Who is best in mountain warfare? India or China?

[Ray]

I am not sure where you got the 12:1 ratio. Historically, invading armies need to have 3:1 number superiority. However, in modern warfare a 1:1 ratio will also work if you can provide better support to your infantry/ armor - in terms of recon/ surveillence, radar/ satellites, artillery, missiles, air defense and air-attack. The numbers game only count when the two sides are equal in all other respects. That's when occupancy of superior terrain, fortifications, supply etc become very important.
In TOR, there will be no such "support-force equality" - either the IAF will dominate the skies and IA can use a division to counter the PLA or there will be aerial parity/ PLAAF superiority and IA will not go in.
In Arunachal, similarly, either PLAAF will dominate the skies and PLA can invade, or else there will be aerial parity/ IAF superiority and PLA will not come in.



Just because it took IA to mobilize 3 weeks does not mean the PLA will take similar time - they have much better rail and roadways all the way to the border of India - unless IAF manages to take them out and keep them damaged, PLA can mobilize much faster. Also remember, they do have a much larger aerial transport fleet (primarily developed for invasion of Taiwan), that can be deployed INSIDE their own country.

Overall, PLA and PLAAF maybe able to run through Arunachal if IA/ IAF is not well prepared, but for IA/IAF to take over TAR, it would require a series of blunders from PRC and a series of brilliant moves from India.

1:3 is in the plains.

!:11 or 1:12 is the thumb rule for the High Altitude!

!:1 is a new one. It is not what is used in the UK or in the US is what I know.

The issue of mobilisation was well brought out in the article by sandeep.

 

[sandeepdg]

I never knew the Chinese have 98 ballistic missiles in the 8 missile bases they have in Tibet, including 8 ICBMs, probably the DF-31A or the DF-41. That's a shit load of ballistic missiles !

 

[Param]

I never knew the Chinese have 98 ballistic missiles in the 8 missile bases they have in Tibet, including 8 ICBMs, probably the DF-31A or the DF-41. That's a shit load of ballistic missiles !

Any link?

I guess we don't have half the number of IRBMs.

 

[sandeepdg]

Any link?

I guess we don't have half the number of IRBMs.

Read my post #243 on page 25. I think even our total missile arsenal comprising the Prithvis and Agnis is less than 98.

 

[Param]

Read my post #243 on page 25. I think even our total missile arsenal comprising the Prithvis and Agnis is less than 98.

I read somewhere that we have around 100 Agni 1 and 24 Agni 2. I don't have a link. The author was a Russian.

 

[ace009]

1:3 is in the plains.

!:11 or 1:12 is the thumb rule for the High Altitude!

!:1 is a new one. It is not what is used in the UK or in the US is what I know.

The issue of mobilisation was well brought out in the article by sandeep.

Here's a link for Soviet-Afghan campaign analysis ...

http://www.adl.gatech.edu/research/brmsrr/2008/BRMP07010802.pdf

 

[DMF]

I told Indian friends here many times that a war between China and India will not be fought for the foreseeable future, also the friends here are talking about a war of the mechanical era, this era already gone, now it's information era, a war is fought for the control of information.
According to my knowledge about the PLA, internet and electronic warfare should start first, because every time they have an exercise, they mention the "electronic magnetic environment", all the time this is the priority. Now the war very much depends on air force, is you lost the electronic warfare, you lost the air force, and you lost the war, this is simple. The PLA pays lot of attentions to information warfare, have developed early warning airplanes, electronic warfare airplanes, laser stations, China's own GPS system, if at disadvantage in electronic war, then jam all the wave bands, and destroy all the satellites. Also if border war started by India, maybe China will choose some other places to fight back now where India likes to fight. At this time, China sure India will not attack, China will not attack, China has no intention to take any land from India, the colonial era pass away, now what matters is the technology and industrial ability with a capable government, these can help you to achieve what you want to be.
China fix the eye on the USA you know, in 20years, China will maintain the world in peace. No war with India

 

[ace009]

I told Indian friends here many times that a war between China and India will not be fought for the foreseeable future, also the friends here are talking about a war of the mechanical era, this era already gone, now it's information era, a war is fought for the control of information.
According to my knowledge about the PLA, internet and electronic warfare should start first, because every time they have an exercise, they mention the "electronic magnetic environment", all the time this is the priority. Now the war very much depends on air force, is you lost the electronic warfare, you lost the air force, and you lost the war, this is simple. The PLA pays lot of attentions to information warfare, have developed early warning airplanes, electronic warfare airplanes, laser stations, China's own GPS system, if at disadvantage in electronic war, then jam all the wave bands, and destroy all the satellites. Also if border war started by India, maybe China will choose some other places to fight back now where India likes to fight. At this time, China sure India will not attack, China will not attack, China has no intention to take any land from India, the colonial era pass away, now what matters is the technology and industrial ability with a capable government, these can help you to achieve what you want to be.
China fix the eye on the USA you know, in 20years, China will maintain the world in peace. No war with India

I understand my friend that PRC has been claiming never have a war with India - but the problem is, India and China are "frenemies" - somewhat similar to what USA and the Soviets were - never really fought each other, but in the pursuit of ideological and political leverage they had mild skirmishes and proxy wars fought all over the world. On the other hand, whenever some other power threatened their hegemony they banded up to vote/ veto them out - like Germany and Japan before WW2 and later on PRC itself. That's why the term "Frenemy" was coined.
A comparison between India and China cannot be stretched that far for sure - at least not for now. But with huge populations and limited resources, competition has already started between India and China. The resources in question are oil, water, metals and natural gas (in that order for the time being, but will surely change later). So, PRC or India will not want to go to war over these yet, but low level conflicts and proxy-wars (through Pakistan by PRC and through Vietnam by India) are in the wind.
Also, since CCP has a huge roadbump of political/ social freedom in it's future and GoI has a huge roadbump of social/ criminal justice in it's future, a possible outbreak of war with it's neighbor as a way to turn attention is in the cards too.

Rant over ...

 

[atf22]

Stop fantasy about 1962 or WWII type conflict; from China preparation of invading taiwan across 200km strait in last 15 years, you will know how future regional conflict will be conduct, this apply to theater within 1000km of China-Vietnam, India, Korea, ASEAN, central Asia.

1. phase I, manuveur of space based C4IR asset, signal-ELINT in place few weeeks before D day;
2. phase II, transport of 2nd artilery SRBM -LACM brigade to 500-1000m pre-built launch sites, which could amount to a few thousands M11, M9 missles, CJ/DH land attack cruise missles, while SSN -H6 based cruise force will be moved into range; all these will be covered its with integrated air defense built around S-300, HQ-9, HQ-16;

3. When tension start to rise, deploy J-11, SU-30, J-10 , FBC, J-20 , tankers/ AWACS/ELINT asset to airport a few hundred km away;

Attack will be initiated by barrage of hundred of SRBM, Cruise missle on integrated air defense, airfield, C4IR; this will be followed by hundred sorties of air attacks to seek air superiority;

War will be decided in 1-2 weeks high intensity missle/air battle, there will be no need for major land forces battle- maybe only mobilizing some RAF for low intensity counter insurgency in post war phase.

With China 7 tr USD economy, USD150b defense budget, this will be the war it build its force for and how it will fight

 

[cir]

New Delhi is a mere 300km away from the Sino-India border， which renders it within the range of Chinese rocket artillery。

If there is ever going to be a war between China and India， New Delhi will be the primary target。Striking at the enemy's heart， and so on。。。bla bla。。。

 

[Ray]

Quote Originally Posted by Ray View Post
1:3 is in the plains.

!:11 or 1:12 is the thumb rule for the High Altitude!

!:1 is a new one. It is not what is used in the UK or in the US is what I know.

The issue of mobilisation was well brought out in the article by sandeep.

Here's a link for Soviet-Afghan campaign analysis ...

http://www.adl.gatech.edu/research/brmsrr/2008/BRMP07010802.pdf

You had stated I am not sure where you got the 12:1 ratio. Historically, invading armies need to have 3:1 number superiority. However, in modern warfare a 1:1 ratio will also work if you can provide better support to your infantry/ armor - in terms of recon/ surveillence, radar/ satellites, artillery, missiles, air defense and air-attack

I replied with my post as above.

You gave the link thereafter.

Where does it mention your 1:1 ratio?

Or disproves what is the ratio we go by?

And who has more experience fighting in High Altitude? The Indian Army or the Soviet Army?

Befelstaktic is a German term meaning 'control by detailed order'.

Auftragstaktik is another German term meaning 'directive control'.

 

[LTE-TDD]

Stop fantasy about 1962 or WWII type conflict; from China preparation of invading taiwan across 200km strait in last 15 years, you will know how future regional conflict will be conduct, this apply to theater within 1000km of China-Vietnam, India, Korea, ASEAN, central Asia.

1. phase I, manuveur of space based C4IR asset, signal-ELINT in place few weeeks before D day;
2. phase II, transport of 2nd artilery SRBM -LACM brigade to 500-1000m pre-built launch sites, which could amount to a few thousands M11, M9 missles, CJ/DH land attack cruise missles, while SSN -H6 based cruise force will be moved into range; all these will be covered its with integrated air defense built around S-300, HQ-9, HQ-16;

3. When tension start to rise, deploy J-11, SU-30, J-10 , FBC, J-20 , tankers/ AWACS/ELINT asset to airport a few hundred km away;

Attack will be initiated by barrage of hundred of SRBM, Cruise missle on integrated air defense, airfield, C4IR; this will be followed by hundred sorties of air attacks to seek air superiority;

War will be decided in 1-2 weeks high intensity missle/air battle, there will be no need for major land forces battle- maybe only mobilizing some RAF for low intensity counter insurgency in post war phase.

With China 7 tr USD economy, USD150b defense budget, this will be the war it build its force for and how it will fight

Haha, India member still dream WWII type of war, just let them compose their dreamwar. That's also reflect the difference of PLA with India army, they are in two different world thinking. India still try to deply 10000 man troop to the borad, very intesting idea. I realy hard to figure out what their high rank officer think about, maybe they still look for Mao's old idea of 'people's war'.

 

[communismforindia]

Haha, India member still dream WWII type of war, just let them compose their dreamwar. That's also reflect the difference of PLA with India army, they are in two different world thinking. India still try to deply 10000 man troop to the borad, very intesting idea. I realy hard to figure out what their high rank officer think about, maybe they still look for Mao's old idea of 'people's war'.

Idiotic comment made by an idiot, you have no idea what you are talking about, your PLA still lacks enough resources to start this "high tech" war... and what will u fight us with?? copied and stolen weapons?? its funny that world renowned copycats like u talk of original ideas.... ofcourse your media might have brainwashed your minds... what can we expect from a media that shows what govt wants to show instead of the reality...

 

[W.G.Ewald]

120406-01 Climb and conquer: Special Forces Soldiers master the science of gaining the high ground

ESTES PARK, Colo. (USASOC News Service, April 6, 2012) - If you've never experienced negative-40-degree temperatures and 60-mph winds, then no words in this article will make you cringe enough to understand how it feels to wake up in the middle of February on a peak in Colorado's Rocky Mountain National Park.

First Sgt. Mike Duncanson just wants you to know that its mornings like that when it's real tough to climb out of your snow cave and start your day.

In Estes Park-- about a half-mile higher than Denver, the mile-high city -- Duncanson and the Special Forces Advanced Mountain Operations School teach special-operations Soldiers to operate in cold weather, high altitudes and mountainous terrain.

To say it another way: this is where some of America's most elite Soldiers learn to move and survive when the air is thin, the wind is strong, the snow is deep, and the stakes are high.

To say it yet another way: this is where Soldiers come to attend the Special Forces Master Mountaineering Course.

Obviously, Siachen is higher than Colorado...

 

[mikhail]

New Delhi is a mere 300km away from the Sino-India border， which renders it within the range of Chinese rocket artillery。

If there is ever going to be a war between China and India， New Delhi will be the primary target。Striking at the enemy's heart， and so on。。。bla bla。。。

and you think that India will simply watch their capital being obliterated by the chinis and do nothing:shocked:!the moment PLA launch a missile targetting Delhi we'll launch one in response targetting beijing.so before talking about nuking us just think of the consequences that your country will suffer!

 

[Armand2REP]

New Delhi is a mere 300km away from the Sino-India border， which renders it within the range of Chinese rocket artillery。

If there is ever going to be a war between China and India， New Delhi will be the primary target。Striking at the enemy's heart， and so on。。。bla bla。。。

That is another wet dream right there. If you rocket artillery civilian population centres then that makes you no different than N. Korea and you will be treated as such. NATO will swoop in and kick some Chini ass. Remember what century you live in... bla bla...

 

[sayareakd]

^^^ add to that our doctrine can be modified in few hours and we shall act accordingly.

 

[Blackwater]

gorkhas are best in mountain warfare,Now we have to count on each side their population to get the answer

 

[ice berg]

That is another wet dream right there. If you rocket artillery civilian population centres then that makes you no different than N. Korea and you will be treated as such. NATO will swoop in and kick some Chini ass. Remember what century you live in... bla bla...

Oh wait....

 

[Bhadra]

gorkhas are best in mountain warfare,Now we have to count on each side their population to get the answer

Ladakh Scouts, Dogra Scouts, Kumaon Scouts and Garhwal Scouts though in small numbers are loacal troops meant for localised tasks and are very good in mountain warfare.

Gorkhas and Tibatans excell and do well in mountains.

ITBP, part of the CPO is also good as they police China border.