans.
They came in the Approx 19th Century and by that time they had been Sinicised.

What did you expect them to call themselves? Japanese?



Chinese coolies were driven by poverty in China to seek a better life in Singapore. The immigration of Chinese coolies was high between the periods of 1823 to 1891 after Singapore became a free port, between 1910 to 1911 before the first World War and between 1926 to 1927, soon after the war. Coolie emigration decreased after 1927 because of the economic depression, followed by the Japanese occupation and then the World War II. Coolie trade never peaked after this and most immigrants after World War II were skilled labour.

Coolies worked as rickshaw pullers, trishaw riders and farmers. They were employed in mines, ports, in rubber and other plantations, in clearing jungles and on construction sites. They did back-breaking tasks such as loading and unloading cargo and dulang washing or tin ore mining under the scorching sun. It was a common sight in early Singapore to see coolies carrying gunny sacks filled with commodities such as spices and sugar near the Singapore river.

The newly arrived coolie recruit was called sin kheh which meant "new arrival" in Hokkien.

Ethnic Chinese in Singapore tend to identify themselves primarily as Singaporeans (s 新加坡人, t 新加坡人, p Xīnjiāpōrén) and only secondarily as Chinese.

Most of the Chinese in Singapore belong to several cultural groups, mostly from the southeastern coast of China in the provinces of Fujian, Guangdong and Hainan. The Hoklo, Teochew, and Cantonese together form more than three-quarters of the Chinese population. The Hakka, Hainanese, and other groups account for most of the remainder. These are generally the descendants of the free and indentured immigrants from southern China during the 19th and early half of 20th century and are typically known as "'native' Singaporean Chinese" (s 新加坡本地华人, t 新加坡本地華人, p Xīnjiāpōběndì Huárén). The 1990s and early 21st century saw Singapore experience a third wave of migration from different parts of China.

Sources

and we know how Han the Southern Han are! ;)
 
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CCP

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They came in the 19th Century and by that time they had been Sinicised.

What did you expect them to call themselves? Japanese?



Chinese coolies were driven by poverty in China to seek a better life in Singapore. The immigration of Chinese coolies was high between the periods of 1823 to 1891 after Singapore became a free port, between 1910 to 1911 before the first World War and between 1926 to 1927, soon after the war. Coolie emigration decreased after 1927 because of the economic depression, followed by the Japanese occupation and then the World War II. Coolie trade never peaked after this and most immigrants after World War II were skilled labour.

Coolies worked as rickshaw pullers, trishaw riders and farmers. They were employed in mines, ports, in rubber and other plantations, in clearing jungles and on construction sites. They did back-breaking tasks such as loading and unloading cargo and dulang washing or tin ore mining under the scorching sun. It was a common sight in early Singapore to see coolies carrying gunny sacks filled with commodities such as spices and sugar near the Singapore river.

The newly arrived coolie recruit was called sin kheh which meant "new arrival" in Hokkien.

Ethnic Chinese in Singapore tend to identify themselves primarily as Singaporeans (s 新加坡人, t 新加坡人, p Xīnjiāpōrén) and only secondarily as Chinese.

Most of the Chinese in Singapore belong to several cultural groups, mostly from the southeastern coast of China in the provinces of Fujian, Guangdong and Hainan. The Hoklo, Teochew, and Cantonese together form more than three-quarters of the Chinese population. The Hakka, Hainanese, and other groups account for most of the remainder. These are generally the descendants of the free and indentured immigrants from southern China during the 19th and early half of 20th century and are typically known as "'native' Singaporean Chinese" (s 新加坡本地华人, t 新加坡本地華人, p Xīnjiāpōběndì Huárén). The 1990s and early 21st century saw Singapore experience a third wave of migration from different parts of China.

Sources
Han Chinese
DNA analysis[edit]
Y-chromosome haplogroup O3 is a common DNA marker in Han Chinese, as it appeared in China in prehistoric times.
Han Chinese - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

74% Han Chinese contain same Y- DNA.
So, only 26% of them are "Sinicised".

Haplogroup O-M122 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 

Redhawk

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There are no permanent friends or enemies, but permanent interests in international relations.
Quite true, but there are long-term friends and allies that coincide with permanent interests. My own country is a good example: Australia and the United States have been allies since 1942 and it has served both countries' permanent interests well.
 

Ray

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Ok, what do you mean peasant cultures and peasant societies?
Developing along the same lines as many other nations of the world, the Chinese people (here we refer mainly to the Hans) went through many thousands of years of life in classless primitive communes. Some 4,000 years have gone by since the collapse of these primitive communes and the transition to class society, which took the form first of slave and then of feudal society.

It was only in 1978 China's government initiated a major change in the agricultural economy. It began a rapid transition from communal agriculture to the household responsibility system, which returned the responsibilities and incentives associated with farming to the farmer rather than the commune. This was the beginning of the market-friendly reforms that led to the transformation of agriculture, industry, and transport in a remarkably short time.

Since China has been predominantly an agriculture economy based nation, the peasants were the real drivers of Chinese history and fate. That is why it is said that China was predominantly a peasant society.
 
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Ray

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Han Chinese
DNA analysis[edit]
Y-chromosome haplogroup O3 is a common DNA marker in Han Chinese, as it appeared in China in prehistoric times.
Han Chinese - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

74% Han Chinese contain same Y- DNA.
So, only 26% of them are "Sinicised".

Haplogroup O-M122 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Read the Wiki source of yours with more details to see the mirror that shines to indicate what you think is not what it says.

This might help from another source.
Han Chinese Y Chromosome Test Results

This is not shocking, I've seen many test results that show Northern Chinese tend to group with North East Asians (Japanese and Koreans) and Southern Chinese tend to group more with Southeast Asians. The populations also have distinct (but often overlapping) appearances. Many of my Chinese friends have told me it is due to diet and climate. I do not think so.

The early genetic research (The History and Geography of Human Genes, 1996) of Dr. Luigi Luca Cavalli-Sforza showed that Northern Chinese could be grouped with other Northeast Asians (Koreans, Tungusic groups, Japanese) and that Southern Chinese grouped more with Southeast Asians, making the Han Chinese aggregate an intermediate population between the two, which matches their location geographic location. This new report gives us some detail as to the way this population cline occurred.

Based on what I know of Chinese history, Southern China was settled by the Han much later than the North and the people in the South were considered "barbarian" referred to as the various types of "Yue" (known as the 100 Yue) in later times. Eventually the people region that became Guangdong and North Vietnam were referred to as (Nan Yue, or South Viet). Most of these people were likely Austroasiatic speakers in origin (like present day Vietnamese and Cambodians). Since Northern Vietnam (Annam) was part of China on and off for over 1,000 years; and the south, by the end of Chinese colonization was controlled by Champa, a Malay people (Austronesian).

As far as I know there was a massive influx of Han Chinese into the region during the Song Dynasty due to Barbarian pressure in the north. I know assimilation was fairly complete by the Tang Dynasty as Cantonese speakers often call themselves "Tong (Tang in Mandarin) People" and talk of giving their children "Tong names". They also still refer to their province and themselves as "Yue" to this day. I'm guessing by the Late Tang, the Sinization of the area was complete, but for Annam. Vietnam became independent from China after the disintegration of the Tang, since the "Viet or Yue" people lived in what is now Guangdong as well, I'm guessing by that time the people in Guangdong were mostly Sinized, and considered themselves Han Chinese, but most of the people further South did not.

Also, "South," in China is the area from Shanghai down to the border of the Southeast Asian nations of Laos and Vietnam.

Other nonHan ethnicities lived in the South, such as the Lao/Thai (Tai-Kadai language group) folks also came from Central China and were pushed South by the Han, they still have relatives in modern China like the Zhuang and Dong peoples.

To wrap it up, it is not shocking that Han men (like many men before them all over the world) would move to an area and take it over, while enslaving, killing, or running off the native men using their superior technology and social organization. Then they would marry, rape, or concubine the local women. Men, historically, are not picky about who they have sexual relations with. In a desperate spot any woman (even a barbarian) will do.


This new study provides more detail to earlier studies whose results where along the same lines.



Hat tip to Dienekes:

European Journal of Human Genetics advance online publication 23 January 2008; doi: 10.1038/sj.ejhg.5201998
A spatial analysis of genetic structure of human populations in China reveals distinct difference between maternal and paternal lineages

Fuzhong Xue et al.

Analyses of archeological, anatomical, linguistic, and genetic data suggested consistently the presence of a significant boundary between the populations of north and south in China. However, the exact location and the strength of this boundary have remained controversial. In this study, we systematically explored the spatial genetic structure and the boundary of north–south division of human populations using mtDNA data in 91 populations and Y-chromosome data in 143 populations. Our results highlight a distinct difference between spatial genetic structures of maternal and paternal lineages. A substantial genetic differentiation between northern and southern populations is the characteristic of maternal structure, with a significant uninterrupted genetic boundary extending approximately along the Huai River and Qin Mountains north to Yangtze River. On the paternal side, however, no obvious genetic differentiation between northern and southern populations is revealed.
Han Chinese Y Chromosome Test Results | The Postnational Monitor
According to the recent report by the scientists in Beijing, northern Han Chinese are genetically way different from southern Han Chinese (Guangdong, Guangxi, Fujian, Taiwan, Hong Kong, Macau and Hainan). Read:
http://news.chinatim...0900094,00.html

There is only cultural affinity between these two groups. In fact, southern Han Chinese are more genetically similar to minority groups like Vietnamese while northern Han Chinese are closer to minority groups like Mongols than with each other.

Now it seems that the theory "Taiwanese are not Chinese" has some grounds.

http://www.chinese-forums.com/index...erence-between-northern-han-and-southern-han/
 
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Redhawk

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Developing along the same lines as many other nations of the world, the Chinese people (here we refer mainly to the Hans) went through many thousands of years of life in classless primitive communes. Some 4,000 years have gone by since the collapse of these primitive communes and the transition to class society, which took the form first of slave and then of feudal society.

It was only in 1978 China's government initiated a major change in the agricultural economy. It began a rapid transition from communal agriculture to the household responsibility system, which returned the responsibilities and incentives associated with farming to the farmer rather than the commune. This was the beginning of the market-friendly reforms that led to the transformation of agriculture, industry, and transport in a remarkably short time.

Since China has been predominantly an agriculture economy based nation, the peasants were the real drivers of Chinese history and fate. That is why it is said that China was predominantly a peasant society.
There's more to the statement that Chinese culture and society is a peasant culture and society than is given above. Peasant culture and peasant society connotes and evokes overtones of a certain backwardness, ignorance, boorishness, rudeness, aggressive self-centredness, vindictiveness, and a general absence or lack of civilised behaviour.
 

Ray

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There's more to the statement that Chinese culture and society is a peasant culture and society than is given above. Peasant culture and peasant society connotes and evokes overtones of a certain backwardness, ignorance, boorishness, rudeness, aggressive self-centredness, vindictiveness, and a general absence or lack of civilised behaviour.
I did not want to start a controversy with the Chinese posters.

as it they think I am a 'capitalist roader' and a 'splittist' and the 'fifth element' of the 'Gang of Four' i.e. the invisible one who actually was the Kingpin!

 

Redhawk

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I did not want to start a controversy with the Chinese posters.

as it they think I am a 'capitalist roader' and a 'splittist' and the 'fifth element' of the 'Gang of Four' i.e. the invisible one who actually was the Kingpin!

Would you prefer I delete my post? Hang on! I can't delete my posts. Management would have to do it for me.
 

Ray

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Would you prefer I delete my post? Hang on! I can't delete my posts. Management would have to do it for me.
"The Moving Finger writes; and, having writ,
Moves on: nor all thy Piety nor Wit
Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line,
Nor all thy Tears wash out a Word of it."

Let it remain.

Ah, fill the Cup: -- What boots it to repeat
How time is slipping underneath our Feet.
Unborn TO-MORROW, and dead YESTERDAY,
Why fret about them if TO-DAY be sweet?
 

Redhawk

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"The Moving Finger writes; and, having writ,
Moves on: nor all thy Piety nor Wit
Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line,
Nor all thy Tears wash out a Word of it."

Let it remain.

Ah, fill the Cup: -- What boots it to repeat
How time is slipping underneath our Feet.
Unborn TO-MORROW, and dead YESTERDAY,
Why fret about them if TO-DAY be sweet?
Very well, Ray. I shall heed the advice of FitzGerald's Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam.
 

Ray

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Very well, Ray. I shall heed the advice of FitzGerald's Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam.
One aspect of life one must realise that one cannot convince the mind controlled to open up their mind to reality beyond the control of their handlers.

Whatever I have produced has been said an umpteen number of times, but they cunningly think others are suffering from dementia and Alzhiemer's and so they push it in once again, hoping that it will pass muster.

Yet, one has to admire them for their perseverance and cunning.
 

Redhawk

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Taiwanese are not Han Chinese majority.

This will indicate what the Taiwanese are
The True History of Taiwan

By Dr. Sim Kiantek

The True History of Taiwan

As far as China being 92% Han is another bogus myth spun by the overactive spinmeisters amongst the Han, ancient and new.

Han people were classified as 'inner people' (nei ren) and 'outer people' (non Han) whom they called 'barbarians' (wei ren).

After capturing the areas which were Non Han, they roadrolled the people captured to accept Han culture and identity through the process called Sinicisation.

The 'barbarians' who accepted Han culture and became Han erasing their original identity and culture were called by the Han as shufan (cooked barbarians) and those who did not willing become Han as shengfan (raw barbarians)

'Barbarians' were given generic names in the Chinese classics and history: The Yi barbarians to the East, the Man to the South, the Rong to the West and Di to the North.

Until 1930, the names of the outgroups (wai ren were commonly written in characters with an animal radical:
1. the Di, the tribe to the North were linked to the Dog.
2. the Man and the Min were characterised with Reptiles.
3. the Qiang was written with a Sheep radical.

Link

Imagine the humiliation they were subjected to till they accepted being 'cooked barbarians' and eventual Han!

It is time we realised the huge faking that the Mainland China and the Chinese historians have faked on the world that Chinese people are 92% Han. This figure is a fudged mirage perpetuated because of the cultural and social genocide that signatures the idea that China consist of Han people.
I see, Ray. I'm willing to read any reasoned and reasonable argument.
 
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Otm Shank2

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@J20!

youre right, PRC have handled the taiwan issue admirably. The PRC's ability to navigate through many difficult diplomatic situations like Taiwan, Tibet and the falun gong to make them nonissues and rarely mentioned in the west shows you have many adept statesmen.

India may not agree with PRC on many things but india can certainly learn a tremendous amount especially on not allowing outsiders to meddle in your territorial sovereignty or internal issues.
 
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Redhawk

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@J20!

youre right, PRC have handled the taiwan issue admirably. The PRC's ability to navigate through many difficult diplomatic situations like Taiwan, Tibet and the falun gong to make them nonissues and rarely mentioned in the west shows you have many adept statesmen.

India may not agree with PRC on many things but india can certainly learn a tremendous amount especially on not allowing outsiders to meddle in your territorial sovereignty or internal issues.
Who's meddling in India's territorial or internal issues? Please explain.
 
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rock127

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Well, you must like those Chinese army which is a few hundreds km away from New Dehli. We deployed short range missiles at Aksai Chin that cover whole north India to help you sleep better at night.

PS. We would like to trade our claim over AP(we call it South Tibet) with Aksai Chin anytime.
Try attacking India and see all of the military balance in Asia changed again and China enjoying it's status it had 50 years ago as a struggling economy.Seems like you can't digest such economy boom and want to destroy yourself.

Show your threats and aggression to someone who can be so scared.First you pitch your tents and when some aggression is shown back you run away packing up tents having tail between legs. :lol:

A REAL TIGER don't do like this and you are indeed a PAPER TIGER. :truestory:
 
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CCP

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Show your threats and aggression to someone who can be so scared.First you pitch your tents and when some aggression is shown back you run away packing up tents having tail between legs. :lol:
Well, not before you destroy your own bunkers.
 

bose

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Try attacking India and see all of the military balance in Asia changed again and China enjoying it's status it had 50 years ago as a struggling economy.Seems like you can't digest such economy boom and want to destroy yourself.

Show your threats and aggression to someone who can be so scared.First you pitch your tents and when some aggression is shown back you run away packing up tents having tail between legs. :lol:

A REAL TIGER don't do like this and you are indeed a PAPER TIGER. :truestory:
We have seen the example of Chinese guts in 1971 and in 1987 ... They thought that they can frighten Indians with their troops movement along the border...

China will never attack unless they have 5:1 numerical superiority...
 

rock127

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Well, not before you destroy your own bunkers.
How about the childish writing on the stone in night and then running away back in your own bunkers? :lol:

Only a PAPER TIGER can do it.

Try to attack India and see your economy thrown back where it deserves to be.

Try to take AP back which you claim all the time and lose whole of Tibet. :lol:

50 Cent trying his best to prove he is a tiger. :pound:
 

CCP

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We have seen the example of Chinese guts in 1971 and in 1987 ... They thought that they can frighten Indians with their troops movement along the border...

China will never attack unless they have 5:1 numerical superiority...
Yes, India is so brave to destroy its own bunkers.
 

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