Why China failed in creating own brands

bose

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No offence here. When India's IT company can made the headline on the CNN front page, then we can start to compare India's IT with China.
Here is the Chinese cheaper version of Bill Gates and Steve Jobs..

China's Alibaba files for landmark IPO
China's Alibaba files for landmark IPO - May. 6, 2014
"Alibaba, arguably the world's biggest e-commerce company, filed paperwork on Tuesday that sets the stage for what could be the biggest initial public offering in U.S. history."

Tencent: China's hottest tech company
Tencent: China's hottest tech company - Jan. 8, 2014
"You'll find the answer in China, where Tencent has been spinning a web of mobile, telecom and online retail businesses that rank among the largest in the world."
My intension was not to put a China Vs India debate as who is bigger than whom, the problem faced by these countries are prety same although the context may differ...

My argument was to see an Indian who comes out of some innovative ideas,such as the ones from Microsoft or SAP or Oracle...
 

TrueSpirit1

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@TrueSpirit1

You are arguing that Indian IT cos are giving a fight to MNCs in some areas. And I repeat Wipro, Infosys are shitty brands.

The kind of work they do and do you know their billing rates ? :lol:

I think @LurkerBaba will make better and more articulate arguments here.

Cognizant's sales and marketing is excellent, and they are projecting themselves as an American company which is working for them. I was with a Congizant senior honcho last week. He was all praise for the young CEO.
@Singh Lets not argue on this, just for the sake of arguing. We do not teach Kunal Sir how to fire a rifle, right ?

Regarding, billing rates...let me just say, one of my KRA's is to work out the billing rates for our Architects in tandem with the finance guys. @LurkerBaba is but a young kid in this space, no offence intended.

You know my name & what not. Why don't you just do some googling to understand the work I have authored & published. That would lend you some insight where I am coming from. If I was permitted, I could have shared spreadsheets (each a couple of MB's) detailing the billing rates in system integration & consulting industry, but it is plain idiotic to go that far in making a point to some random, unknown people.

Now, having a low billing rate does not makes a brand any less appealing. In fact, a recessionary EU is lapping it up like anything. HCL & Wipro are winning contracts at a breakneck pace & are a formidable brands for their competitors.

The low-hanging fruits from tougher Continental EU as well the easier Nordics are going to these folks. US federal accounts are the last bastion to be conquered, but even they have been breached in part. Remember, I am particularly (but not exclusively) talking of IMS space, which was not even the forte of Indian players. It is not difficult to visualize what the scene in ADM looks like.

Please understand, this is B2B & not B2C, so you & I are not customers for these companies. Our brand-recognition w.r.t Indian IT players is absolutely inconsequential & irrelevant. What matters is, how these companies are perceived by their competitors & the clients & the fact is: Over the years, I (MNC IT players) have developed a grudging respect for these Indian players, even if to my discomfort. All IBM's & HP's have already tied-up with & outsourced their business (the few bigger contracts they win/retain) to these guys. Basically, sub-contracting is the norm all over.

Also, a lion's share of these TIO deals are divided in parts; where the EUC goes to MNC players with better quality onshore presence, the core work (back-end) T&T as well as RnM work invariably goes to Indian IT players.

Over 90% of Wipro & HCL's business is repeat business (i.e. from existing clients) so be it brand-recognition or brand-retention, Fortune 1000 clients have no qualms that you have, regarding these companies. Let us not even talk about TCS, as it has already scaled a different level & has become something else.

I would never work with any of these Indian companies due to cultural issues, but when it comes to winning contracts, like it or not, Indian IT companies are defining rules of the game (be it via billing rate, or any other leverage).

Btw, I do not know Infosys....as it is not in a major player in IMS space. So, I would not talk about it.
 
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TrueSpirit1

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Infosys is like a giant sweatshop in IT industry, it's big but low end.

Sent from my HUAWEI T8951 using Tapatalk 2
Completely agree. My point is simple: The rivals (IBM's & other service players) consider Indian IT players a formidable threat, as they are fast gobbling up increasingly bigger share of the pie.
 

TrueSpirit1

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@Singh, Just an FYI...

In the blossoming IMS domain: IaaS/PaaS Cloud & TIO which consistently rains moolah for TCS & HCL, Cognizant does not even have any SBU or even a established practice. They are an absolute non-entity in this realm & are not going to do anything in near future. Their domain-specialization is quite limited, somewhat like yesteryear's Tech Mahindra, before the merger completion with Mahindra Satyam.

Please ask your Cog-honcho, what does he plans to do about his Achilles heel. Or, is he already contended with the impressive numbers & believes he is future-ready, as well :) ?
 
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if being compared to India, China is certainly not low cost labor, otherwise manufacturing wont be shifted from China to India.

No intention to show off, but Chinese brands do enjoy more exposure in international market than Indian ones.

Sent from my HUAWEI T8951 using Tapatalk 2
Inda is a service economy. Can you name.one Chinese brand in the international limelight?
 
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Manufacturing is the basis, which service (tertiary) sectors are servicing and thriving on. All relatively HEALTHY leading economies have a strong manufacturing - Germany, Japan, France...

As u flag as American, I'd like to showcase another brand Indians/Americans are likely to pass by without noticing Chinese.

Shuanghui International and Smithfield Foods Agree to Strategic Combination, Creating a Leading Global Pork Enterprise (NYSE:SFD)


About Smithfield Foods





The same way as Lenovo acquiring IBM Thinkpad.
Interesting china and India have more or less adopted the same strategy of buying the
Brands than spending years creating them.
 

TrueSpirit1

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If you have Infosys, Wipro on your resume, I am told your chances of landing plum jobs is limited. But I am not in this sector anymore so can't say.
Not really....majority of Indians professionals start with these sweatshops...& eventually grow in accordance with their abilities & networking.

To reach places (Google, Amazon, BCG etc.), one has to be extremely smart (aptitude) to crack the extended round of interviews & be lucky, of course. Being at IIT/NIT's & IIM's campus is one sure-shot way. But, that is not the only way of reaching there.
 

TrueSpirit1

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Indians make upto 60% of the IBM ers globally, the largest IT company ...

Watch out for TCS where it reaches in next 5 years...

@nimo_cn Similarly, half of Capgemini guys are in India. And, so that is, for all IT services giants, except CSC.
But, of course, that does not make these brands as Indian.
 
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amoy

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Inda is a service economy. Can you name.one Chinese brand in the international limelight?
In service - COSCO - which many Indians again may have passed by ignoring

China Ocean Shipping (Group) Company (COSCO), one of the major multinational enterprises in the world, is China's largest and the world's leading Group specializing in global shipping, modern logistics and ship building and repairing, ranking the 327th in Fortune Global 500.
COSCO to invest additional $309m at Greek port |Companies |chinadaily.com.cn
SeaNews Turkey - 9,450-TEU Cosco Beijing makes first call at newly expanded Colombo CT


"The agreement seals the transition of the port of Piraeus into a new era, as this is the largest investment in crisis-stricken Greece," Varvitsiotis told the media.

He stressed that the new investment will create further 700 new job positions directly and some 1,500 indirectly in the country suffering from high unemployment rates over the past three years and deep recession.
 

Compersion

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Who owns all of the above PRC brands above. Is it private individuals - is it Government Agents - Is it Government owned.

Who owns all of the above Indian brands above.

The answer is that PRC people and individuals have failed in creating own brands in fact any significant company in PRC. Its a pity because the people of PRC are the reason why PRC company and brands do well but alas everything must be given to the Peoples Republic of China. Nothing wrong with that apparently.
 

amoy

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Who owns all of the above PRC brands above. Is it private individuals - is it Government Agents - Is it Government owned.

Who owns all of the above Indian brands above.

The answer is that PRC people and individuals have failed in creating own brands in fact any significant company in PRC. Its a pity because the people of PRC are the reason why PRC company and brands do well but alas everything must be given to the Peoples Republic of China. Nothing wrong with that apparently.
Alas, Have u really searched any profile of Chini companies I posted before rushing to make yourself a laughing stock?

For example Geely who acquired Volvo is a private company owned by Mr Li Shufu

Geely Boss Confirms Big New Volvo Flagship Sedan: Report | Reviews | Prices | Australian specifications
 

LurkerBaba

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@TrueSpirit1

You are arguing that Indian IT cos are giving a fight to MNCs in some areas. And I repeat Wipro, Infosys are shitty brands.

The kind of work they do and do you know their billing rates ? :lol:

I think @LurkerBaba will make better and more articulate arguments here.

Cognizant's sales and marketing is excellent, and they are projecting themselves as an American company which is working for them. I was with a Congizant senior honcho last week. He was all praise for the young CEO.
TCS, Infy, Wipro and most other IT service companies are crap. They're bodyshops with zero innovation. All they do is outsource shitty IT work to cheap labour. Crappy service based companies will never have brand value like Google, Facebook, Amazon or Microsoft.

However, there are a few Indian IT (product) companies with worldclass products eg:

- Browserstack
- inMobi

btw Chinese have their own search engines and social networks so we Indians need to STFU.

To reach places (Google, Amazon, BCG etc.), one has to be extremely smart (aptitude) to crack the extended round of interviews & be lucky, of course. Being at IIT/NIT's & IIM's campus is one sure-shot way.
Not really. Campus placements for some of these companies are actually tougher, the criterion is more stringent. Off-campus placements are easier. Amazon for eg has a very low barrier for entry (you have to crack their online interview to get a call).
 

Compersion

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Alas, Have u really searched any profile of Chini companies I posted before rushing to make yourself a laughing stock?

For example Geely who acquired Volvo is a private company owned by Mr Li Shufu

Geely Boss Confirms Big New Volvo Flagship Sedan: Report | Reviews | Prices | Australian specifications
who owns geely. do you have the skill and authorization to dwell into such things.

Zhejiang Geely Holding Group Co., Ltd.: Private Company Information - Businessweek

I only paraphrased what i said earlier because of the why PRC government list shares on the stock exchanges. Do you know the systematic process that PRC government has for PRC companies to list overseas and why. If you do please share that with everyone.

Also please do not take it to be a offence. In fact one can say PRC Government is business friendly and has setup and develop a lot of good business. I am not adding to my statement the number of failed business and bankruptcies and unprofitable ventures.

The PRC Government controls all of the Private and non-private PRC Companies. The PRC Government can decide tomorrow which company can be successful and which can fail because they control everything. It is not a bad thing in a planned economy.

*** Added later

The history of the Geely is fascinating. Worth a read starting from 1986.

Also saw some of the following images:





http://gemssty.com/2006/10/29/top-10-copycat-cars/

But that is in no way taking away the good acquisition of Volvo for the PRC Government.
 
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TrueSpirit1

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TCS, Infy, Wipro and most other IT service companies are crap. They're bodyshops with zero innovation. All they do is outsource shitty IT work to cheap labour. Crappy service based companies will never have brand value like Google, Facebook, Amazon or Microsoft.
This is a generalist statement from a layman. 6-7 years ago, even I would have thought on similar lines. Conventional wisdom. Easy on ears. But, now I can only scoff. Why ?

Because, I am paid to put myself in my clients' shoes & these sweatshops are my rivals who are outgunning us (MNC's) in every other deal. These bodyshops are highly successful business models & classic case-studies taught in Ecoles as well as IIM. Needless to say, some of these blue-chips have made millionaires of countless denizens from Indian middle-class.

It was more than a decade ago that IBM realized that there is real money to be made is in services, not products & today IBM is classified as primarily, a services company. IBM hardly has any traction in x86 space. It's hardware goes mostly where it is talking up the TIO or has tied up with partner winning the deal. Elsewhere, IBM hardware is lagging HP's & Dell's. Still, IBM works.

So, what does IBM really do ? Sub-contracting to middle-tier IT players. What does the rest of top-tier IT services players do ? Sub-contracting. So, what does everyone else do ? Copy IBM, what else.

What IBM does today is copied by HP's, Dell's & Fujitsu's tomorrow. So, what is wrong with that ? Nothing. It is a sustainable business model that has proved itself over decades.

However, there are a few Indian IT (product) companies with worldclass products eg:

- Browserstack
- inMobi
Worldclass products ? Can you define a world-class product ? How many registered patents do these companies have with USPTO ? Everyone realizes that such talk has been flavor of the moment for some time....Products.......innovation......next level. However, successful businesses need more than this.

Anyway, one can line up many more such Indian companies but have these companies proved their mettle yet ? They are not even listed.

I suggest, spend some time in the industry & if possible, do a regular MBA from an institute of repute. Successful business are never made on hype & thin air.

btw Chinese have their own search engines and social networks so we Indians need to STFU.
Fortunately, I do not have such massive inferiority complex & neither do I get carried away so easily because I deal with companies/clients/colleagues based in China, up, close & personal. Our strengths & weaknesses are different. Alibaba would be the first real Chinese technology brand with visibility in US.

Not really. Campus placements for some of these companies are actually tougher, the criterion is more stringent.
Just don't go by whatever you hear. Try it. Piece of cake.

Off-campus placements are easier. Amazon for eg has a very low barrier for entry (you have to crack their online interview to get a call).
BCG invariably hires IIT-ians from IIM's (you read it correct) with almost religious fervor. MS has the lowest entry barrier if you are getting into GTSC. But, when you are in MS's R&D division, then you have made it. Google's off-campus is no secret. You got to be really smart lateral thinker (literally, not just for the heck of it) to get into. On the contrary, Google does not even have any requirement for minimum academic CGPA, when they are land up in IIT's for hiring. It is in face-to-face rounds where the tricky ones are fired. Facebook is somewhat different because it insists on academics, as well.

Amazon in India mostly hires for entry-level/junior-level coding jobs & some sales roles with 40% variable component in CTC :) Cracking these are far from difficult. For a Sr. Architect (TOGAF) role, after all rounds of interviews are over, one needs to complete multiple scenario-based assignments over the weekend; & that is where majority of candidates give up.

If need be, ever, ask me & I would PM you the relevant contact for Amazon. No need of cracking any online interview. Straight-away face-2-face rounds.
 

LurkerBaba

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This is a generalist statement from a layman. 6-7 years ago, even I would have thought on similar lines. Conventional wisdom. Easy on ears. But, now I can only scoff. Why ?

Because, I am paid to put myself in my clients' shoes & these sweatshops are my rivals who are outgunning us (MNC's) in every other deal. These bodyshops are highly successful business models & classic case-studies taught in Ecoles as well as IIM. Needless to say, some of these blue-chips have made millionaires of countless denizens from Indian middle-class.

It was more than a decade ago that IBM realized that there is real money to be made is in services, not products & today IBM is classified as primarily, a services company. IBM hardly has any traction in x86 space. It's hardware goes mostly where it is talking up the TIO or has tied up with partner winning the deal. Elsewhere, IBM hardware is lagging HP's & Dell's. Still, IBM works.

So, what does IBM really do ? Sub-contracting to middle-tier IT players. What does the rest of top-tier IT services players do ? Sub-contracting. So, what does everyone else do ? Copy IBM, what else.

What IBM does today is copied by HP's, Dell's & Fujitsu's tomorrow. So, what is wrong with that ? Nothing. It is a sustainable business model that has proved itself over decades.



Worldclass products ? Can you define a world-class product ? How many registered patents do these companies have with USPTO ? Everyone realizes that such talk has been flavor of the moment for some time....Products.......innovation......next level. However, successful businesses need more than this.

Anyway, one can line up many more such Indian companies but have these companies proved their mettle yet ? They are not even listed.
k

I suggest, spend some time in the industry & if possible, do a regular MBA from an institute of repute. Successful business are never made on hype & thin air.
lol


BCG invariably hires IIT-ians from IIM's (you read it correct) with almost religious fervor. MS has the lowest entry barrier if you are getting into GTSC. But, when you are in MS's R&D division, then you have made it. Google's off-campus is no secret. You got to be really smart lateral thinker (literally, not just for the heck of it) to get into. On the contrary, Google does not even have any requirement for minimum academic CGPA, when they are land up in IIT's for hiring. It is in face-to-face rounds where the tricky ones are fired. Facebook is somewhat different because it insists on academics, as well.

Amazon in India mostly hires for entry-level/junior-level coding jobs & some sales roles with 40% variable component in CTC :) Cracking these are far from difficult. For a Sr. Architect (TOGAF) role, after all rounds of interviews are over, one needs to complete multiple scenario-based assignments over the weekend; & that is where majority of candidates give up.

If need be, ever, ask me & I would PM you the relevant contact for Amazon. No need of cracking any online interview. Straight-away face-2-face rounds.
I've sat in these interviews, both on-campus and off-campus. So I know what I'm talking about : )
 

esolve

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And Apple is made in China too but it's not chinese brand. Until I see local shop walmart stock India/chinese brand I keep my opinion that both don't have quality brand in us
Lenovo, Haier, TP-link routers (check your wifi router and see the brands, in europe I see it everywhere), Huawei, ZTE, Xiaomi, DJI drone camera
BYD electric bus
 

esolve

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may be I put wrong point ok
.
but actually its not india who says to surpass america and make great comments on economy like china do which later found out to be hollow
.

.

that's the point , china calls itself economic hub of asia though they have not even single brand
.
and chinese are way backward in innovation than japanese or korean firms even indian firms have better research for eg tata,bajaj etc.
where is Korean innovation?

Korea had been stuck with the label of design copycat as most of the electronics and consumer goods were copied or imitated products from the U.S. and Japan.

"It was 100 percent copied in the beginning," said Shim, who worked in LG for 29 years as a designer.
 
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esolve

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.
by research I mean innovation
.
most of chinese equipment are copies of western systems
.
on other hand indians have innovated missiles, rudra,arjun,tejas etc. Without copy ,actually we chose to buy equipment which are needed instead of copying them
nobody knows what is rudra,arjun,tejas

but for missiles, many countries can make missiles, is it innovation?
 

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