Tejas Mark 3

[Kunal Biswas]

India's indigenously developed supersonic fighter aircraft to be developed into a stealth platform.

Among these would be a programme to integrate technologies developed as part of India's Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft [AMCA] programme into the Light Combat Aircraft [LCA], Tejas. This variant would be identified as Mark III.

The Mk. 3 is to have up to 70% composite content, almost double the current version's level, and could be powered by India's Kaveri turbofan, if that troubled program gets back on track."

Source : Stealth version of India's Light Combat Aircraft [LCA] Tejas, Mk. 3 on the cards - AA Me, IN

 

[arnabmit]

Wow! Hope they have some pictures in Defexpo!!!

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

i don't think it is a iaf approved project though it seems to be a logical conclusion to to the tejas project if it meets the timeline 2017-2022.again i think another wise think would to work towards indigenizing the later models of fgfa aircraft like making radars,engine avionics for fgfa so that after the 214 aircrafts inducted as per pmf contact with the russians we need to start an ingeneous production line for our fgfa (and of course amca) and keep the russians out of the loop.

 

[rvjpheonix]

That article is from 2012 and that was the only statement by saraswat. We havent heard about it for quite some time now. If at all we go for it it will be only after mark 2 is completed. But I would love to see a mk3 as a logical upgrade of the program.

 

[rugved]

This is good news but I'm apprehensive about the powerplant of the aircraft----Kaveri.

 

[happy]

That article is from 2012 and that was the only statement by saraswat. We havent heard about it for quite some time now. If at all we go for it it will be only after mark 2 is completed. But I would love to see a mk3 as a logical upgrade of the program.

I would honestly love it if Saraswat can spring a surprise and unveil the mk3 for flight tests shortly. Wishful thinking

 

[Kunal Biswas]

The need for MK3 right now is not a priority, It is important that DRDO and HAL induct MK1 and finalize an upgrade program which should be at similar technological level of MK2 ..

MK3 is an evolution of Tejas and its important such plans should be ready and implemented in right time, There should be no case like HF-24 ..

==============

IAF must relise that future wars can be long and defensive against an foe which does not rely on Import and has well oiled defense industry design to chunk out fighters and Missiles like sausages, They are quite capable to replenished their loses in both machine and Manpower ..

Coming up abt Man power, IAF must have an separate reserve force of fighter pilots so does transport, Like Indian Army have Territorial Army as reserves ..

Making a solider is hard, Making a fighter pilot is even harder, Strangely IAF have no concern abt reserves ..

 

[abingdonboy]

@Kunal Biswas

Does this point towards a MK.3?

Bangalore, December 20
Defence Minister A K Antony today said the government had not yet given up its plan of powering the light combat aircraft (LCA) Tejas with the indigenously made Kaveri engine.

In a press conference here, which followed a function where LCA powered by American GE 404 engine was given the initial operational clearance (IOC) making it compliant with the requirements of the IAF for a battle ready aircraft, Antony said, "We have not abandoned the Kaveri engine project yet."

The Defence Minister said while the LCA Mk 1 and Mk 2 varieties would be powered by the American GE 404 and GE 414 engines, respectively, Kaveri engine could be used to power the next LCA series.

He said the IAF would have two squadrons and four squadrons each of LCA Mk 1 and Mk 2, respectively. There would still be requirement of more planes as the IAF would eventually require about 200 planes to replace the entire MiG 21 fleet.

Kaveri engine, being developed by the Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE), a Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) lab in Bangalore, was supposed to power the LCA initially. However, Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), also a DRDO lab handling the LCA project, opted for the American GE engine as wait for Kaveri engine continued.

Antony, who spoke at length on the necessity of indigenisation in his speech in the IOC function, emphasised it once again. He talked about the aircraft carrier being built at Kochi, the next edition of the Arjun Battle Tank and Astra missiles being developed locally.

The success of the LCA project had shown the world that India was capable of making a modern aircraft, Antony said and added that the success would also give a big boost to the indigenisation efforts in the country.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

MK3 is under paper for now & It will be put in practice after MK2 get inducted ..

 

[A chauhan]

If you compare pictures of LCA you'll notice that it's very small fighter, missiles look bigger with it, it hardly has space for internal bays to carry missiles, you'll need to increase its size to AMCA for that. I don't know how ADA will do that

 

[Kunal Biswas]

It can be done i think, Otherwise it wont be considered for a further in stealth design ..
@ersakthivel, can shade some light here ..

If you compare pictures of LCA you'll notice that it's very small fighter, missiles look bigger with it, it hardly has space for internal bays to carry missiles, you'll need to increase its size to AMCA for that. I don't know how ADA will do that

 

[arnabmit]

Maybe a pure interceptor with 2 BVRAAMs and 2 WVRAAMs only, beside the air intake, where the Y duct tapers down to the engine.

If you compare pictures of LCA you'll notice that it's very small fighter, missiles look bigger with it, it hardly has space for internal bays to carry missiles, you'll need to increase its size to AMCA for that. I don't know how ADA will do that

 

[ersakthivel]

It can very easily be converted into a single engined or twin engined stealth fighter. And it will be. Suneet krishna's reply to my question about , IS there a plan for Tejas mk-3 stealth was,"Not Yet.".

it doesn't mean it hasn't been considered for that stealth role, since we all know V.K.Saraswath has alluded to the stealth tejas mk-3 possibility many times,

SO the obvious meaning is work on stealth concept hasn't been started. Since with their third updated ASR the design of AMCA has become very different from tejas. SO many of the concepts studies done for the old MCA tail less stealth fighter project below ,can be applied for tejas mk-3. It was openly stated by V.K. Sarawath ex-DRDO chief many a times.

A few concepts studies were done for the above old discarded MCA prototypes a decade before and they are available with ADA. And they can be used for tejas mk-3. But the first priority will be to finish the tejas mk-2.

may be once tejas mk-2 enters production stage after design freeze this march, some prelim studies on this concept may take place with the aim of making tejas mk-3.

 

[ersakthivel]

If you compare pictures of LCA you'll notice that it's very small fighter, missiles look bigger with it, it hardly has space for internal bays to carry missiles, you'll need to increase its size to AMCA for that. I don't know how ADA will do that

Enlarging the fighter design while keeping the key figures like Wing loading , thrust to weight ratio and cranked delta wing design as close in proportion to the Tejas mk-2 will yield space for tejas mk-3 with the internal weapon bays.

Because the max AOA , wing loading ,and cranked delta wing shape for tejas mk-3 stealth was already tested and validated for a decade with 2500 test flight on tejas mk-1. So test points to be cleared will be not as high for stealth mk-3 as that was for mk-1.

Chances are very bright since most fighters in stealth mode don't carry more than a ton or two of weapon weight in their internal bomb bays.

So if the ability to super cruise is factored in with flight certification of k-9 getting done by three or four years, if IAF wants ADA can put two K-9s and make tejas mk-3 very quickly as they have done for tejas mk-2.

the reason tejas mk-2 development is expected to be fast is , it will keep the same wing loading as that of tejas mk-1 and get a much higher TWR .

And the wing shape which was refined and tested over a decade of wind tunnel and 2500 test flights is going to be the same for tejas mk-2. thats why ADA chief has said in an interview , the first model built for tejas mk-2 program will straight away be the production fighter and there will be no PVs for tejas mk-2.

With very low production cost and effective ASEA radars and long range BVR missiles in internal bomb bay it will be a priceless asset that can be deployed in huge numbers for air defence purpose and limited close air support for troops in forward area with PGMs

 

[pmaitra]

A few concepts studies were done for the above old discarded MCA prototypes a decade before and they are available with ADA. And they can be used for tejas mk-3. But the first priority will be to finish the tejas mk-2.

may be once tejas mk-2 enters production stage after design freeze this march, some prelim studies on this concept may take place with the aim of making tejas mk-3.

So this is a tailless concept. Nice. It has to have good thrust vectoring for turning - not impossible. India already has good gimballing technology that it uses in its rocket engines. It needs to modify that to work in jet turbines.

 

[ersakthivel]

So this is a tailless concept. Nice. It has to have good thrust vectoring for turning - not impossible. India already has good gimballing technology that it uses in its rocket engines. It needs to modify that to work in jet turbines.

Well , it was a fully tail less strike oriented design put forward by ADA with the same tested wing shape and wing loading of tejas mk-1. If much more agility is now demanded by IAF then AMCA like tail can be added for the concept,since it has twin engines for supporting the extra weight of fuselage and tail section.

This model was designed with two K-9 kaveri engines with around super cruising capacity with just a dry thrust of 2x54 kn (108 Kn dry thrust )

and around mach -2 top speeds with 2x80 kn(160 Kn after burner or wet thrust ) in mind .

Now reports are most of the issues with Kaveri K-9 model are refined and it will be entering flight validation phase in a year or so time.

Some reports about DRML transferring the Single Crystal Blades (which have higher temp withstanding capacity and longer MTBO hours ) to Koraput Kanpur unit of HAL for producing the engine blades of AL series of engine for Su-30 MKI.

If reports are true then DMRL has already got their lab version of their SCB certified with CEMILAC and was working out the batch production for SCBs ,

In a recent interiew the ADA DG for aeronautics tamimani who was the CEMILAC chief has said that the batch production SCB from DMRL has been sent for them for certification. if these are succefull the Tejas mk-3 will have all of the most critical components made in india, making it free from any sanctions impact.

 

[pmaitra]

Well , it was a fully tail less strike oriented design put forward by ADA with the same tested wing shape and wing loading of tejas mk-1. If much more agility is now demanded by IAF then AMCA like tail can be added for the concept,

This model was designed with two K-9 kaveri engines with around super cruising capacity with just a dry thrust of 2x54 kn (108 Kn dry thrust )

and around mach -2 top speeds with 2x80 kn(160 Kn after burner or wet thrust ) in mind .

So

For agility, I think we can do away with the tail, but the exhaust nozzles will have to be able to vector like that of the F-35.

Someone correct me if I am wrong.

 

[ersakthivel]

For agility, I think we can do away with the tail, but the exhaust nozzles will have to be able to vector like that of the F-35.

Someone correct me if I am wrong.

Even though we don't need horizontal tail fin (as in Tejas ,GRIPPEN RAFALE and TYPHOON), we may need two short vertical tail fins canted at 45 deg like AMCA design in place of one long vertical tail fin on the above models. ,

which can be placed on the edge of the tail ,over the top of the engine.

Only aircraft designers can give accurate answer on this subject.

 

[mehrotraprince]

Some reports about DRML transferring the Single Crystal Blades (which have higher temp withstanding capacity and longer MTBO hours ) to Koraput Kanpur unit of HAL for producing the engine blades of AL series of engine for Su-30 MKI.

I don't know how authentic this document it is, but this is what I found on internet.

 

[ersakthivel]

I don't know how authentic this document it is, but this is what I found on internet.

DRDO DG for aeronauitcs Tamilmani,(chief of CEMILAC ) has said that DMRL has sent the batch production SCBs for certification. We don't know what is the temp withstanding capacity of these SCBs.

The lab produced SCB from DMRL has already passed the certification at CEMILAC.

And DMDL has transferred the tech of SCB batch production to HAL , Koraput unit which produces Al Engines for Su-30 MKI. This too has been mentioned in some net reports.