The Glorious Army of Hind: The Indian Army in Pictures

[rkhanna]

BTW to add to perspective. In the 90s we had a first rate Army, Airforce and Navy. Today we have a first rate AirForce and Navy that can stand up toe to toe in a knife fight with anybody on the planet. The Army after 3 decades of sustained COIN has blunted its edge and needs a SERIOUS paradigm shift in senior leadership thinking. It is already happening. The Continuous Joint Ex with with countries is for just that.

However the proof is in the pudding and we are a long way away still. Because for the most part the Army - which is at the forefront of any conflict - Uri, Bombay, Kargil etc evolves from one fire to another rather than doing it at a strategic level wholesomely. Hopefully the CDS is a step in the right direction.

 

[ram singh तोपची]

Ex #AjeyaWarrior V #IndianArmy & #UKArmy continue to train together. #Establishment of joint centre for #Planning & #Coordination to achieve greater #Synergy, was undertaken by both contingents. #Sharing best practices & experiences for operating in #CounterTerror environment.

british army is use less , worth less , obsolete and basura [ spanish for teash , rubbish, garbage ] it is better to train with Somali pirates then with these jokers . assam rifles , CRPF . BSF ITBP SSB has more experience then them

 

[IndiaRising]

I hope you know that using "Authority" to further your argument is a fallacy of logic. I have not attended NDA. But over 30 members of my extended family have served in the Indian Armed Forces post independence. Does that help?

the IA has adapted because it has to prosecute the mission at all costs. The Costs are HIGH. you seem to be afraid of admitting that. why? I can drive to pune from bombay on the Bombay Pune Expressway or the Old Highway. One is a POS one saves time and does less damage to my car. Both take me to Pune.

Again Results without context is an excercise in futility.

The rest of what you are saying is argumentative drivel. Its neither here nor there and has NOTHING to do with the fact that our Soldiers have been photographed with their eyes on a scope while entering a room.

PS - We too left Sri Lanka with our tail between our legs. But for the most part we WON every engagement in Sri Lanka. Same with the Americans in Vietnam and Same with Nato in Afghanistan and Iraq. The Political Will to prosecute a mission, a military's ability to to so CAN be at odds with each other. You are just gaslighting here now for the sake of it and you KNOW it.

AGAIN - for your understanding. STRATEGY and TACTICS are two different things.



the Bulk of Rank and File of the Indian Army not deployed on the IB or in J&K or involved in COIN is issued INSAS. These battalions down to a platoon and squad level regularly practice CQB with INSAS. I have seen it many a time when i have visited regimental center functions of my relatives.

If the Army was to roll across the border tomrrow and take Paki Towns to prepare a "beach head" then those towns will have to be cleared building by building - INSAS will the weapon they hold. These will be replaced by the AK203 / SIG 716 - there is nothing wrong with room clearing with a battle Rifle. the entirety of the first quarter of the Iraqi war was fought by Marins with the M16A2s doing just that.

Tactics make them more or less efficient not the tool.

Using authority to advance an argument is a fallacy of logic? Right, that’s why I would want to trust the opinion of a quack doctor on the streets than an allopathic MD who has trained for years to acquire his knowledge. Get real.

You seem to be forgetting that costs are high also for NATO in both Afghanistan and Iraq. You seem to conveniently leave that out of your argument. What else explains the 4 digit loss of personnel for an armed forces that is supposed to have an overarching advantage over the supposed “picks and stones” , stuck in 20th century approach of the Indian Army. As per your statements, NATO constantly adapts its tactics and training, yet their losses are quite similar to IA, if not higher. They have access to far more technogically- advanced equipment that can help achieve tactical victories, yet they have not been able to make any strategic gains over a time frame of 20 years now. Now, one might argue that there is a political factor at play as well, since military cannot oversee public policy and they do take orders from civilian leadership, which might diverge from the strategic doctrine laid out by the military. However, these problems were there in Kashmir as well, right from the beginning. Yet, Indian Army has been able to create conditions conducive enough for the right-minded politicians to take strategic decisions I.e. the abrogation of Article 370. The government would never have been able to do that without the Indian Army’s continued persistence at maintaining a relatively peaceful environment through tactical operations. So let’s not talk about political will and military capability. political will is only derived from the strategic gains made by the military, not the other way around. Strategic gains themselves are not possible without tactical dominance over the enemy. You can go from Bombay to Pune or Bangalore or Ahmedabad if you want, but if after 20 years you are still stuck in Bombay, you really haven’t made any progress at all. NATO has practically surrendered in Afghanistan and even in Iraq, they have been reduced to babysitting the Iraqi army with the occasional Special forces operation to take out a HvT like Baghdadi. This is not success by any means, it’s failure.

Again- You and some of the others on this forum have a notion that IA is some backwards army without proper training or proper equipment, which leads them to perform poorly with respect to CoD warriors, who have similar casualty rates, if not more. I cannot repeat this fact over and over again. Then come the excuses that Iraq and Afghanistan have superior enemies with access to RPGs and NVDs, yet JeM and LeT are trained by a professional army who can give them access to whatever equipment US throws at them in the annual aid package. In fact, they have dedicated an entire Mujahid Force to oversee this requirement. Basically, All I see are excuses being made on behalf of NATO, yet the IA, having performed far better in its duties, gets the major share of criticism because once upon a time, some photographer took a photo of a soldier looking in his scope.



To summarize- Results matter. Your context is your bias. I have my own, we all do but that doesn’t change the hard facts on the ground.

 

[IndiaRising]

british army is use less , worth less , obsolete and basura [ spanish for teash , rubbish, garbage ] it is better to train with Somali pirates then with these jokers . assam rifles , CRPF . BSF ITBP SSB has more experience then them


View attachment 43322

No dude, they have the best gadgets in the world. Experience in battle doesn’t count anymore.

 

[rkhanna]

Using authority to advance an argument is a fallacy of logic? Right, that’s why I would want to trust the opinion of a quack doctor on the streets than an allopathic MD who has trained for years to acquire his knowledge. Get real.

To summarize- Results matter. Your context is your bias. I have my own, we all do but that doesn’t change the hard facts on the ground.

You are still saying the same stuff without acknowledging a single thing i have said. So carry on. Every one is welcome to their misery.

if you are unclear - read your last post. then go back and read my other posts. if you still dont get it. let it be. You are right and i am wrong.

british army is use less , worth less , obsolete and basura [ spanish for teash , rubbish, garbage ] it is better to train with Somali pirates then with these jokers . assam rifles , CRPF . BSF ITBP SSB has more experience then them


View attachment 43322

Idiotic statements degenerate the level of conversation here.

 

[IndiaRising]

You are still saying the same stuff without acknowledging a single thing i have said. So carry on. Every one is welcome to their misery.

if you are unclear - read your last post. then go back and read my other posts. if you still dont get it. let it be. You are right and i am wrong.



Idiotic statements degenerate the level of conversation here.

I can see you have been in misery ever since your snowflake arguments have been challenged. I don’t need to look at any of your previous posts, since hitting your head on a brick wall only causes damage to yourself with no consequences to the wall. Peace.

 

[rkhanna]

I can see you have been in misery ever since your snowflake arguments have been challenged. I don’t need to look at any of your previous posts, since hitting your head on a brick wall only causes damage to yourself with no consequences to the wall. Peace.

Great! Your superiority has been established. My ignorance vanquished. Jai Ho.

 

[captscooby81]

Senior leadership especially the command today is all with Infantry Infantry Infantry again what Infantry COIN experience Infantry from K and NE nothing else . Where we are heading shows in Last 5 COAS all came from Infantry . Even latest promotions out of 9 , 7 are from infantry and only one from armoured .

Just a questions if IA had blunted its edges with COIN ops in K and NE , Don't the PA would have similar situation with its army fighting the talibs since 2000 in FATF region ?

BTW to add to perspective. In the 90s we had a first rate Army, Airforce and Navy. Today we have a first rate AirForce and Navy that can stand up toe to toe in a knife fight with anybody on the planet. The Army after 3 decades of sustained COIN has blunted its edge and needs a SERIOUS paradigm shift in senior leadership thinking. It is already happening. The Continuous Joint Ex with with countries is for just that.

However the proof is in the pudding and we are a long way away still. Because for the most part the Army - which is at the forefront of any conflict - Uri, Bombay, Kargil etc evolves from one fire to another rather than doing it at a strategic level wholesomely. Hopefully the CDS is a step in the right direction.

 

[rkhanna]

Just a questions if IA had blunted its edges with COIN ops in K and NE , Don't the PA would have similar situation with its army fighting the talibs since 2000 in FATF region ?

The PA and Pak Military is today a pale shadow of its glory days in the 80s and 90s. Decades of entrenched religious orientation and preparation for proxy war has removed any real quality they used to have (and they did. man for man they were some of the best soldiers in the world).

the degradation of capability is even worse in the Navy and the AirForces fall from grace has been the highest. The ability to openly lie and put such lie into permanent record is a testament to that (refering to the post Balakote engagement and the medals awarded) tells you ample of their proffesionalism today. Visavis the IAF which did a very public and unbiased diagnostic of the event.

Refering back to your comment on Army Leadership coming from COIN. The good thing is that they have experience in high density operations. the bad news is that their entire experience is sheltered in shallow COIN oeprations where they usually are operating with massive Overwhelming number superiority and from close to base.

The FIRST lessons from Kargil were that it was extremely extremely hard to reorient a COIN focused military to Conventional Warfare. (training, kit, logistics, ISR, C&C, Combined Arms, Air Support, Artillery) those lessons still havnt been implemented today. Or are being done at snails pace.

Again - that above is still at a strategy level. Nothing to do with the tactical evolution of training down to the smallest unit (Squad level).

If you ever get a chance to visit the Armoured Corp Center in Ahmednagar have a chat with the instructors. The Evolution of training and tactics involving Armour, Mech Infantry and CAS is amazing. They continuously monitor what their counterparts are doing or have experience in the last 2 decades. (including the pasting Assads Armour took in Syria!!)

The Infantry however is stuck in some sort of inertia - The US Army Rangers sensing a lack of their own training built up in CIJWS before deploying to Astan (early 2000s) - Their training evolution has now grown leaps and bounds since then but the CIJWS is still stuck where it is - primary reason is that the OPFOR more or less stays the same. The kit our soldiers have to act as force multipliers stay the same. Lessons from RR dont get passed down (to HAWS, Parvat Ghatak or CIJWS) in an institutional manner so everything is falling between stools.

it took the death of Captain Pawan (if you remmeber) to change the way SF deploys in Kashmir. if you look at the last few SOF deaths you will see severe deficiencies in ISR, Medical Support etc that continue to account for deaths.

The NSG - with the worlds wealth of experience in CT/HRT had to go back to GSG-9 to relearn the basis post bombay and today they have come out a stronger, more agile unit.

However - with Infantry for some reason their evolution does not seem to have institutionalized support. (can you believe that we have issued our ghatak units B&T 9mms with silencers?!!!) - IMO this is a command failure of sorts.

But then whom am I to say anything. after all God Loves the Infantry. The heavens are populated with them

PS Edited: The Pakis have not been fighting the Taliban. They have been wiping out entire population centers with stand off Armour, artillery and Air power. Their experience counts for very little

 

[captscooby81]

Well that's what my worry was with entire army got stuck in COIN in kashmir what if tomorrow we have a situation and we need to roll over into Pak , Hope we have few infantry regiments who are trained well in executing operations with armoured divisions , Hope IBGs address this issue sooner .

We can handle PA but when things come to PLA it will be completely different game with their well established theatre commands.

All my hopes are now lying on Current GoC of SWC Lt.Gen A S Kler. Heard great things about him from a Col from 66 armoured .Hope he goes up to COAS level and implement his thinking's and strategies

Yup pakis have the glory of using F-16 to bomb villages

The PA and Pak Military is today a pale shadow of its glory days in the 80s and 90s. Decades of entrenched religious orientation and preparation for proxy war has removed any real quality they used to have (and they did. man for man they were some of the best soldiers in the world).

the degradation of capability is even worse in the Navy and the AirForces fall from grace has been the highest. The ability to openly lie and put such lie into permanent record is a testament to that (refering to the post Balakote engagement and the medals awarded) tells you ample of their proffesionalism today. Visavis the IAF which did a very public and unbiased diagnostic of the event.

Refering back to your comment on Army Leadership coming from COIN. The good thing is that they have experience in high density operations. the bad news is that their entire experience is sheltered in shallow COIN oeprations where they usually are operating with massive Overwhelming number superiority and from close to base.

The FIRST lessons from Kargil were that it was extremely extremely hard to reorient a COIN focused military to Conventional Warfare. (training, kit, logistics, ISR, C&C, Combined Arms, Air Support, Artillery) those lessons still havnt been implemented today. Or are being done at snails pace.

Again - that above is still at a strategy level. Nothing to do with the tactical evolution of training down to the smallest unit (Squad level).

If you ever get a chance to visit the Armoured Corp Center in Ahmednagar have a chat with the instructors. The Evolution of training and tactics involving Armour, Mech Infantry and CAS is amazing. They continuously monitor what their counterparts are doing or have experience in the last 2 decades. (including the pasting Assads Armour took in Syria!!)

The Infantry however is stuck in some sort of inertia - The US Army Rangers sensing a lack of their own training built up in CIJWS before deploying to Astan (early 2000s) - Their training evolution has now grown leaps and bounds since then but the CIJWS is still stuck where it is - primary reason is that the OPFOR more or less stays the same. The kit our soldiers have to act as force multipliers stay the same. Lessons from RR dont get passed down (to HAWS, Parvat Ghatak or CIJWS) in an institutional manner so everything is falling between stools.

it took the death of Captain Pawan (if you remmeber) to change the way SF deploys in Kashmir. if you look at the last few SOF deaths you will see severe deficiencies in ISR, Medical Support etc that continue to account for deaths.

The NSG - with the worlds wealth of experience in CT/HRT had to go back to GSG-9 to relearn the basis post bombay and today they have come out a stronger, more agile unit.

However - with Infantry for some reason their evolution does not seem to have institutionalized support. (can you believe that we have issued our ghatak units B&T 9mms with silencers?!!!) - IMO this is a command failure of sorts.

But then whom am I to say anything. after all God Loves the Infantry. The heavens are populated with them

PS Edited: The Pakis have not been fighting the Taliban. They have been wiping out entire population centers with stand off Armour, artillery and Air power. Their experience counts for very little

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

The PA and Pak Military is today a pale shadow of its glory days in the 80s and 90s. Decades of entrenched religious orientation and preparation for proxy war has removed any real quality they used to have (and they did. man for man they were some of the best soldiers in the world).

the degradation of capability is even worse in the Navy and the AirForces fall from grace has been the highest. The ability to openly lie and put such lie into permanent record is a testament to that (refering to the post Balakote engagement and the medals awarded) tells you ample of their proffesionalism today. Visavis the IAF which did a very public and unbiased diagnostic of the event.

Refering back to your comment on Army Leadership coming from COIN. The good thing is that they have experience in high density operations. the bad news is that their entire experience is sheltered in shallow COIN oeprations where they usually are operating with massive Overwhelming number superiority and from close to base.

The FIRST lessons from Kargil were that it was extremely extremely hard to reorient a COIN focused military to Conventional Warfare. (training, kit, logistics, ISR, C&C, Combined Arms, Air Support, Artillery) those lessons still havnt been implemented today. Or are being done at snails pace.

Again - that above is still at a strategy level. Nothing to do with the tactical evolution of training down to the smallest unit (Squad level).

If you ever get a chance to visit the Armoured Corp Center in Ahmednagar have a chat with the instructors. The Evolution of training and tactics involving Armour, Mech Infantry and CAS is amazing. They continuously monitor what their counterparts are doing or have experience in the last 2 decades. (including the pasting Assads Armour took in Syria!!)

The Infantry however is stuck in some sort of inertia - The US Army Rangers sensing a lack of their own training built up in CIJWS before deploying to Astan (early 2000s) - Their training evolution has now grown leaps and bounds since then but the CIJWS is still stuck where it is - primary reason is that the OPFOR more or less stays the same. The kit our soldiers have to act as force multipliers stay the same. Lessons from RR dont get passed down (to HAWS, Parvat Ghatak or CIJWS) in an institutional manner so everything is falling between stools.

it took the death of Captain Pawan (if you remmeber) to change the way SF deploys in Kashmir. if you look at the last few SOF deaths you will see severe deficiencies in ISR, Medical Support etc that continue to account for deaths.

The NSG - with the worlds wealth of experience in CT/HRT had to go back to GSG-9 to relearn the basis post bombay and today they have come out a stronger, more agile unit.

However - with Infantry for some reason their evolution does not seem to have institutionalized support. (can you believe that we have issued our ghatak units B&T 9mms with silencers?!!!) - IMO this is a command failure of sorts.

But then whom am I to say anything. after all God Loves the Infantry. The heavens are populated with them

PS Edited: The Pakis have not been fighting the Taliban. They have been wiping out entire population centers with stand off Armour, artillery and Air power. Their experience counts for very little

Brilliant post.Any comments on the indo-china army balance ?

 

[rkhanna]

Well that's what my worry was with entire army got stuck in COIN in kashmir what if tomorrow we have a situation and we need to roll over into Pak , Hope we have few infantry regiments who are trained well in executing operations with armoured divisions , Hope IBGs address this issue sooner .

We can handle PA but when things come to PLA it will be completely different game with their well established theatre commands.

All my hopes are now lying on Current GoC of SWC Lt.Gen A S Kler. Heard great things about him from a Col from 66 armoured .Hope he goes up to COAS level and implement his thinking's and strategies

Yup pakis have the glory of using F-16 to bomb villages

Well Like in Kashmir and Sri Lanka and Africa and everywhere since WWI this Army will adapt and overcome. The Starkness with Pakistan is that they have an ability to bring a decent amount of firepower to bear visavis us while we have to hold a decent % of our assets in rserve (china/ Maritime/ Bangla border). What we do have Visavis Pakistan is a overwhelming superiority in Artillery (Including CMs, BMs, etc), that coupled with Air Force with Navy enforcing an economic blockade its only a race against time for pakistan. We will Struggle in the Mountains (everybody does) but we will take the desert and plains - Lahore, Islamabad, Karachi, Gwadar, Pindi can be hit without ever having to set foot on Paki Land. Any Holding action will be shallow ingresses. - We dont have the money or capability to hold paki territory. Our IBGS and Logistics are slowly being fine tuned and recent large scale excersise proof that. Less said about the PN the better.

the PAF is an ineresting study. Like the post Balakote action proved that they can bring a higher number of AC to bear in a shorter period of time because as a country they ahve no strategic dept. The first merge of Air Combat will be bloody for both sides. However post the first few encouters there wont be a PAF left.

Coming to China - We will face an extremely dense AD Airspace over Tibet. On an Infantry Level i have good confidence of our men dominating those mountains but shere infra + scale will ensure we will fight a defensive battle while the border will bear the brunt of heavy artillery and missle forces.

The PLUS for India is that ALL our aircraft (close to bordeR) will be taking off from sea level. With Full complement of Fuel and Weapons Payload. Their Loiter and efficiency over the skies of Tibet will give them a high degree of superiority over the PLAAF (though again due to numbers + AD of PLAAF it will be defensive). In Tibet the PLAAF will be either taking off from high altittude or will be coming in from long range flights via AAR. Their training and commitment of troops is a BIG question mark. Refer to UN Operation Story where the PLA abandoned post and the IA had to come to the rescue.

The one big worry with China would be their missle forces which can hit our bases/infra with impunity - simply put they will win a war of attrition in the long term. (even if we have S400s etc etc - they will always have more cheap ASMs to keep throwing our way - Again will be a game of cat and mouse - but overall IMO India Should Hold China Comfortably before international intervention calls for a truce.

Unlike w/ Pakistan where any conflict will be over within 2-4 weeks with China can drag out for a while. In the end then we will end up loosing to their capital reserves.

Brilliant post.Any comments on the indo-china army balance ?

IMO with respect to the border - There is very little imbalance with respect to Indo-China if you look at it holistically, missle forces and counter measures of such will be the tie breaker.

Question is in china to force a diplomatic outcome do we expand the conflict to the SEA via the Navy, AF and SOFs ? - IMO - that could force the PLAN into the IOR and our backyard - advantage us. nobody knows these waters (malacca straits) better than the IN.

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

The PA and Pak Military is today a pale shadow of its glory days in the 80s and 90s. Decades of entrenched religious orientation and preparation for proxy war has removed any real quality they used to have (and they did. man for man they were some of the best soldiers in the world).

the degradation of capability is even worse in the Navy and the AirForces fall from grace has been the highest. The ability to openly lie and put such lie into permanent record is a testament to that (refering to the post Balakote engagement and the medals awarded) tells you ample of their proffesionalism today. Visavis the IAF which did a very public and unbiased diagnostic of the event.

Refering back to your comment on Army Leadership coming from COIN. The good thing is that they have experience in high density operations. the bad news is that their entire experience is sheltered in shallow COIN oeprations where they usually are operating with massive Overwhelming number superiority and from close to base.

The FIRST lessons from Kargil were that it was extremely extremely hard to reorient a COIN focused military to Conventional Warfare. (training, kit, logistics, ISR, C&C, Combined Arms, Air Support, Artillery) those lessons still havnt been implemented today. Or are being done at snails pace.

Again - that above is still at a strategy level. Nothing to do with the tactical evolution of training down to the smallest unit (Squad level).

If you ever get a chance to visit the Armoured Corp Center in Ahmednagar have a chat with the instructors. The Evolution of training and tactics involving Armour, Mech Infantry and CAS is amazing. They continuously monitor what their counterparts are doing or have experience in the last 2 decades. (including the pasting Assads Armour took in Syria!!)

The Infantry however is stuck in some sort of inertia - The US Army Rangers sensing a lack of their own training built up in CIJWS before deploying to Astan (early 2000s) - Their training evolution has now grown leaps and bounds since then but the CIJWS is still stuck where it is - primary reason is that the OPFOR more or less stays the same. The kit our soldiers have to act as force multipliers stay the same. Lessons from RR dont get passed down (to HAWS, Parvat Ghatak or CIJWS) in an institutional manner so everything is falling between stools.

it took the death of Captain Pawan (if you remmeber) to change the way SF deploys in Kashmir. if you look at the last few SOF deaths you will see severe deficiencies in ISR, Medical Support etc that continue to account for deaths.

The NSG - with the worlds wealth of experience in CT/HRT had to go back to GSG-9 to relearn the basis post bombay and today they have come out a stronger, more agile unit.

However - with Infantry for some reason their evolution does not seem to have institutionalized support. (can you believe that we have issued our ghatak units B&T 9mms with silencers?!!!) - IMO this is a command failure of sorts.

But then whom am I to say anything. after all God Loves the Infantry. The heavens are populated with them

PS Edited: The Pakis have not been fighting the Taliban. They have been wiping out entire population centers with stand off Armour, artillery and Air power. Their experience counts for very little

You have an excellent post and wrote better than our defense journalists.

However,two points you made which are slightly biased which are making your 10/10 post .01 imperfect and i urge you to not do that as you are a very non biased member.

Firstly,Pak Infantry,commando brigade and Special forces have faught very bloody battles with taliban.I say so coz i follow infantry and specially paki army.

I dont know its your lack of following them or patriotism that made you write that they use only arty and armour but thats not completely true.

Taliban is a formidable opponent which uses all the weapons from PKM to RCL guns.And hence that has to be used if u ask me.

SSG has been doing some covert ops against taliban and their infantry has cleaned up villages in room intervention ops and securing villages.

Light commando battalion has been born as a result of the gap found out between the infantry and the special forces.

Secondly,you said Chinese troops are a matter of concern as they have surrendered.I agree but who hasnt surrendered?

Havent Our Para Commandos surrendered?.. 10 para once surrendered in Sri lanka against LTTE and was rescued by own troops and same with Op Khukri.

PLA also has some of very fine soldiers.

I would not point this normally considering the standard of intelligence in this forum..but you are a man of knowledge so i pointed out.

Loved reading your post.

 

[rkhanna]

Firstly,Pak Infantry,commando brigade and Special forces have faught very bloody battles with taliban.I say so coz i follow infantry and specially paki army.

I dont dont its your lack of following them or patriotism that made you write that they use only arty and armour but thats not completely true.

Taliban is a formidable opponent which uses all the weapons from PKM to RCL guns.And hence that has to be used if u ask me.

SSG has been doing some covert ops against taliban and their infantry has cleaned up villages in room intervention ops and securing villages.

Light commando battalion has been born as a result of the gap found out between the infantey and the special forces.

I agree with you 100%. what i said above was indeed incomplete. I was talking about the Pak Military in generic terms. With regards to their 2008/2009 Push against the Talibs

1- The Frontier Force/ Rangers preceeded most of their Regular Infantry in any operations often with Armour - Their Long Range Stand Off munitions did the primary punishing
2. The Pakis LOST alot of Armour and personel in these operations. Aiding the Talibs was the Haqqani network. probably some of the best irregular fighters in the world after the LTTE and IRA.
3. The SSG has done some OUTSTANDING work in that region but with a big BUT
4. i would not pass on the same praise for the avg pakistani grunt anymore (irrespective of the Cambrian Patrol medals they win) -

- My comment was from a more wholistic look at the Pak Military - Today they the largest Business Owners and Land owners in Pakistan. the PE Valuation of the Fauji Foundation would be larger than the cumalative market cap of the Karachi Stock Exhange.

The Pak Military Leadership are now wealth creaters not nations defenders.
Secondly the Pakistani Military (post Zia ulaq) is more and more entrenched with military fundamentalism backed with Saudi money and Local Mullah infra. the intersection point of Money and Religion has had a severe degrading effect on their entire military over the past 3 decades. and yes INCLUDING the SSG. That being said the SSG will continue to be a supremely respected organization in India. But certain "assesments" are slowly starting to see patterns of cracks. (if we meet for a beer happy to talk further)

the LCB - is basically a need to fill a vacant need for now commando capability in Pakistan (In India we have the Para's, Scout Battalions, SFF to fill that role).

the LCB was primarily raised as counter the deficiency in Pak Infantry capability. the SSG had to end up being used repeatedly for frontal assaults as the Regular officer cadre was not upto the task. Pak needed a light infantry capability which they sorely lacked either in concept of training. specially in prosecuting missions in mountain areas. So as such visavis the IA they are behind the curve.


Lastly - in my life so far i have to 4 family funerals due to a Pakistani Bullet, please allow me my bias.

 

[rkhanna]

PLA also has some of very fine soldiers.

I would not point this normally considering the standard of intelligence in this forum..but you are a man of knowledge so i pointed out.

Loved reading your post.

Ofcourse! Everyone has the right to love and fight for their country. PLA is no different.

Also honestly none of the views are fully mine. its having conversations with older timers and bribing them with rum or sitting quietly at regimental gatherings one learns alot

 

[rkhanna]

Secondly,you said Chinese troops are a matter of concern as they have surrendered.I agree but who hasnt surrendered?

They surrendered without contact, left civilian population at the mercy of the OPFOR and abandoned their weapons. I would not find very many militaries in such a situation. Compounded with the fact that the IA was able to retake the outpost and establish order and save the population - so it was not the most difficult of challenging of requirements.

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

They surrendered without contact, left civilian population at the mercy of the OPFOR and abandoned their weapons. I would not find very many militaries in such a situation. Compounded with the fact that the IA was able to retake the outpost and establish order and save the population - so it was not the most difficult of challenging of requirements.

Maybe their regular troops in UN were not motivated by the cause of blue berets and they decided to not sacrifice themselves in foreign lands for a cause which is not theirs?

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

I agree with you 100%. what i said above was indeed incomplete. I was talking about the Pak Military in generic terms. With regards to their 2008/2009 Push against the Talibs

1- The Frontier Force/ Rangers preceeded most of their Regular Infantry in any operations often with Armour - Their Long Range Stand Off munitions did the primary punishing
2. The Pakis LOST alot of Armour and personel in these operations. Aiding the Talibs was the Haqqani network. probably some of the best irregular fighters in the world after the LTTE and IRA.
3. The SSG has done some OUTSTANDING work in that region but with a big BUT
4. i would not pass on the same praise for the avg pakistani grunt anymore (irrespective of the Cambrian Patrol medals they win) -

- My comment was from a more wholistic look at the Pak Military - Today they the largest Business Owners and Land owners in Pakistan. the PE Valuation of the Fauji Foundation would be larger than the cumalative market cap of the Karachi Stock Exhange.

The Pak Military Leadership are now wealth creaters not nations defenders.
Secondly the Pakistani Military (post Zia ulaq) is more and more entrenched with military fundamentalism backed with Saudi money and Local Mullah infra. the intersection point of Money and Religion has had a severe degrading effect on their entire military over the past 3 decades. and yes INCLUDING the SSG. That being said the SSG will continue to be a supremely respected organization in India. But certain "assesments" are slowly starting to see patterns of cracks. (if we meet for a beer happy to talk further)

the LCB - is basically a need to fill a vacant need for now commando capability in Pakistan (In India we have the Para's, Scout Battalions, SFF to fill that role).

the LCB was primarily raised as counter the deficiency in Pak Infantry capability. the SSG had to end up being used repeatedly for frontal assaults as the Regular officer cadre was not upto the task. Pak needed a light infantry capability which they sorely lacked either in concept of training. specially in prosecuting missions in mountain areas. So as such visavis the IA they are behind the curve.


Lastly - in my life so far i have to 4 family funerals due to a Pakistani Bullet, please allow me my bias.

I wont wind having beer and continuing the conversation.

However my friend how much you and me agree that Pak Army is the biggest Napaki thing in the region i have read history and always saw that only and only one thing matters is war.. your tactics.

It doesnt matter if you are a good husband or you live in a brothel.. it doesnt matter if your generals are humble or live luxurious life.

The biggest problem of Pakistan with India is not this.

The problem Pakistan faces like you pointed out is stratergic depth.Most of the resources are in the plains.

The IA has a BIG number and a lot of tanks plus air power to destroy everything in the plains... also these plains are those plains they cannot nuke no matter how much they shout.

However,we are incapable of keeping the territory in the long run. I think we are more suited for a quick blitzkrieg deep where their heart is... demoralising them and getting them to sign agreements and leave.

Islam is a great brainwash for people in that region..we should never count that off.

 

[Chinmoy]

Live operation pic..check the sling position.


But why..and how ever many pics i post you wont agree.

So i rest my case...i would rather debate with someone who is neutral to a cause.

Live operation pic..check the sling position.


But why..and how ever many pics i post you wont agree.

So i rest my case...i would rather debate with someone who is neutral to a cause.

When the user has no issue with his sling position, I just don't understand why you are getting your back on burner.

Or may be you are right. Wrapping up the sling around weapon prevents it from getting entangled in any undergrowth or potential obstruction which would hamper the overall movement of the soldier. This is a very bad idea. May be we should keep our slings something like this.

I think we should follow US soldiers because they are BHEST.

But why..and how ever many pics i post you wont agree.

So i rest my case...i would rather debate with someone who is not a fan boy of US army.

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

Lastly - in my life so far i have to 4 family funerals due to a Pakistani Bullet, please allow me my bias.

Respect your family for their sacrifice!

My old man was a RR commander in the days Anantnag was called Islamabad and was a terrorist camp.

Have lost one relative in RR and best friends in cross border loc ghatak raids.

Most of my family is in the army ..and i am the only civilian man of my generation.