Discussion in 'Military History' started by LurkerBaba, Apr 15, 2012.
What would have been the outcome of WW2 if USA and USSR did not participate ?
Japanese occupation of Indo-China and more Nankings in China. China's map altered to only the southern-south westerns part of today's china.
Nazi occupation of europe and consolidation of their rule. Britain crushed and India comes under Nazi/Jap occupation.
Indians then defeat both and save the world...
England would be run over the Nazi war machine, just like France. It wasn't a matter of it would be, but when. The geo-politics of the situation saved England from a swift defeat like France. Hitler's point of invading the USSR was to crush Stalin and force England into a treaty, and he would've crushed Stalin if America didn't start the lend-lease program with the USSR.
Without the lend-lease program to both the USSR and England both countries would be missing key war supplies, and would be crushed by a far superior war economy.
One thing is for Sure France and Britian would have never ever in a million years managed to hold back Germany and Japan.
The addition of Russia and USA where the only saving grace for the allies.
Hitler's plan was to get hold of Soviet resources, especially that of the Caucasian regions (oil), iron ore of the Magnitogorsk region, and a railway link to Japan, i.e. the Trans-Siberian Route.
The Japs were the most fanatic fighters,,much more zealous than any of their allies or opposition.
That was definitely the other great factor in his decision to invade. Hitler's war machine needed precious oil and couldn't rely solely on Romanian oil wells for much longer.
But in private he stated his purpose was to force England into a treaty by defeating the USSR, so that has to be taken into account as well. Hitler had many dreams of an England allied to Germany.
Obvious is Obvious..
One of the most overlooked player that did more to tip the whole World to a real "World War" than anybody else is the USSR. Just think for a second if Stalin did not agree to the Nazi proposal for invading Poland that later on came to be known as the infamous "Ribbentrop-Molotov Pact" (I would call it the "Pact of the Second Pan European War"). I believe that Nazi Germany would not have invaded POland as he cannot assure USSR's neutrality, since Poland had a defence pact with UK and FRance who would certainly aid the latter. Up until that time Hitler was not yet too confident about his forces as he has yet to defeat a major European power, his Blitzkrieg was still a little more than a nice theory while objectively his forces does not hold overwhelming technological advantage over the Western European powers or the Soviets (note that the best Nazi tank at that time was the Panzer 2 armed with a 2 cm cannon)...
The more interesting question should be, what if the Nazi-Soviet alliance survived (even only until mid-1943)?
I can no longer edit my earlier post.
Tough one @asianobserve
A neutral Soviet Union til 1943 would not have stopped Pearl Harbour .. am I correct ? So US still enters the arena in 1941. US had the power to win WW2 alone , no matter how big Germany could grow by eating Middle East, Northern Africa and even half of Iran.
In 1943, Red Army would probably have been stronger than the Red Army of 1941. Hard to estimate its chances against a somehow overstretched Wehrmacht (occupying so many countries is consuming resources too)
In the end ... the final question remains : who gets nukes first ?
Following is excerpt from a website which clearly points that in all the strategy Churchill Built America was the center of it
In 1938, Prime Minister Chamberlain signed the Munich Pact with Nazi leader Adolf Hitler thereby handing Czechoslovakia to Germany and regarded this “peace in our time”. In September 1939 with Hitler’s invasion of Poland that peace was shattered. Chamberlain declared war against Germany but proved ill-equipped in providing protection to Europe from Nazi invasion. After British forces failed to deter Nazi forces from taking over Norway in April 1940 and Hitler’s invasion of Holland, Belgium & Netherland. Chamberlain lost confidence and Churchill came into power.
On 13th may 1940 Churchill gave a famous speech “Blood, toil, tears, and sweat” and outlined new and bold plans for British resistance against Nazi Germany. In the initial year of the war, Britain was all but alone in his fight against Nazi in Europe but Churchill promised his country and the world that the British people would “never surrender.”
Part of belief in Britain’s survival was based on the conviction that the Soviet Union was the next target on Hitler’s list. Combined with intelligence and his own personal belief Churchill was convinced that Hitler was more interested in Stalin’s destruction than of Britain’s.
Also from the time, Churchill took office as the PM he realized that the only way to conclude the war was to drag the United States into it and making this his center of strategy. Despite the fact, Chamberlain didn’t establish any dialogue with the United States Churchill as soon as taking power developed a regular and intense correspondence with FDR. In his initial letter to Roosevelt showed a sense of urgency for securing assistance from the United States by warning of the consequences for the American security in case of the British defeat.
Following is the extract from Churchill’s letter to Roosevelt on May 15, 1940
“But I trust you realize, Mr.President, that the voice and force of the United States may count for nothing if they are withheld too long. You may have a completely subjugated, Nazified Europe established with astonishing swiftness, and the weight may be more than we can bear. All I ask now is that you should proclaim nonbelligerency, which would mean that you would help us with everything short of actually engaging armed forces”
After the American formal announcement to enter the war after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor on December 7, 1941. Churchill aide John Colville stated that the prime minister and American Ambassador John Gilbert Winant, who also supported the British, "sort of danced around the room together" as the United States would now enter the war, making a British victory likely. Churchill later wrote, "Being saturated and satiated with emotion and sensation, I went to bed and slept the sleep of the saved and thankful".
Within the days of Pearl Harbor attack, Churchill along with his military chiefs traveled to America in order to work with the American counterpart to develop a combined strategy for Europe as Hitler was posing as a grave threat to the world.
Churchill addressing the Joint Session of United States Congress
On December 26, 1941, Churchill for the first time gave a speech in the United States Congress and urged that Americans join Britain in the war.
Regarding the Japanese aggressors, he asked, "What kind of a people do they think we are? Is it possible that they do not realize that we shall never cease to persevere against them until they have been taught a lesson which they and the world will never forget?"
As for the German forces, "With proper weapons and proper organization, we can beat the life out of the savage Nazi." These "wicked men" who have brought evil forces into play must "know they will be called to terrible account if they cannot beat down by force of arms the peoples they have assailed."
It may come across as a simple sound bite, but the point of it was to link the United States and Britain into a single, allied front.
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