The new age "fauji" wife

[Ray]

LICO is Low Intensity Conflict Operation.

Dinner Nights

Mess dinners provide an opportunity for mess members to meet on a formal but friendly occasion, allowing the CO to address the members as a group. By custom and tradition mess dinners are considered to be a parade and as such, attendance is compulsory except for members excused by the CO.

Normally, that would be for a Regimental Dinner Night. However, for a Normal Dinner Night that is all days except Wednesday, Saturday and Sunday, when it is Supper Night, which meant that one could come and have dinner when he wanted within the stipulated hours.

The dress will be mess dress.

The time of the Dinner will always be known (e.g. "1900 for 1930 hrs" or "1930 for 2000 hrs"). You are required to be there by that time. There is no such thing as being sociably late. The expression 1900 hrs for 1930 hrs is not designed to give you flexibility. You are required to be there at 1900 hrs. This pre-dinner gathering is to enable members to meet.

The mess Havildar will inform the PMC/ senior officer when dinner is ready. If the CO of he is present and is ready, the PMC shall inform the CO and, having received permission, pass word to the bugler or piper (if in attendance) to play "Mess Call." Mess calls will normally be given 15 minutes and five minutes before entering the dining room. This allows members time to finish drinks and/or visit the facilities before dinner. The CO and PMC (or other officers designated to do so) will lead the assembly into the dining room.

Note, I forgot to mention that there is also the "Dress Call", which is given 30 minutes before the Dinner Night, so that all officers start getting dressed.

All members should look over the seating plan, usually posted near the dining room, and make sure they know where they are seated well before the move to the dining room is made.

During Regimental Guest Night or Regimental Ladies Night, one should pay particular attention to the person who is seated to your right. As a general rule you should entertain the guest on your right prior to going into dinner and see that he finds his seat. Similarly you should entertain this person during the dinner. At a "Dining In," where the officers and their ladies are present, each officer should escort the lady to his right to her chair and assist her in taking her seat.

In Regimental Dinner Nights or Ladies Night, before each place setting at the Mess table will be a small card displaying the officer's name. This is provided as an aide to finding one's seat. Some place cards are very simple, of white card stock with typewritten names. others may be more ornate with the Regiment's cap badge emblazoned on them, or for special dinners the badges of the individual officers (a trick which requires a little more work on the part of the officer tasked to organize the dinner).

Regiments will decorate the mess table with memorabilia or trophies.

Because the dinner is a formal function, special rules will be observed. These include that no diner may:

a. smoke during the meal, even if held in a facility which allows smoking;

b. commence a meal before the PMC or senior Officer on Normal Dinner Nights, who will likely pause until the head table has been served;

c. discuss political or other controversial subjects;

d. act in a boisterous manner;

e. propose a toast;

f. talk after the PMC summons attention until he has finished speaking; and

g. leave the table during the meal unless permitted to do so by the PMC.

At the conclusion of the meal, all china, silverware, placemats, flowers, and glasses, with the exception of the port glass, will be removed from the table. If you failed to finish something because the discourse over dinner was so engaging, surrender it to the wait staff with grace.

When the table is cleared, the port decanters are placed on the table in front of the PMC. If a large number of diners are in attendance, decanters will also be placed in front of the VPMC (also known as Mr Vice) and at the end of each wing table on the left-hand side. When they are in place, the PMC and VPMC unstopper the decanters, charge their glasses, and then pass the decanters to the left. Other members having had decanters placed in front of them, will also fill their glasses and pass the decanters to their left. Whether the decanter touches the table or not is a matter of mess custom, there is no standing Army custom one way or another. Some Regiments have affected local custom in this regard, in some cases, such as banging the decanter on the table before passing it, these customs are best practiced only in their own messes where the responsibility for the tables and decanters lies with that regiment's officers. No one should touch their port until the Loyal Toast (i.e., the toast to The President) has been proposed. If someone does not drink alcohol due to medical or other reasons, they may drink the Loyal Toast with water.

Following the toast(s), coffee will be served, and in the increasingly rare instance that the dining location permits smoking, the PMC gives permission to smoke by lighting a cigarette or by passing a cigarette to a neighbour. Waiters will place ashtrays on the table, followed by the serving of liqueurs.

If a band is in attendance, regimental marches may be played as directed by the PMC.

Officers will stand for their own regimental march.

During coffee, the CO will ask the mess Havilday to bring the Band Major and/or piper to him.The mess Havildar will bring a chair (or chairs as needed) to be placed behind and between them for the band director and piper. The CO will invite the band Major or piper to have a drink. The Mess Havildar personally brings the drinks on a tray. After his drink, the band Major or piper asks permission to retire, and the extra chair(s) is removed. The CO may ask the mess Havildar to bring forward the chief cook; the same procedure applies as for the band Major or piper. As the cook is concluding his visit with the CO, the Mess Havildar will normally bring the remainder of the kitchen or catering staff into the dining room, the assembly will express their gratitude for the kitchen and serving staff's efforts with a round of applause.

Should there be any speeches, they follow at this point. In some messes, speeches or presentations may be done before the dinner, specifically to keep them brief as well as to avoid prolonging time spent at the table following the meal. The PMC will get everyone's attention by rapping the gavel three times and will call upon the CO to speak if he desires to do so. Indication that a dinner is officially over will normally be given by the PMC standing up until noticed by all members. If the CO and the guests of honour leave immediately, it is customary for the members to stand until they have left the room. The PMC accompanies the guests to the lounge.

Members should not leave the mess until after the CO/ senior officer during Normal Dinner Night and guests in a Regimental Guest Night have departed.

Enjoyable, right?

 

[Ray]

May also see this

MESS ETIQUETTE AND CUSTOMS

1. Officer's Mess. The officer's mess is an institution, which influences all aspects of an officer's life. For single officers, who live in the mess and are known as in living or living-in members, it serves three main purpose - it provides them a cabin for residence, place for dining and wining finally it provides them space for entertaining relatives and friends. On the other hand, for married officers, the mess serves as a social space where they can gather for moments of relaxation and quiet talk with their brother officers. In addition, the command or station mess serves as the centre of social life of the station. The customs and etiquettes, which are observed, are essential for fostering pride in the service. The conduct of an officer in the mess, whether his own or that of other units, is a reflection of the standards of his unit and by extension his service. Many living in officer tend to overstep the boundaries of propriety, by equating the mess to the home of their married counterparts and thereby conveniently conduct themselves in a manner oblivious to the presence and sensibility of others. The common spaces of the mess are likely the drawing room of a home. You are on display there and are expected to be at your best behaviour. It is only in the privacy of your cabin that you can give yourself a greet degree of personal freedom.

2. Objectives of the Officers Mess. In an officer's mess every one, whatever their tastes or means be, can make it their home, and so long as officers conduct themselves in accordance with established customs of the service, strict rules are rarely required. The chief objective of a mess is to secure comfort and economy to all the officers and although it is very desirable that no interposition of military authority should be required, the senior officer present is at all times responsible to ensure that decorum and good order are preserved, that every officer is correctly dressed and that no irregularities or infringement of the mess rules are permitted. Simultaneously a junior should ensure that at no time he ignores the presence of a senior or deliberately violates laid down norms and regulations.

3. Dining In The Mess - A Parade. For an officer the experience of dining in the mess should be akin to being on parade, formal and stiff yet comfortable with the knowledge of exactly what comes next and the expected and accepted reaction. As on parade, without prior intimation, officers are not to skip meals or bring in extra guests to dine with them. The Mess premises and property should be treated with due care. They are part of a venerable tradition and it does not speak well of us to obliterate the past. Being in the prescribed rig in the mess is also included in maintaining the dignity of the institution.

Mess Night

4. Mess Night is an official function regularly conducted in an Officers Mess. Two common variations of the mess Night are the Guest Night and the Ladies Night. In the former specific guests are invited either singularly or as a group, for dinner. The latter is a Mess Night in which Ladies are also present. While specific rules of conduct are laid down for a Mess Night, it automatically follows that in a Guest Night and a Ladies Night, the Guests are treated with all courtesy and decorum.

5. Normally it is mandatory for all officers who have not checked / warned out of the Mess to attend a Mess Night. On other occasions officers are nominated to attend a Mess Night. All officers nominated or invited to attend a Mess Night are to be present preferably 15 minutes before the stipulated time. Normally a cocktail precedes the dinner, and is of one hour's duration. All members are to be present in the mess before the first guest arrives and remain in the Mess until the last guest leaves.

6. Seating Plan. Normally a seating plan is drawn up and placed outside the dining hall to indicate where the officers and the guests are to sit at dinner. Officers should ascertain their seat prior to moving into the area where the cocktails are to be held. If the occupants of the adjacent seats are not known to you, ascertain their particulars. The details will help start and maintain a conversation. If in the adjacent seat a lady or a guest is to sit it is considered gentlemanly to meet her / him during the cocktails, introduce yourself, and escort her/him inside for dinner. A variation to this procedure would be when a greater number of officers are invited for the cocktails and the guest list for dinner is restricted. In this case officers attending cocktails are to remain in the mess till all the invited / nominated officers have moved in for dinner.

7. Procedure For Mess Night. On the dinner being reported, the senior officer allows a few minutes to lapse before entering the dining hall in order that glasses may be drained and other officers can get to their seats. Officers who wish to go around the corner should do so much before entering the dining hall and not wait till just prior to entering the dining hall. It is to well worth remembering that there is bound to be a rush of officers with similar requirement. Guests and ladies, if present, are escorted inside by the hosts. On entering the dining hall, all officers, and guests if present, stand formally behind their chairs till the senior officer present enters and seats himself. The PMC sits at the head of the table. Normally a young officer is nominated as the Vice President and is addressed as Mr Vice. Mr Vice would at all times be seated facing PMC. Officers commence eating only after everyone has been served. Water, wine and other drinks for toasts are passed clockwise. Only the PMC or the VPMC may pass instructions to waiters while at dinner.

8. Table Manners. Officers should commence eating only after everyone has been served, taking time from the President. They should also stop as soon as the President closes his plate. The timings are also given by the band, if in attendance, through adjustments of musical score to give a reasonable duration for each course to be consumed. Cue for starting and ending a course however is to be taken from the President. Bread when served should always be kept on the table and not on the side plate. Correct table manners and etiquette are to be immaculately followed throughout the dinner. It is forbidden to come in and sit down at the table once the dinner has commenced. It is bad manners in the extreme, during the preceding cocktails and the dinner, to smoke, read/write, use indecent language, tell smutty stories, laugh uproariously, discuss or place bets, discuss political or controversial issues, speak a foreign language, mention a woman's name wantonly, talk shop or propose any toast.

9. Drinking Toasts. Toasts are normally drunk to the health of the Sovereign Head of State, which in our case is the Honourable President. Toasts thereafter can be proposed and drunk to the health of any other Indian dignitary. Toast to the President is drunk standing. Toasts for all others are drunk seated. The procedure for drinking toast to the President of India's is as follows: -
(a) On formal occasions, a toast to the President of India is customarily drunk at the end of the meal. After the desert has being served, the Senior Steward will signal to the Bandmaster that the table is being cleared.

(b) Senior Steward report to the PMC -Request permission to clear the table, Sir. When permission is accorded the table is cleared and a wine glass is placed before each member.

(c) Senior steward report to PMC - Permission to place decanter, Sir. In large messes additional decanter may be placed before Mr Vice and other members midway down the table.

(d) PMC removes the stopper of the decanter in front of him and others with the decanter before them follow suit. The decanter is passed to the left between the officer and glass (meaning not from the outer side of the glass), without lifting the decanter off the table (they are to slide down from place to place). PMC and the other officer who had the decanter placed before them are not to help themselves before passing the decanter.

(e) Each successive officer at the table fills his glass and passes the decanter to his left till the decanter reaches the President and Vice President who fill their glasses and replace the cork in the decanter. In case two glasses have been placed, the inner glass is filled first.

(f) If there is a gap between places at the table, the steward attending slides the decanter across the next table.

(g) When the decanters have reached their destination and the PMC has filled his glass, the Senior Steward report to the PMC - Decanter has been passed, Sir.

(h) The PMC then puts the stopper on the decanter in front of him and the other officer follow suit.

(j) The President taps the table thrice with the mallet, for silence, and stand up lifting the glass to chest level. The other officers are to continue to sit and not stand up or attempt to do so as the PMC stand up.

(k) The PMC says - ' Mr Vice - The President', and lower his glass to the waist level.

(l) Upon this all those seated at the table including the ladies, rise and hold their glasses at their waist level. The band then plays the national anthem, while all officer and ladies stand to attention. When the band has finished playing, the Vice President says,' Gentlemen - The President ' or 'Ladies and Gentlemen - The President'

(m) All present raise their glasses and repeat - 'The President' and drink the toast.

(n) If the band is not in attendance and foreign dignitary is present, Mr Vice rises and responds to the toast proposed by the PMC saying, 'Gentlemen / Ladies and Gentlemen - The President'. All present rise, say 'The President', drinks the toast and sit down again.

(p) If foreign dignitaries are present, the PMC is to first propose a toast to the Head of the foreign dignitary's country, after which the glasses are recharged and a toast is drunk to the President of India. If dignitaries of more than one country are present, the toast is drunk to the head of their respective countries in the order of the dignitary's seniority. If in attendance, the band plays the appropriate National Anthem during the respective toasts.

(q) When dignitaries from Commonwealth countries are being entertained, an additional toast to the health of the British Monarch is also drunk, after the toast to the Heads of the dignitary's country but before the toast to the President of India. In thee event of the dignitary being from United Kingdom, only one toast to the British Monarch is drunk, and is followed by the toast to the President of India.

(r) Toast for any Indian service dignitary is proposed only after the toast to the president. The procedure is similar except that the toast is drunk seated. The Chief host, who may or may not be the PMC, strikes the mallet thrice, and when all are silent speaks a few words about the Chief Guest and then propose a toast to his health. For e.g. on the occasion of formally dining out R Adm Pradeep Kaushiva and Mrs Kaushiva, the Chief Host after speaking a few words, propose a toast as - 'Mr Vice, I propose a toast to the health of Adm and Mrs Kaushiva'. Mr Vice responds by raising the toast and saying - 'Ladies and Gentlemen, to the health of Adm and Mrs Kaushiva'. All present respond as - 'Adm and Mrs Kaushiva' and then drink the toast in sitting position.

(s) After the toast(s) have been drunk all present sit down and conversation is resumed.

(t) Coffee and chocolates are passed around. Though smoking in common places is frowned upon, officers may only smoke when either the senior officer commences smoking or the President gives permission to do so. Due consideration is to be shown to the ladies, if they are present, before lighting up.


Stripe Wetting
10. One of the regular functions, which an officer's mess plays host to, is the tradition of wetting the stripes of a newly promoted officer. Stripe wetting has its origins in the days when officers on promotion used to add on the new stripe to the old ones. The new stripe being shiny used to stand out. At the ceremony to celebrate the promotion, the officers would rub a few drops of beer or alcohol on to the new stripe not only as a gesture of good luck but also to dull the shine of the newly added stripe. The tradition continues to this day as a gesture of wishing the promotee good luck. Unfortunately the wrong practise of pouring a full bottle of beer down the officer's neck and on the stripe has crept in. We need to desist from this silly act, and ensure that the tradition of Stripe Wetting does not lose its intended sanctity.

General Tips on Wardroom Mess Etiquettes

11. A few tips on Wardroom mess etiquette are enumerated below for guidance: -

(a) The mess has a three dimensional role to play. It is firstly the home of all in living officers, a place for recreation and relaxation for married officers and is the centre of social life of the establishment. In living officers must therefore remember that certain rooms and passageways in the mess are in frequent use by out living officers and their families. Therefore, in living officers ought to be appropriately attired whilst they are outside their own living quarters. Similarly all outliving officers who visit the mess at any time must ensure that they are dressed suitably.

(b) Informality in the mess is to be maintained within limits of service decorum. Officers in the mess are expected to show respect towards their superiors without fawning upon them or appearing to be obsequious and servile. In other words, parade ground manners are out of place, but a well-mannered mess is where healthy respect is shown to senior officers. Officers are expected to rise when a Flag Officer, the PMC, the VPMC or any officer of corresponding rank or a lady enters the anteroom.

(c) An officer always endeavours to make visitors to his mess feel at home. They entertain the visitor until the particular officer they are visiting arrives.

(d) Pets are forbidden from entering the mess.

(e) Conversation is always conducted in pleasant tones and controversial or forbidden subjects such as religion, politics, women and habits of senior officers are never discussed. Gossip, scandal, rumour mongering and criticism of superiors are also taboo. 'Shop talk' is to be kept to a minimum.

(f) In the mess, officers are forbidden from indulging in jokes or gossip denigrating ladies.

(g) A guest is never invited to dine without first seeking the permission of the PMC.

(h) Officers who do not expect to be present for a meal should warn out in good time to avoid wastage of food.

(j) In living officers should ensure strict adherence to meal timings. Entering the dining room just as the mess is about to close is indicative of scant respect for the efforts of the mess staff and should be avoided.

(k) Any officer arriving for a meal after the mess is closed should seek permission of the senior most member present prior to taking his seat.

(l) Officers entertaining ladies, children and guests in the mess must ensure that no inconvenience is caused to the other members.

(m) Officers desirous of having a party in the mess should seek the PMC's approval and give adequate notice to the mess to avoid a sloppily arranged party.

(n) Officers should never exceed their wine limits.

(p) A lady guest is not to be taken to an in living officer's cabin.

(q) Stewards and cooks should be treated with courtesy. They are serving the Navy as much as anyone else and therefore are not to be treated as personal servants. Any complaint is to be taken up with the Mess Secretary.

(r) Mess property is to be treated with the same respect as one would show to one's personal property.

(s) Noisy behaviour, clinking of glasses and talking in dialects not common to all members is in bad taste.

(t) Getting drunk is not only un officer like but is also against the regulations for the navy.

(u) It is only correct and appropriate to appreciate the efforts of the mess staff in writing. While appreciating the efforts leave out specific references to individuals like, 'Ram Singh Std 1 is the best steward that I have seen in the Navy. His service at dinner today was fantastic' or 'Cook 1 Bhola Ram has today made the best omelette of my life, etc, etc'. Similarly, rather than berating the duty steward for something beyond his ambit of responsibility pen down complaints regarding the mess so that the lacunae can be addressed by the concerned authority. Officers should pay particular attention to their language and should avoid snide remarks. Be accurate in your remarks and avoid exaggeration.

Everyday Table Manners

12. Table manners have been drawn up so that due consideration is shown to the others who are dining at the table. They are often a recognised and unwritten convention but accepted and followed almost universally throughout the civilised world. There may be small variations depending on local conventions and cultures which one would have to learn by adopting a wait and watch attitude. Good manners complement good food. Students of gastronomics have proved that little touches here and there in table layout and service help digestion. Table manners ensure that one does nothing at a dining table, which disgusts, embarrasses or causes inconvenience to other people sitting at the table.

13. General Guidelines. A few guidelines on table etiquette are listed below for information: -

(a) One is to take his seat at the table with as little clatter as possible. Getting into the chair from either side is permitted. If ladies are present one allows them to take their seats first.

(b) Napkins belong to the laps and are never to be tucked in the waist or fixed around the neck. Napkins are never used to wipe one's soiled hands, face or lips or to polish crockery or cutlery. Napkins should be gently touched to one's lips to remove anything from the lips. At the end of a guest night or a dinner night napkins are left unfolded on the table, the purpose being to indicate that the napkin has been used. However on normal occasions these should be neatly folded and put inside the napkin rack in the allotted slot. Never wipe anything, which can leave permanent marks on the napkins unless the napkins are of disposable type.

(c) One should sit straight but not necessarily stiff at the table. Elbows are never kept resting on the table; they are also not to jab one's neighbour in the ribs. When not eating keep your hands on your lap. Do not use your hands to gesticulate or to beckon others.

(d) The outside cutlery is used first - the one farthest from the plate on either side or top is started with and is worked inward towards the plate. Do remember that a crossed spoon and fork placed at the top of the plate is meant for use in the dessert course.

(e) Food is brought to the mouth and not vice versa. Nothing is eaten off a knife. A knife is used only for cutting, spreading or as a support to fork food against.

(f) Forks are used only for forking and taking food to the mouth and not for cutting food in the plate. A fork is used in such a manner that the food is supported on its outer side and then taken to the mouth. Do not use the fork as you would use a shovel.

(g) A used piece of cutlery is never put into any food that is meant for everyone. Butter is not taken from the butter dish using ones used knife, or sugar with ones wet coffee/tea spoon. Fingers are not used to touch any food article - not even to remove salt from salt cellar.

(h) Used cutlery is never kept on the tablecloth but always on a plate. Spoons are never to be left in cups, bowls or egg cups but are to be put in the plate or saucer underneath.

(j) A gentleman never eats with his mouth open, as nothing is more disgusting. He does not talk with his mouth full and does not shift too much food into his mouth. One does not make obscene noises while eating and one is supposed to chew quietly. An officer does not take large helpings and takes only so much as will ensure that the available food is sufficient for all others on the table. One should not have to go hungry because someone else has taken too much.

(k) One does not ever reach out at the table, as it is bad manners. He only reaches for things that he can get at easily and without stretching himself. It is also not advisable to request the neighbour continuously to pass things. If need be, ask the steward.

(l) One should always be careful that liquid is not spilled into the saucer when passing a cup to someone else. Liquid is never drunk straight out of a saucer or a plate; one uses either a spoon or a cup. Tea and other beverages are not drunk from a spoon but from a cup.

(m) When soup is served in a plate the spoon is slipped away from the diner and the soup drunk from the side of the spoon. To get the last bit of soup from the plate it can be gently tilted away. Soup, served in cups with handle, is drunk straight from the cup.

(n) Pieces of bread or roll may be broken off and buttered one piece at a time as one eats them. Butter is spread with a butter knife while holding the bread on the edge of one's side plate, not in the flat of the hand to spread butter. One does not crumble bread or fidget with cutlery, crockery or glassware when not eating - one keeps his hands still.

(p) Food is not to be over seasoned with salt and pepper as this is uncomplimentary to the cook. Salt is not sprinkled on the food. A little is placed on side of one's plate.

(q) Liquids are sipped, not gulped and chewing is finished before drinking. It may be necessary to touch one's lips with the napkin before drinking so that the rim of the glass is not smeared with food.

(r) Should one discover any foreign object in one's food, he must ensure that he does not do anything to spoil the food for other people. If it is not too bad, it is taken out discreetly and put aside, preferably hidden from the view of others by a piece of bread. If it is something too bad, the food is left without making a big fuss.

(s) It is no longer considered a mark of delicacy to leave food on ones plate. It is a gross wastage and hence should always be avoided.

(t) Use of toothpicks on the table is best avoided. If one has to, then one cups ones hand in front of the mouth while using the pick.

(u) Finger bowls are used at the end of the meal by dipping only the tip of fingers lightly, one hand at a time into the water and then drying them on the napkin. Finger bowls are not to be used to clean both hands after meals nor for wiping the lips after meals.

(v) There is never any reason, particularly at someone's house, to comment on the food one does not like. On the other hand genuine appreciation of the food or some particular dish will give a lot of satisfaction to one's host/hostess.

(w) One does not talk across the table except in a general conversation.

(x) A slice of bread or toast is never eaten whole. The slice is to be neatly cut lengthwise into two and then eaten. If it is desired to apply butter and jam on the slice, it is done before cutting it into two. The bread slice is eaten off the side dish. It is not to be slid under the serving on the main plate. If it is desired to have an egg omelette sandwich, it is so ordered and not that the omelette on being served is sandwiched between two slices and then eaten.

(y) The butter knife and the jam spoon are not to be used to spread the butter and jam respectively. Their use is to be limited to helping oneself from the butter dish and the jam jar. The crockery provided at each seat is to be used for the purpose of spreading on the slice. While it is preferable to help oneself to butter and jam at the rate of one slice at a time, it is acceptable to take the desired quantity of both and put it on the edge of the side plate.

(z) The knife is to be used only for cutting the food. It is therefore never to be taken near the mouth. The knife is also not to be licked clean after the main dish is eaten and starting on the butter and jam.
14. Indian Food. At the outset it may seem absurd to use the western origin crockery to eat Indian food. However if the underlying principle of etiquette and table manners is understood then it will be apparent that the type of food will not matter. Whatever the dish or type of cuisine served, a messy plate, slurping sounds and licking ones fingers are extremely appalling to look at. Nowadays most Officers' Messes serve typically Indian food like Idlis, Dosa, Poori & Sabji and Aloo Parathas on a regular basis. Local culinary preparations like Appam and Stew, Curd Rice and Tandoori Chicken are also regular features in a weekly menu. While eating such dishes with a fork and spoon or a knife is an experience, which most gastronomes would not like to repeat, it should be borne in mind that table manners are not meant to punish the diner but to make the dining a pleasurable experience for both the diner and his neighbours. For example, traditional western dining demands that the bread on the side plate is eaten with the left hand only, a practise that would not be acceptable to us Indians. Indian breads like roti and naan are normally broken off with the right hand and eaten also with the right. So while one would like to eat the Indian dish the way it is traditionally eaten, the norms of dining in a wardroom would forbade it as the enjoyment of one would then become tortuous for the other.

15. Dining in an officer's mess is a formal function; rules laid down for which are not to be tampered with on the basis of specific items on the menu. The cutlery provided on the table should be used, irrespective of whether one is eating a paratha or a dosa or an omelette. Since the underlying need is to maintain the dignity and decorum of the mess it is preferable that traditional Indian dishes, which would tempt one to avoid using cutlery, are not included in the menu especially during Mess Nights.

CHAPTER - 4- MESS ETIQUETTE AND

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Note: There will be variations in the procedure between the Regiments, Corps, the Indian Navy and the Indian Air Force.

 

[Compersion]

Joining armed forces does give and provide something that the private sector cannot ever do and that is the character and discipline and courage developed by defending and protecting the citizens of our country. It's like attending Harvard on merit. A high rank armed forces individual and the skill set they posses and have developed would out do anyone from any senior position in a private and public company,

I would like to see and I would say we need to have the people from (especially high ranked) armed forces and foreign service personnel involved in the political landscape. Especially after they retire and leave the armed forces I would like more to be seen in politics a bit like jaswant singh. Vk singh was in the right direction but the guy seems to have too much hand baggage. I suppose it will happen eventually more later and in the meantime the think tanks need them more.

 

[Ray]

I may not be the right person to comment on the comparison between the military and the corporate life, but having been in the military and having my children and relatives in the corporate world, superficially, I think the military life is less stressful and you get more time to yourself than in the corporate world. This is applicable to the Indian scenario.

Military life is regulated and so relatively predictable especially the routine, unless you are in the frontlines or LICO. Being somewhat predictable and routine, the stress level is less. There are goals to be achieved, but most of the time spaced out, unlike the corporate world where you job depends on the targets to be achieved and you don't have the advantage of the military where your subordinates will obey you whether they like it or not. In short, the conflicts zone are very limited and that is a great help in achieving goals.

Further, you have time to play games (in fact, it is a parade). Games do take off the stress and allows you to mingle with your command on an informal platform. In a corporate life, you have to go to the gym in the morning and then rush off to work. It is an individual oriented task, while in the military you go for PT and it is a group activity. I found the group activity was great to not feel the 'social isolation' in your endeavour.

You did have military social duties in the evening some times, but it was mostly a joint exercise, wherein you attended the activity with your wife. I found that in corporate dos, the wives rarely were invited and mostly they were merely drinking binges!

Then the hours in the corporate world is longer. They go to office early and return late and return even real late if in the financial sector.

I found that they hardly have time for their children.

In the Army, the absence from the family, when posted in field area may be long, but then if you come home in the corporate world, when your children are sleeping and only see them for a short while in the morning before they leave for school, it is a better family equation in the Army even if the absence is longer in a stretch.

Therefore, I feel a military life is better.

I maybe wrong, but that is what I felt and I sure would like to know where I have drawn incorrect conclusions so that I can learn.

 

[pkroyal]

I visit my units (the one commissioned and one I commanded) quite often..

i interact with officers and men, there, also wherever I meet them.

If you are under the impression that it is like the old days of camaraderie, then forget it.



Today, they are more concerned about self enhancement at the expense of the unit and the command of their troops. Though, in the same breath, I will say it is the system that drives them to that state.

In my time, we wanted to stay in the unit and not be posted out. Today, none wants to stay in the unit and instead go and seek appointments in Staff for 'career punching'.

Let me give you an example.

My CO was very strict about company affiliations and not so keen on ensuring the right rank command the sub units. So, if the company commander was not there because they are out on some assignment, the Senior JCO took over, even if in other Companies, there were officers who could be shifted to take command.

In war, I was a Major, but he kept me as a Platoon Commander when the neighbouring company was being commanded by a Captain.

Did I crib?

No.

I would rather be with my boys than take over another set, even though I had been commissioned in that company, but had a very limited tenure.

And now when I go back to my unit, the men throng around me, narrating stories of me, some true and some fictions and treat me as some legend! They even have preserved a colour TV, (which was actually bought by my mother since those days I could not afford the cost) as a keepsake of my times!

Such is the camaraderie that one had and one developed and nurtured.

Is it the same today?

If it were then we would have not had so many mutinies that we have recently experienced.

One must smell the coffee and not live in delusions.

Who says careers are ruined by AWWA?

The Army is called upon to do the most stupid of jobs. It is how you are trained to look at the task given to you that matters.

Even standing post, on a cold night, can be disgusting and dreary.

Does it mean that we should not do it?

Do you think that being the Duty Officer of the Week is like visiting Disneyland?

I used to hate it going around at odd hours of the night to check, and yet waking up early morning to go for PT!

LICO is the greatest negativity that has ruined unit cohesiveness. The unit is never together! If people are living in independent posts on the LC or operating in subunits in LICO, then where is time and environment to build the cohesiveness? Each one then thinks himself to be a Tees Mar Khan and is self oriented and given the harsh and dangerous environment, is most relieved when posted out to a 'cushy' staff appointment. And some even pull strings to get out and do some career enhancement ticket punching!

I am sure your friends in uniform never saw a Dinner Night.

We used to hate it.

But it taught us one thing - the unit the works, eats and sleeps together (metaphorically) functions better!

Even today, those of us who were 2/Lt and Lt of those times in the unit, have a greater bond than with those who were our seniors.

Ask the NDA boys how they feel about their coursemates of the same Squadron, even if they have gone to different Services. Being coursemates of the same Sqn eases out the issues, like it or not.

I like this " katha" about camaraderie as it has been directed to me , i would like to elaborate,

joined Rashtriya Military School ( Age -10)
NDA- (Age - 17)
Paltan , the SikhLI,(Age- 20 1/2)
VRS ( Age- 49),in 2010. I am absolutely clear about team building as I have more than 15 years of service in the same paltan, no staff, save for an ERE of about an year. I understand what you mean by respect and affection of the troops , one is already a legend in the paltan based on some truthful & some mythical stories. that is not the issue. AWWA today is an anachronism like a dinosaur strutting about in the wrong genealogical age. I love the fauj equally if not more, my thesis on Stress Management in the army ( suicide & fratricide cases) is already under implementation at AG level. So it is 12 years of military training & 28 years of Infantry service with 03 High Altitudes,& 08 field tenures incl 04 in Insurgency. Dinner nights maybe 168 till I moved on !!.

 

[From Realm of D&T]

I may not be the right person to comment on the comparison between the military and the corporate life, but having been in the military and having my children and relatives in the corporate world, superficially, I think the military life is less stressful and you get more time to yourself than in the corporate world. This is applicable to the Indian scenario.

Military life is regulated and so relatively predictable especially the routine, unless you are in the frontlines or LICO. Being somewhat predictable and routine, the stress level is less. There are goals to be achieved, but most of the time spaced out, unlike the corporate world where you job depends on the targets to be achieved and you don't have the advantage of the military where your subordinates will obey you whether they like it or not. In short, the conflicts zone are very limited and that is a great help in achieving goals.

Further, you have time to play games (in fact, it is a parade). Games do take off the stress and allows you to mingle with your command on an informal platform. In a corporate life, you have to go to the gym in the morning and then rush off to work. It is an individual oriented task, while in the military you go for PT and it is a group activity. I found the group activity was great to not feel the 'social isolation' in your endeavour.

You did have military social duties in the evening some times, but it was mostly a joint exercise, wherein you attended the activity with your wife. I found that in corporate dos, the wives rarely were invited and mostly they were merely drinking binges!

Then the hours in the corporate world is longer. They go to office early and return late and return even real late if in the financial sector.

I found that they hardly have time for their children.

In the Army, the absence from the family, when posted in field area may be long, but then if you come home in the corporate world, when your children are sleeping and only see them for a short while in the morning before they leave for school, it is a better family equation in the Army even if the absence is longer in a stretch.

Therefore, I feel a military life is better.

I maybe wrong, but that is what I felt and I sure would like to know where I have drawn incorrect conclusions so that I can learn.

Good explanation

 

[From Realm of D&T]

Moral of the story is for IA officers to not marry very ambitious career oriented women.

Most army walas probably end up in arranged marriages and usually the parents get them sundar shushil kanya "fit to be" a fauji ki biwi

Sums up well

 

[Ray]

I like this " katha" about camaraderie as it has been directed to me , i would like to elaborate,

joined Rashtriya Military School ( Age -10)
NDA- (Age - 17)
Paltan , the SikhLI,(Age- 20 1/2)
VRS ( Age- 49),in 2010. I am absolutely clear about team building as I have more than 15 years of service in the same paltan, no staff, save for an ERE of about an year. I understand what you mean by respect and affection of the troops , one is already a legend in the paltan based on some truthful & some mythical stories. that is not the issue. AWWA today is an anachronism like a dinosaur strutting about in the wrong genealogical age. I love the fauj equally if not more, my thesis on Stress Management in the army ( suicide & fratricide cases) is already under implementation at AG level. So it is 12 years of military training & 28 years of Infantry service with 03 High Altitudes,& 08 field tenures incl 04 in Insurgency. Dinner nights maybe 168 till I moved on !!.

That is all fine.

Good to know you are from the KG School (that is what it was called in my time).

I was a battalion commander in the NDA during 1991 and I can say the whole attitude towards soldiering and life had changed from my time (1963). Heard of the Mangat case? Or beating up juniors with hockey sticks? Or of the illegal sadistic punishments after lights out in the Bathrooms?

In my time, the punishments were worse, but not sadistic and no one touched anyone's body with or with hockey sticks. We were trained to be Gentlemen and the Honour Code was not a scrap of paper as it is now!

We had course punishment, but the punishment was usually for individuals who had committed errors. It is a bogus theory that modern cadets purported that mass punishment built up course spirit. In actuality, it built up 'unionism' (as the labour organisation do) and that leads to mutinies and gross insubordination as we are witnessing these days.

I would not like to go into details of my career, it will serve no purpose, but let us drop an example - when the Military Secretary stated during an address in the College of Combat where I was an instructor, that officers of the IA spend only 1/3 of their career in the field area, I requested him to check up my dossier and tell us why the same was not applicable in my case where High Altitude tenures and operational areas were more the routine than the exception.

Though I will confess that I liked active service more than peace tenures, not because of AWWA, but for the reason that peace tenure too routine and did not have the excitement. And I had got seasoned to the field area life, being posted too many times in such areas,including one special request to the MS Branch for such a posting.

As far as being in insurgency areas, it has become a routine for all.

Saw one war (including a raid 9 miles inside POK), one Operation (undeclared) in Dalunang (Kargil Sector) that remained active till the last Op in Kargil, as also the last Op in Kargil - Op Vijay.

I could also inform you that after the Kargil War, my Paper and direct supervision is what ensured that the posts with reinforced bunkers were created in record time and the Army Commander was appreciative of that effort, and as the Presiding Officer of a Board with two other members, our recommendations on the reorganisation of the new Corps to include a new look at logistics was the blueprint of what is being implemented.

It is not that I want to claim any credit. I am sure anyone else would have done the same thing in my place, but I was blessed with the opportunity of being on the spot, at the correct time, to be assigned the task, which, fortunately for me was appreciated.

I have had a very satisfying tenure in the Army and I take it that my outlook to life never made any activity that I had to engage in, including organising AWWA, a drudgery.

One must understand, discipline means the cheerful subordination of the individual will, for the good of the team!/B]

That is what kept me going and I am glad that this was inculcated in me by my father, who was also in the army, my training in School, NDA, IMA and the unit.

I also believed in the Serenity Prayer that goes:

God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
The courage to change the things I can,
And wisdom to know the difference.

And another saying that inspired me was:

Do not go where the path may lead,
go instead where there is no path
and leave a trail behind

 

[pkroyal]

That is all fine.

Good to know you are from the KG School (that is what it was called in my time).

I was a battalion commander in the NDA during 1991 and I can say the whole attitude towards soldiering and life had changed from my time (1963).

I would not like to go into details of my career, it will serve no purpose, but let us drop an example - when the Military Secretary stated during an address in the College of Combat where I was an instructor, that officers of the IA spend only 1/3 of their career in the field area, I requested him to check up my dossier and tell us why the same was not applicable in my case where High Altitude tenures and operational areas were more the routine than the exception.

Though I will confess that I liked active service more than peace tenures, not because of AWWA, but for the reason that peace tenure too routine and did not have the excitement. And I had got seasoned to the field area life, being posted too many times in such areas,including one special request to the MS Branch for such a posting.

As far as being in insurgency areas, it has become a routine for all.

Saw one war (including a raid 9 miles inside POK), one Operation (undeclared) in Dalunang (Kargil Sector) that remained active till the last Op in Kargil, as also the last Op in Kargil - Op Vijay.

I could also inform you that after the Kargil War, my Paper and direct supervision is what ensured that the posts with reinforced bunkers were created in record time and the Army Commander was appreciative of that effort, and as the Presiding Officer of a Board with two other members, our recommendations on the reorganisation of the new Corps to include a new look at logistics was the blueprint of what is being implemented.

It is not that I want to claim any credit. I am sure anyone else would have done the same thing in my place, but I was blessed with the opportunity of being on the spot, at the correct time, to be assigned the task, which, fortunately for me was appreciated.

I have had a very satisfying tenure in the Army and I take it that my outlook to life never made any activity that I had to engage in, including organising AWWA, a drudgery.

One must understand, discipline means the cheerful subordination of the individual will, for the good of the team!/B]

That is what kept me going and I am glad that this was inculcated in me by my father, who was also in the army, my training in School, NDA, IMA and the unit.

I also believed in the Serenity Prayer that goes:

God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
The courage to change the things I can,
And wisdom to know the difference.

And another saying that inspired me was:

Do not go where the path may lead,
go instead where there is no path
and leave a trail behind

I follow only one dictum " Duniya mein main ab chala akela,
Khud hi mein guru aur khudi ka chela "

Roughly translated it means , " I always walk the pathways of this world alone
As I am my own preceptor & follower rolled in one"

 

[Ray]

my thesis on Stress Management in the army ( suicide & fratricide cases) is already under implementation at AG level.

The issue of Stress and Fratricide proves my point that the Army has changed.

In my time, when one was posted in the field say J&K, to go for or come from leave was an ordeal since the reservations on the DD quota was never somehow available and one got on and then with some luck could get a berth. Today, there is an air ferry for all ranks both from Srinagar and from Leh. In my time, if one had to go to Leh and his turn came, he would get an AN 12 or an AN 32 and all know how jarring it is to fly in these aircraft. Today, there are Indian Airline chartered flights, thanks to George Fernandez.

When one arrived at the Transit Camp in Jammu, one would have to cool their heels till their turn to get a seat in the Officers bus came after waiting for days. And this happened at Udhampur Transit Camp and also at the Srinagar transit camp. There were times, when we sat on the luggage in the luggage truck (a rickety 3 ton) since we were desperate to return to our units. Today, such is not the case.

In those days, there was One way traffic and timings for the Up Convoy and Down Convey. Even as Majors, we had to stand at the TCP requesting ASC drivers if we could get a lift and that too, we had to do good by jumping on the rear (the co driver claiming that as a Convoy Commander he regretfully had to occupy the co driver's seat) ss it wended its way through the winding narrow path, the weaving causing many of those travelling at the back to vomit and the stench was awful! Today, the officers don't move unless they get a Jeep or a proper transport.

On the post, we had pine wood or coal bukharis or some lucky ones, had oil fired bukharies. Today, there are Japanese and indigenous stoves. Our bunkers had pine wood ceilings and made of stone and mud cut within the hills. They were dark and dank. We had lanterns and petromaxes. Today, you have electricity charged by generators or even direct electricity! You have solar lanterns too! And you have cemented bunkers! And you also have beds and not sleep on so called beds that were constructed with mud and stone with all the lumps to make you alive and active.

As far as water goes, we had Braithwaite tanks which were filled with the help of mules and pakhals. Today, there is piped water by tapping the springs.

The posts are all connected by roads these days. In those days, there were mule tracks and so all movement was on foot!

The transistor radio was our connection with the world. Today, you have the TV on posts!

You have Mobiles and in those days, the letter or snail mail that took 14 days to come were our sole connections with our families and most of the news, though a delight, was stale and outdated.

Terrorism was nascent, we had to learn how to fight them with our guts and wits and we bought causalities. Today, you have the world of gadgetry and better weapons and body protection. We had to do good with the SLR and the Sten. And we did not have Pre Induction training or Battle Schools! We learnt our job the hard way!

I could go on.

So, during which of the two times should there have been Stress and Fratricide?

When there was nothing and with no one to train or guide and instead learn through casualties, guts and wits, or when everything is laid on a platter with all the facilities that can be given?

If there is Stress and Fratricide today, then what is the malaise?

As I see it, this Stress, Fratricide and Mutinies are all caused by poor Man Management and bonding as a unit

Obviously such people will find AWWA a drudgery and an anachronism like a dinosaur strutting about in the wrong genealogical age. .

One has to have a strong mental chemistry to take the pat with the knock!

I cannot believe that there is such lack of bonding and professionalism that, if Pravin Swami is to be believed, when he wriites-

The fighting was sparked off, military sources say, when two observation positions on the Line of Control, code-named Khukri and Kullar, were briefly left unheld. Troops of the 3-3 Gurkha Regiment failed to replace their counterparts from the 20 Kumaon Regiment on time.

Obviously, when the commanders are all consumed in themselves and not concerned of their duties to the unit and the troops, there will be Stress and Fratricide!

Modern Indian army, for you!

" I always walk the pathways of this world alone
As I am my own preceptor & follower rolled in one"

That is the difference.

While one should be the he master of one's fate:and the captain of one's soul.and be a Leader and a pathfinder, he must also realise he is part of a group or society and must work to build up the team beyond just thinking about his self!

 

[Ray]

I am not blaming anyone.

I have seen the change over the years.

My father's time in the Army was different. They were more steeped in honour, integrity and care for the troops.

As an example, I was pleasantly surprised that the Officer after a route march did not just take the report and break off. They checked personally how many had blisters and so on and then when the troops had broken off, that they went back to their billets. In my time, we took the report and left.

I am not too sure what it is today, but I am sure it is not something one can write home about, if the story of leaving two posts unheld, even briefly, is true!

That would have meant court martial in my times and the COs immediately relieved of their command!

That has not happened as far as we know!

Times are changing.......may not be for the good!

But then we all come from the contemporary society and its ethical chemistry!

 

[Ray]

@pkroyal

I was a battalion commander in the NDA during 1991 and I can say the whole attitude towards soldiering and life had changed from my time (1963). Heard of the Mangat case? Or beating up juniors with hockey sticks? Or of the illegal sadistic punishments after lights out in the Bathrooms (Bathroom Sessions)?

In my time, the punishments were worse, but not sadistic and no one touched anyone's body with or with hockey sticks. We were trained to be Gentlemen and the Honour Code was not a scrap of paper as it is now!

We had course punishment, but the punishment was usually for individuals who had committed errors. It is a bogus theory that modern cadets purported that mass punishment built up course spirit. In actuality, it built up 'unionism' (as the labour organisation do) and that leads to mutinies and gross insubordination as we are witnessing these days.

Let me tell you, that with the consent of my Battalion appointments, I told them can they take my punishment and compare it with what they do?

When they agreed, and it was a great risk I was taking because the Commandant would have hauled me up, I gave them 15 minutes and they gave up!

There was a Sargent in one of Squadron who was a sadist.

I came down at night on my Kinetic Honda, which is a near silent scooter, jumped in through the window (their lookout had already alerted them) fell on a cadet who was in Mufti (imagine Mufti at midnight), interrogated him, realised that the Sargent was at his best. He was a chap who used to use the hockey stick as if it was his bodily extension.

I went to him, thrashed him black and blue and I was ready for whatever happened to me, and told him I will get him thrown out, even if it was the last thing I do.

That 'raid' had its salutary effect and people started falling in line!

IA is to produce Gentlemen who are fierce on the battlefield and not sadists and men with criminal intent!

 

[pkroyal]

@pkroyal

I was a battalion commander in the NDA during 1991 and I can say the whole attitude towards soldiering and life had changed from my time (1963). Heard of the Mangat case? Or beating up juniors with hockey sticks? Or of the illegal sadistic punishments after lights out in the Bathrooms (Bathroom Sessions)?

In my time, the punishments were worse, but not sadistic and no one touched anyone's body with or with hockey sticks. We were trained to be Gentlemen and the Honour Code was not a scrap of paper as it is now!

We had course punishment, but the punishment was usually for individuals who had committed errors. It is a bogus theory that modern cadets purported that mass punishment built up course spirit. In actuality, it built up 'unionism' (as the labour organisation do) and that leads to mutinies and gross insubordination as we are witnessing these days.

Let me tell you, that with the consent of my Battalion appointments, I told them can they take my punishment and compare it with what they do?

When they agreed, and it was a great risk I was taking because the Commandant would have hauled me up, I gave them 15 minutes and they gave up!

There was a Sargent in one of Squadron who was a sadist.

I came down at night on my Kinetic Honda, which is a near silent scooter, jumped in through the window (their lookout had already alerted them) fell on a cadet who was in Mufti (imagine Mufti at midnight), interrogated him, realised that the Sargent was at his best. He was a chap who used to use the hockey stick as if it was his bodily extension.

I went to him, thrashed him black and blue and I was ready for whatever happened to me, and told him I will get him thrown out, even if it was the last thing I do.

That 'raid' had its salutary effect and people started falling in line!

IA is to produce Gentlemen who are fierce on the battlefield and not sadists and men with criminal intent!

A tenure as an instructor in NDA, a tenure as instructor in college of combat ( by your own admission),staff college ??,maybe two /three staff appointments outside the unit ?? great soldiering sir !!, kindly do not over romanticize this blood & guts profession. Stress is more in RR units which have troops from all over with little group cohesion, who thought about this setup ?? some half smart alec. infantry units by their very structure & ethos do not face these problems. Your solutions are frozen in time, the world has moved on , give some original solution to the present day problem rather than harp on the past . Old templates give old solutions, the situation now requires thinking afresh as no creative solution will emerge from an old template.

 

[Ray]

If your service is about 35 years, what did you expect - 35 years in the unit?

Instructor NDA was truncated.

Throw in two wars (1971and Op Vijay) , one raid into POK and one Operation in the Kargil Sector way before Op Vijay, and as per you, they must have been a walk along Marine Drive, compared to a stint with the RR,right? Sure, they were not stressful because one had learnt how to conquer stress.We did not wilt like an Aspen leaf, nor did we think that we have done something terrific beyond the call of duty to boast about!

Please do not tell me about RR. RR was in my command. So, RR alone was your brush with combat?

Let me assure you that even as a Brigadier, I participated in CASO.

Had I been a chap who wilts under stress, I would have avoided it! After all, why take a risk in old age, when those who are young do not want to take a risk, right? One could recount many young people who felt that it was foolish to take risk!

You do not know me and so do not jump to conclusions.

If I were not known for my characteristics, I would not have been mentioned as a figure in an operational fiction by Maj Gen GD Bakshi.

And anyway,. I am known to be a person who thinks 'out of the box' and not an old fuddy duddy!

Yes, you may opine that we had our frozen solution. And yet, we got result, and not what is happening these day on the LC with modern youth around (who have moved on) who do not even have the sense of responsibility or tactical acumen to organise patrols (beheading and the 5 killed) or even such a routine operational activity as Relief of Troops in Contact!

Sure, they are moving on, right?

But what interest me is that you are yet to comment on the real stuff about stress, fratricide and mutinies (on which you are an expert and on which the AG's Branch is working on) that happens now and the causes. And why it did not happen before, when the going was real tough and everything was in a flux and the living, travelling and other conditions were pitiable compared to now. And best of all, leave (annual and casual) was real difficult to come by, since if a man went on two months leave or any leave, it would mean a 3 months plus absence from the unit given the time through the transit camp etc. Today, leave is there for the asking!

The first solution is let us cut out the hollow war cries. Let us get back to the Regimental traditions and unit bonding. Man Management and stop the mollycoddling and politically correct moves to garner cheap popularity that is soon seen through!

Let us, for a change be MEN and not nancy boys!

 

[pkroyal]

If your service is about 35 years, what did you expect - 35 years in the unit?

Instructor NDA was truncated.

Throw in two wars (1971and Op Vijay) , one raid into POK and one Operation in the Kargil Sector way before Op Vijay, and as per you, they must have been a walk along Marine Drive, compared to a stint with the RR,right? Sure, they were not stressful because one had learnt how to conquer stress.We did not wilt like an Aspen leaf, nor did we think that we have done something terrific beyond the call of duty to boast about!

Please do not tell me about RR. RR was in my command. So, RR alone was your brush with combat?

Let me assure you that even as a Brigadier, I participated in CASO.

Had I been a chap who wilts under stress, I would have avoided it! After all, why take a risk in old age, when those who are young do not want to take a risk, right? One could recount many young people who felt that it was foolish to take risk!

You do not know me and so do not jump to conclusions.

If I were not known for my characteristics, I would not have been mentioned as a figure in an operational fiction by Maj Gen GD Bakshi.

And anyway,. I am known to be a person who thinks 'out of the box' and not an old fuddy duddy!

Yes, you may opine that we had our frozen solution. And yet, we got result, and not what is happening these day on the LC with modern youth around (who have moved on) who do not even have the sense of responsibility or tactical acumen to organise patrols (beheading and the 5 killed) or even such a routine operational activity as Relief of Troops in Contact!

Sure, they are moving on, right?

But what interest me is that you are yet to comment on the real stuff about stress, fratricide and mutinies (on which you are an expert and on which the AG's Branch is working on) that happens now and the causes. And why it did not happen before, when the going was real tough and everything was in a flux and the living, travelling and other conditions were pitiable compared to now. And best of all, leave (annual and casual) was real difficult to come by, since if a man went on two months leave or any leave, it would mean a 3 months plus absence from the unit given the time through the transit camp etc. Today, leave is there for the asking!

The first solution is let us cut out the hollow war cries. Let us get back to the Regimental traditions and unit bonding. Man Management and stop the mollycoddling and politically correct moves to garner cheap popularity that is soon seen through!

Let us, for a change be MEN and not nancy boys!

Incidentally i have never done a tenure in RR, it was part of my study for my thesis. All four tenures in J&K have been with my regimental troops. As for fictional characters less said the better, there was a Maj in 1992 who carried the sobriquet " Jallad of Baramulla" real , living and a legend to boot. Less talk about Men & Nancy boys would do us a world of good.

All that you are writing about is academic, every one is aware of these simplistic derivations of military training, how in today's scenario when the troops themselves have huge aspirations , come from semi urban milleu,nuclear families with instant communication ( via mobile phones) can this problem be addressed. Enough rant about the past !! even you do not know me, & there is no need to, what is the way forward for our army, its officer cadre & troops??

That is the Issue

 

[Ray]

Incidentally i have never done a tenure in RR, it was part of my study for my thesis. All four tenures in J&K have been with my regimental troops. As for fictional characters less said the better, there was a Maj in 1992 who carried the sobriquet " Jallad of Baramulla" real , living and a legend to boot. Less talk about Men & Nancy boys would do us a world of good.

All that you are writing about is academic, every one is aware of these simplistic derivations of military training, how in today's scenario when the troops themselves have huge aspirations , come from semi urban milleu,nuclear families with instant communication ( via mobile phones) can this problem be addressed. Enough rant about the past !! even you do not know me, & there is no need to, what is the way forward for our army, its officer cadre & troops??

That is the Issue

I have given facts. I have given you the causes of stress.

And you have not been able to spell out anything factual even though you claim you have written a thesis on the subject!

The issue is not decry the Army unless you present facts, and if you present facts, you will be justified.

If you don't. then it is merely a rant of the disgruntled!

 

[pkroyal]

I have given facts. I have given you the causes of stress.

And you have not been able to spell out anything factual even though you claim you have written a thesis on the subject!

The issue is not decry the Army unless you present facts, and if you present facts, you will be justified.

If you don't. then it is merely a rant of the disgruntled!

There are multiple issues dogging the army, which are the causes of stress :-
1. From your time of commissioning (1966/67 ? ) approx five decades have passed, troops in Infantry are not of the ' angootha chap " variety.
2. With better education, there is a huge rise in aspiration among troops.
3. All of our recruits no longer come from purely rural areas, they come from semi urban nuclear families also. there is little or no support of the joint family in the village.
4. Officer is not the " Mai baap / ann data " as troops gave us that status when I joined in 1981, at least in my regiment. they thought the pay I was disbursing on pay day was from some fund which the " Sahib Bahadur's" controlled. Now it comes directly to their bank account.
5. Earlier when a " jawan's" child was sick a post card was sent to him by his wife / family which took about ten days to arrive at a far flung post. By then it would be assumed that the child has recovered. Today we are technology driven, the jawan's wife gives him a call on his mobile , probably when he is on sentry duty, cursing him as she has no one from the family to assist her in taking some one sick at home to the hospital, as she is staying in a semi urban area as a nuclear family to meet the educational needs of her children.
6. Today's world that includes you, me and everyone is a trifle more materialistic than what it was 50 years back.( Do I need to give statistics ??)
people in society ask for their rights, when not given due to various reasons, they sulk / agitate / get depressed. Our troops come from the same
society.
More on this later, as I got to take the Dog for a walk!
DO YOU BY ANY STRETCH OF IMAGINATION IMPLY WE GO BACK TO THE STONE AGE, OR COME IN BULLOCK CARTS AFTER LEAVE , WE LIVE IN A WORLD WITH 24 HOUR TELEVISION , OUR TROOPS ARE UNTRAINED ( IN MIND ), UNCOUTH & SEMI EDUCATED PEOPLE , THEY INTERPRET IMAGES THAT FLASH ACROSS THEIR TV SCREENS IN THEIR OWN WAY ,TRYING TO MAKE SOME SENSE OUT OF THIS INFORMATION OVERLOAD, CAN YOU CONTROL THE TELEVISION CHANNELS AND THE INDIRECT EFFECT OF ADS & TRIGGERING OF BUYING IMPULSE FOR GOOD LIVING AND LIFE STYLE, DOES TV ONLY ENTERTAIN / INFORM ?? OR RAISE ASPIRATION WHICH WILL MAKE A SPARTAN VULNERABLE TO
INDUCEMENT ?? QUESTION WITH NO READY MADE ANSWERS ?? OUR 11 LAKH PLUS ARMY IS GRAPPLING WITH THIS AND MUCH MORE IN TERMS OF MAN MANAGEMENT.

 

[pkroyal]

there are multiple issues dogging the army, which are the causes of stress :-
1. From your time of commissioning (1966/67 ? ) approx five decades have passed, troops in infantry are not of the ' angootha chap " variety.
2. With better education, there is a huge rise in aspiration among troops.
3. All of our recruits no longer come from purely rural areas, they come from semi urban nuclear families also. There is little or no support of the joint family in the village.
4. Officer is not the " mai baap / ann data " as troops gave us that status when i joined in 1981, at least in my regiment. They thought the pay i was disbursing on pay day was from some fund which the " sahib bahadur's" controlled. Now it comes directly to their bank account.
5. Earlier when a " jawan's" child was sick a post card was sent to him by his wife / family which took about ten days to arrive at a far flung post. By then it would be assumed that the child has recovered. Today we are technology driven, the jawan's wife gives him a call on his mobile , probably when he is on sentry duty, cursing him as she has no one from the family to assist her in taking some one sick at home to the hospital, as she is staying in a semi urban area as a nuclear family to meet the educational needs of her children.
6. Today's world that includes you, me and everyone is a trifle more materialistic than what it was 50 years back.( do i need to give statistics ??)
people in society ask for their rights, when not given due to various reasons, they sulk / agitate / get depressed. Our troops come from the same
society.
More on this later, as i got to take the dog for a walk!
do you by any stretch of imagination imply we go back to the stone age, or come in bullock carts after leave , we live in a world with 24 hour television , our troops are untrained ( in mind ), uncouth & semi educated people , they interpret images that flash across their tv screens in their own way ,trying to make some sense out of this information overload, can you control the television channels and the indirect effect of ads & triggering of buying impulse for good living and life style, does tv only entertain / inform ?? Or raise aspiration which will make a spartan vulnerable to
inducement ?? Question with no ready made answers ?? Our 11 lakh plus army is grappling with this and much more in terms of man management.

every day about 35,554 persons from the jawan's family all over india report sick at the hospitals,that makes it 1481 persons per hour, considering 1/3 of our troops are combating insurgency , approx 500 calls are recd by diff men every hour throughout the day, some cases could be serious say 2 % ,that makes it 10 men per hour, some can take this some feel helpless ,it is this helplessness which is frustrating, nothing to do with leave, only education and availability of good medical facilities for his family back home. Even in echs all top hospitals are not empanelled whereas for the guy in civvy govt job a scheme called cghs empanels all top hospitals.

 

[Ray]

pkroyal ↑

Generalisation and clichés do not support a discussion.

There are multiple issues dogging the army, which are the causes of stress :-
1. From your time of commissioning (1966/67 ? ) approx five decades have passed, troops in Infantry are not of the 'angootha chap " variety.
2. With better education, there is a huge rise in aspiration among troops.
3. All of our recruits no longer come from purely rural areas, they come from semi urban nuclear families also. there is little or no support of the joint family in the village.
4. Officer is not the " Mai baap / ann data " as troops gave us that status when I joined in 1981, at least in my regiment. they thought the pay I was disbursing on pay day was from some fund which the " Sahib Bahadur's" controlled. Now it comes directly to their bank account.

Troops were not angootha chhaps, even if your worn out clichés of apologists are taken to be the Gospel that spanned the years I was in the Army. When I commanded the unit, it was way in the fag of 80s and beginning of the 90s. Surely, they were not what you so colourfully attribute to as angootha chhaps!

I assure, education had visited them, there were the urbanites and they did have aspirations and ambitions, as you have it today.

May I assure you that the joint family system started breaking up when the Zamindari system was abolished and accelerated to vanishing from the time Land Ceiling came into being.

It is an exaggeration to take it that when you joined in 1981 the troops thought that their pay was coming from a fund controlled by the 'Sahib Bahadur'. When I joined decades before you did, they knew where there pay was coming from and that was the PAO! I am not too sure about your Regiment's ways, but I will ask Lt Gen Ashoke 'Tarzan' Kapoor of your Regiment when I meet him this year at our Course's Golden Jubilee get together at the NDA. I have served along with 5 SIKH LI twice, once when it was commanded by Lt Col (later Lt Gen) Chatterjee in 25 Div and then at Chamkot, commanded by a very fine Sikh Officer who was my Instructor in CIJW and US returned. Also at Kanpur, 12 SIKH LI at Kanpur commanded by Lt Col Mangat was from our Brigade and was located adjacent to my Company Lines. My own Company Commander Lt Col RS Vishwen went to Sikh LI. I would disagree with you if you feel that SIKH LI chaps felt that their pay came out of some fund that was of the 'Sahib Bahadur'. Before the money that they did not draw was left in their account with the PAO and which they withdrew while going on leave, now it is with the bank!

In fact, I found the SIKH LI chaps cleverer than my boys. To indicate so, I recall an incident when 12 SIKH LI was having their Annual Adm Inspection. They had flinched things from my Company Stores to make up their deficiencies, but were good enough to return it to the CQMH after the inspection along with a plate of pakoras and invited the CQMH and some more to join them for Barakhana that was being organised for a successful Adm Insp. That is another example to rubbish/debunk another old women's tale that the SIKH LI chaps are 'dicey Joes'. In fact, they are a fine set. And they are most innovative and enterprising. Hardly, the angootha chhaps!

5. Earlier when a " jawan's" child was sick a post card was sent to him by his wife / family which took about ten days to arrive at a far flung post. By then it would be assumed that the child has recovered. Today we are technology driven, the jawan's wife gives him a call on his mobile , probably when he is on sentry duty, cursing him as she has no one from the family to assist her in taking some one sick at home to the hospital, as she is staying in a semi urban area as a nuclear family to meet the educational needs of her children.
6. Today's world that includes you, me and everyone is a trifle more materialistic than what it was 50 years back.( Do I need to give statistics ??)
people in society ask for their rights, when not given due to various reasons, they sulk / agitate / get depressed. Our troops come from the same society.

I wonder how many jawans who go to field area leave or afford to leave their wives in a rented tenement in a city or village, far away from their homes or the military. Today, there are Separated Family Quarters (SFQ) in all military stations and Regimental Centres with KVs for education of their children.

Every SFQ is like a mini township with all the facilities within the complex. There is the MI Room with an Ambulance, the kirana shops, other shops, a truck comes to do the round with vegetable (and they are cheaper than the market, since it is got from the wholesale market), school buses to take the children to school and bring them back, CSD outlet, MES maintenance team, for electricity and infrastructure problem, sentries, and the rounds by the Monthly Station Officers Wives visit to the SFQ to interact with the wives to know of the issues that vex them. Therefore, to feel that a wife rings up on a mobile to chide that why is the soldier not there to take the child to hospital, though possible, is but the exception than a rule.

I would find it odd that a jawan does not take the advantage of the SFQ and the KV Schools for education of their children and instead leave his wife in a city in a rented room, all on her own, to fend for herself and her children!

It is correct that today materialism has crept in. Nothing wrong or unusual. However, the issue is that there is a difference between materialism and greed.

There is a difference between materialism and greed. This difference is being lost sight of in the contemporary Army society as a fallout of the general Indian society. Today's, newspaper indicates that prize crook Lt Gen Sahni ex DG ASC has been dismissed but saved from being cashiered by the Army Tribunal. He is the type who is a disgrace to the military since he could not differentiate materialism from greed! I would attribute this lack of character to poor grooming by his seniors.

I would like to assure you that the basic necessities and aspirations are within the reach of all ranks, commensurate to their pay. There is the CSD where you can buy white goods, and then there is the EMI that is always there by a variety of financial organisations and the banks. It is true that one cannot buy a Lamborghini on the pay or even the EMI, but today's officers can sure buy say, a Skoda and the PBOR a Maruti or Nano. In fact, should you visit a unit at PT you would find a whole lot of scooters, cars and what have you. In my time, it was a Hind or an Atlas cycle and that too, of the officers.

The moral is – aspiration, materialism, is all very good, but one has to learn to cut one's clothes as per the cloth.

That comes about my close interaction amongst each other and with his command. Fancily, it is called Man Management!

As far as demanding of right is concerned, when you give it to him before he asks or explain to him like a rational being that it is difficult, no one is a fool not to realise the situation.

Now, what does a soldier want – pay, leave, food.

Where the problem lies is that one leaves it to the PAO and the computer. Check your pension, you will find anomalies. Likewise, the Company Commander must be on the ball and check that all the DO IIs have been accounted for. One of the allowances that is missed out is the road mileage for troops who are up in the hills. Must check that and inform the trooper. He will know you care for him! Tell him and encourage him to avail LTA. Now, that some come under IT, teach him tax planning. In short, involve yourself with your men. Sadly, few officers have the inclination or the time! There likes the disconnect.

Leave. Plan it and announce the same to the company, after getting their choice, so that each knows when he is to do and so can plan ahead. Let leave not be a game of chance or a result of buttering up the senior JCO on his district affiliation with the JCO.

Casual Leave. Explain to the troops the distribution of strength commensurate to the operational requirement. Indicate the figures essential to meet the same. Indicate the number required for Adm duties. Indicate the figures for Course and TD. Let them join in, in feeling that they are not just 'working hands' and zombies. Then have a 'Leave Committee' composed of all ranks. Let them realise how difficult it is to balance operational requirements and leave. Soon, they will give up and leave it to you. But still consult them, as if they matter! Make people feel important and useful!

Food. A very sore point with all. Ensure the cooks have a relief. They are also human. Train non cooks to be replacement. Ensure that the chappatis are not uncooked on the rims. Ensure that the spices are available and there is no overdose to make it unpalatable. Reject substandard vegetable and take it up with the CO. Ensure that the meat is delivered as per the scale and that the liver etc are not taken away by the JCOs' Mess and also ensure that the liver etc after cooking is not consumed solely by NCOs. It might take away 'quality time' from your family, but once things settle down and they know you are capable of a 'surprise' visit, the skulduggery will be less. And the important lesson that will be driven home is that You Care. If there still some gaps, they will know that it is not because you did not try!

 

[Ray]

DO YOU BY ANY STRETCH OF IMAGINATION IMPLY WE GO BACK TO THE STONE AGE, OR COME IN BULLOCK CARTS AFTER LEAVE , WE LIVE IN A WORLD WITH 24 HOUR TELEVISION , OUR TROOPS ARE UNTRAINED ( IN MIND ), UNCOUTH & SEMI EDUCATED PEOPLE , THEY INTERPRET IMAGES THAT FLASH ACROSS THEIR TV SCREENS IN THEIR OWN WAY ,TRYING TO MAKE SOME SENSE OUT OF THIS INFORMATION OVERLOAD, CAN YOU CONTROL THE TELEVISION CHANNELS AND THE INDIRECT EFFECT OF ADS & TRIGGERING OF BUYING IMPULSE FOR GOOD LIVING AND LIFE STYLE, DOES TV ONLY ENTERTAIN / INFORM ?? OR RAISE ASPIRATION WHICH WILL MAKE A SPARTAN VULNERABLE TO
INDUCEMENT ?? QUESTION WITH NO READY MADE ANSWERS ?? OUR 11 LAKH PLUS ARMY IS GRAPPLING WITH THIS AND MUCH MORE IN TERMS OF MAN MANAGEMENT.

No, we don't have to go back to the Stoneage.

We are not Flintstones!

No one should have to come back from leave, to quote you, OR COME IN BULLOCK CARTS AFTER LEAVE.. In fact, I would be delighted if they came back in a space rocket!

I am surprised that on one hand you say, the troops are no longer angoota chhap[/] and then conveniently to suit your argument you say, OUR TROOPS ARE UNTRAINED ( IN MIND ), UNCOUTH & SEMI EDUCATED PEOPLE ,

I am afraid you have to make up your mind and clear the cobwebs that are impeding your thoughts.

Yes, you can explain to your troops the issue raised by the 24 x 7 TV channels. There is the vehicle called the 'Company Durbar' which keeping to contemporary democratic times is called 'Company Sainik Sammelan'. One does not have to parrot the Govt view, but an educated and informed Company Commander or a CO can enunciate the pros and con as applicable to the Army. And, as you yourself said, today's troops are no fools, and I would add that they are well aware of what the Army can do and what it cannot do and what is beyond their realm.

every day about 35,554 persons from the jawan's family all over india report sick at the hospitals,that makes it 1481 persons per hour, considering 1/3 of our troops are combating insurgency , approx 500 calls are recd by diff men every hour throughout the day, some cases could be serious say 2 % ,that makes it 10 men per hour, some can take this some feel helpless ,it is this helplessness which is frustrating, nothing to do with leave, only education and availability of good medical facilities for his family back home. Even in echs all top hospitals are not empanelled whereas for the guy in civvy govt job a scheme called cghs empanels all top hospitals.

I agree every time a wife on a mobile complains, it does give rise to helplessness, be it of an officer or a PBOR.

The issue is educating a wife of the Army's duties, obligations and constraints. Sadly, that is not done, be it of an offier or a PBOR.

How many 'normal' women will accept the prolonged separation of the husband from the family? Yet they do, because they are 'educated' of the service constraints.

This is where AWWA plays its part and if they don't, then they are failing their duties.

Helplessness?

If inspite of all the facilities available, the family fails to use them, then sure there will be the helplessness.

So, who is to blame?

What makes you feel that the MHs and CHs are not top of the line?

Are you aware that even a solider or his family can be referred to the top of the line hospital?

The facilities are there. It is to be used and if not used, then there is no ground to whine!

Do you know why those who are out of uniform , premature and otherwise, are the ones who whine?

It is because they have lost the security of the Mai Baap warm embrace that made them exult in their 'goldfish existence'!

Be it an officer, JCO or even an OR!

Even in echs all top hospitals are not empanelled whereas for the guy in civvy govt job a scheme called cghs empanels all top hospitals.

Indeed, but first to the dirty, inefficient Govt hospital to be referred..

Now which MH you feel equals the filth and lack of care of a Govt hospital?

The grass always greener on the other side of the hill