MRCA news and discussion /feb-june 2009

Discussion in 'Indian Air Force' started by nitesh, Feb 12, 2009.

?

Which Aircraft should win

Poll closed Jan 13, 2011.
  1. Dassault Rafale

    28 vote(s)
    38.9%
  2. Eurofighter Typhoon

    7 vote(s)
    9.7%
  3. Mikoyan MiG-35

    15 vote(s)
    20.8%
  4. JAS 39 Gripen

    6 vote(s)
    8.3%
  5. Lockheed Martin F-16 IN

    2 vote(s)
    2.8%
  6. Boeing Hornet E/F Superhornet F-18

    14 vote(s)
    19.4%
  1. Payeng

    Payeng Daku Mongol Singh

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    I never said France, I said Russia please be careful while you read, now its a debate about Mig-35, more over France is not Russia.

    -This very fact makes France give access to all its technology and more
    -Also yourself you used the word fantastic.
    -It is not what you product have but what I need- This makes a buyer seller relation.
    -moreover selling Subs to Pak is not offended unless you sell the same concept to your immediate opponent.
     
  2. shiv

    shiv Regular Member

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    by the way they sold us scorpene's which are much better than the agosta's....and lets face it...from these frenchies older records they dont give a damn about the consequences...you throw the money-->you get the tech....they made a nuclear plant for iraq for crying out loud....
     
  3. Singh

    Singh Phat Cat Administrator

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    The price figures are all wrong imo, & please post links to support your claims.
    And don't you use too many colours its tough to read.
     
  4. shiv

    shiv Regular Member

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    plus do these cost include the weapon kits,maintainance and the spare kit???
     
  5. Atul

    Atul Founding Member

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    Dear Singh,

    you can get the prices in the link below :

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_MRCA_Competition#Lockheed_Martin_F-16IN

    & as for the colours, it was just to highlight the headers, for reader's convenience.
     
  6. ahmedsid

    ahmedsid Top Gun Senior Member

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    Wikipedia is not that trusty a source my friend. It maybe correct sometimes and at a later time be wide off the mark.
     
  7. A.V.

    A.V. New Member

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    I thin we must look at the mrca bid depending on the time frame, when we started we had the rafale and the f-18 leading as favourites but things have drastically changed now.lets see how things stand at this moment.


    the f-18:-
    fits well into the IAF conditions,proven plane would make a great combination with the iaf's SU30MKI nad LCA.price not an issue.good and proven weapon systems.

    problems:- FULL TOT big problem, aesa codes not to be supplied as of now a big minus.USA policy :- cannot be relied upon.
    new technology for the iaf a lot of infrastructure needed, lots of training needed too as iaf has never used much us technology.
    biggest problem:- no confirmation that the us will not supply weapons to pakistan in the future,infact the pakistani lobby in the us will get an oppurtunity to ask for more weapons from the us in the name of maintaining balance in the region.


    f-16IN :- good plane the best war proven weapon, good weapon system.price not a problem.opens the door for f-35 in the future.

    problems:- full TOT not possible.biggest issue is made in US. a very old platform most powers replacing their fighters. new infrastructure needed.spare parts will be a big issue in the future.pakistan already has a detailed look and experience.



    the rafale:- great choice,iafs experience with dassault is great.nice weapon systems.french are reliable suppliers.infrastructure already in place.

    problems:-a big minus will be the lack of meteor till 2015.iaf wanted the meteor but recent news claims the eu will not integrate the weapon before 2015.not combat proven.,lost all the bids till now.
    biggest problem:-the french only cares about money they are willing to suply anybody recently they are supplying the UAE with rafale and considering PAF pilots fly the UAE fighters they will get a good look at the + and -.
    problem with the engine even UAE wants an higher thrust engine.



    gripen:- good technology, nice weapons scope for much improvement in the future.

    problems:-dependent on the US, too similar to the LCA.no experience for the iaf,infrastructure needed, sweden not diplomatically flexible.ful TOT problem.




    eurofighter:- great plane, great weapons, good reports from the clients.


    problems:price a big issue.no meteor till 2015,full TOT might be a problem.
    E.U. diplomatically inflexible too many clients already supply might be delayed.



    mig-35:- iaf has great experience, fully TVC engine,price a big positive.well placed infrastructure in place already.history of indo-russia relations always a good and trusted supplier, full TOT no problem.


    problems:- russian history of delayed supplies.too many dependency on russia for spares.weapons package already will be available wit the PAKFA, so new weapons.





    now the argument starts:-

    rule out eurofighter just because of the price for every eurofighter you can get 2 migs or f-18.
    2 super hornets and mig-35 will get better of 1 eurofighter anyday. no additional goodies from E.U.


    next goes out gripen:- you cannot make sweden bend on any issue,they are very rigid. they will follow what the US will say, so if you want us tech better to get it directly from the US.no promise that they wont supply our enemies in the future.ssab is supplying pakistan with AWACS.



    goes the f-16IN:- Too old already.NEED TO REMEMBER THE INS SHIVALIK issue, the US is not at all dependable they will change any moment.TOT not possible then whats the point.will make india dependent on US a strict no no considering US recent change in policy towards south asia.they continue to arm our enemy with the best tech. nobody needs an f-16 block 52 to fight the taliban why are they supplying then.we need need the f-35 i the future as FGFA will be our 5th gen fighter so no need to keep doors open.



    now the top 3 lets see--


    the only thing that keeps the super hornet out is the TOT and US policy.if the us policy changes in the near future f-18 the best choice i think not now.

    the rafale would be the IAF,S best choice.but imagine the french will not shy away from supplying pakistan also in the future with better tech eg:-agosta and scorpene and PAF IS INTERESTED in the rafale but just cannot afford at this moment.engine issue needs to be solved too.also no meteor thats why i placed at at no 2 and not no 1.


    as things stand now MARCH 2009 the mIG-35 is the best choice.
    1.can make russia bend on other issues and get much more than just MRCA.
    how about a permanent seat in the SCO.
    2.great experience of the IAF no problems with the engines or cockpit smoke issue like the mig-29.
    3.indo-russia su-30MKI what a beast we can MKI mig israeli and french systems, ready to incorporate any weapons that india prefers.
    4.russia has never supplied pakistan with any major weapons unlike the french and the us we can use it to our advantage and get them to stop supplying the engines for jf-17 and j-10b the chinese engines are no good. a big diplomatic victory.
    5.capability of the mig-35 not in doubt full TOT with apar/AESA radar.price can be bargained and brought down.again any day 2 mig 35 will get 1 eurofighter or rafale.
    6- can fix a deadline for supplies if delayed price to be deducted or fined,will make supplies early.

    this is my choice as of now,i preferred the rafale before followed by super hornet but as things stand now the mig-35 WAS THE DARK HORSE no its proving itself.
    the next 6 months or a year might change and the choice might also change but this is he best choice now.

    1.mig-35
    2.rafale
    3.f-18
    4.f-16IN
    5.gripen
    6.eurofighter.
     
  8. thakur_ritesh

    thakur_ritesh Administrator Administrator

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    Invi that indeed was a very good analysis presented, and I agree with you on the top 3 contenders and I am sure these are the 3 jets which will see final price negotiation, though I will differ on a certain points.


    1.Every one has talked about the price of rafael, I think that would not be that big an issue when we are talking about 50% off set clause, the prises do get even out and this is an order which has a potential of making it to 200 odd eventually and if this deal were to go ahead then I am pretty certain that india is going to play real hard bargain when it comes to price negotiation.
    2.Meteor might happen in 2015, but the 1st m-mrca is not expected before 2013 to say the least, and who knows what all our babus have in mind, just yesterday I was reading an article where the author mentioned that the m-mrca contenders were certain that they would all reassemble in aero india 2011, so if that is the pace of decision making then even 2014 would look like being too optimistic.
    3.engine problems, yup there are but I am sure that by the time it comes to deliveries all would have been sorted out.
    4.india is looking to diversify its defence procurements as has been evident from the recent past, as also over dependence on just one supplier is not some thing the indians would want.
    5.the price escalation on the vikramaditya front has not gone down too well, no matter what ever might have been the reason, still all that has created a not so good image of the russians, who in some circles are also seen cozying upto the pakistanis, though that does not bother me much.
    6.india is looking at newer technologies and at a platform which can see “latest” upgrades over the life time of this mmrca till the time it serves the iaf.


    With the potential of this deal to escalate to something like 18(+)b usd as the size of the order inceases, I am not so sure that this would just be an iaf choice, they would be consulted but the final decision will be political.
    In case it is a political decision then it is certain americans will do all that they can to pull this one out, and in that case it will be a fight between the US and russia. Now if the commies form a major part of the next government and if the third front were to form the government, it is certain mig35 sails through, but if its a congress or a bjp government with no left front support then the balance tilts in favor of the americans.
    Now in case this is an apolitical decision, with iaf in complete control then americans be rest assured that they would be the fist ones to get kicked out and it would be a decision between rafael and mig35.


    Anyways the price that the iaf has been allowed to go shopping per piece is around 80m usd, but with the unprecedented hike in the defence budget which was all unplanned for till the mumbai attacks this figure might be revised upwards, but mind you the mentioned figure supposedly includes the weapons suit as well, if not the entire life cycle cost, which I highly doubt would be the case.


    My top 3 are:
    1.rafael
    2.mig35
    3.f18 e/f
     
  9. shiv

    shiv Regular Member

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    i think we should just shed all the usuall BS and just go with the RAFAEL....its cheaper,comparable to EF comes with Full TOT and all the software codes...with all this TOT even if in any case france does embargoes us,we can make these planes inhouse...

    plus the jump it will give us in all fields of plane manufacturing and its subsystems.......
     
  10. Payeng

    Payeng Daku Mongol Singh

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    lets evaluate speculative factors this time,

    InViNCiBlE I believe India in SCO is more of Russia's interest then that of India.

    Secondly Cockpit smoke whats that?

    In India the term 'indigenous' is given a lot of 'weightage'(and why not?) full ToT any locally manufacturing capabilities is a word near or considered Synonym to Indigenous.

    How about strategic allies such as India being the Industrial hub for manufacturing french hardware I can sense something like that as in the case of manufacturing Scorpene Subs.

    Another point is the scope of using French hardware in our Tejas may be offered if something like that happens though its just a speculation many goodies for the Tejas like the SPECTRA now goes SPECTTA also France have navalised Rafales etc etc, their technological know how would always help if face a problem navalising the Tejas.(a back up plan).

    From my POV France can always act as a back up if some thing goes wrong with the Russians, from both technologically and diplomatical POV, Their should be no issue for France to make strategical alliance with India than with Pakistan who lobby around US and PRC, moreover with infrastructure developed India is a more resourceful nation second only to PRC. Such prospects should draw India and France closer

    Moreover India needs to design it International polices, otherwise it may look like 'a bank with no security guards' and a nation with no international influence.

    Not selecting Rafale might not effect an Indo-Russian relation but selecting Mig's may result to lose of opportunities if offered, too much reliability solely towards Russia would result counter-productive for our own International policies.

    France sells weapons to both India and Pakistan because it don't have a deep close ties with these nations, once a strategic alliance is established this can be countered automatically. More over we need alliance to counter PRC's domination and US discriminating policies. And it seems a better way

    Lastly but not the least, uncle sam is always having a close watch to all such possibilities and regarding an opportunity found they would not hesitate to jumpin', After all they are good managers.:D

    These are all speculations or say conspiracy theories please don't quote on this however further analytical debates and discussions are encouraged.:)
     
  11. A.V.

    A.V. New Member

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    payeng very good post you are right about your point of views infact the rafale is my personal choice but my post only reflected the current situation.

    i only posted this to confirm the smoke issue,
    the IAF pilots will tell you that there is a big bug in the mig-29 it gets smoky inside the cockpit at times its an old problem not sure if it is corrected yet.
     
  12. LETHALFORCE

    LETHALFORCE Moderator Moderator

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    One more minor point picking Rafaele would be a neutral message to USA and Russia; in which India does not lean to much in one direction. Rafaele is my choice but Gripen can be the dark horse.
     
  13. screwterrorists

    screwterrorists Founding Member

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    The Mirage 2000-5 was never part of the MMRCA contest. France was willing to keep the construction lines open if India commited to it immediately. The government chose to issue a proposal and evaluate other proposals.


    Anyways, my choice Rafale. Impressive performance by Mirages was a factor.
    Like you said, for the French its all business. Thats kind of security is quite welcome in todays world. The amount of tech offered is almost unparalled. Someone said we could get 2 migs for one rafale. While that may be the case now, whats to say it will be the case when the migs start being built. [see aircraft carrier]. The price tag for the migs is almost too attractive. Even if the final price of the migs is such that you can obtain 3 migs for 2 rafales, i dont think its worth it. Recently mig 29s were grounded. I am not thoroughly impressed.

    :vehicle_plane:
     
  14. EnlightenedMonk

    EnlightenedMonk Member of The Month JULY 2009 Senior Member

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    I think that as far as value-for-money goes, the best jet around is the MiG-35. Seems to offer everything including thrust vectoring (which none of the other jets offer).

    But, off late, the number of delays by Russian contractors hasn't exactly gone down well in India. They're increasingly seeing Russia as unreliable. Especially, the "extortion" (IMO) on the Aircraft Carrier Deal. And now, the grounding of the MiG-29s. I agree that those jets are over 20 years old, but the reasons for this need to be investigated.

    The second best choice, I think would be that we go for the Eurofighter. I agree that as far as value-for-money is concerned it is possibly at the bottom of the list, but if I pay 100 million dollars for that jet, it ought to be one piece of equipment. It is possibly the most advanced 4.5 generation jet flying...

    And, the sweeteners are pretty decent as well. For example, we get to be partners in the Eurofighter programme, full ToT of almost everything should not be much of a problem. And, given the fact that Europe is hit hard by recession, I dare say that they would be willing to make even more concessions to us.

    If we buy the Rafael, we get the French on our side. But, if we buy the Eurofighter, we get almost the whole of Europe on our side (since many countries have a stake in the project). The only drawback is that deliveries might be slightly delayed since a lot of Eurofighters are in the production line.

    And, I suspect that as far as all other jets are also concerned, it will be a deal of sweeteners that will tilt the balance in or against their favour...
     
  15. LETHALFORCE

    LETHALFORCE Moderator Moderator

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    of all the deal eurofighter would be the most omplicated one. even the parts access in the future can become a problem.
     
  16. EnlightenedMonk

    EnlightenedMonk Member of The Month JULY 2009 Senior Member

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    It may be a logistical issue, but the parts and all will seriously suffer if and only if we get sanctions slapped on us by USA or the EU. Now, India hasn't done anything serious enough to warrant that and I don't think India will be stupid enough to try anything like that either.

    We are getting integrated with the global economy and I'm sure that we know that we can't be overtly seen to be very aggressive or anything of that sort as far as military is concerned.

    So, I don't see any reason for them to slap any sanctions on us. Plus, I dare say that the EU wants to do business with the likes of India and China and slapping sanctions would also hurt their own business prospects...
     
  17. Rage

    Rage DFI TEAM Stars and Ambassadors

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    Voted the Rafale: Although the french fighter costs an arm and a leg, the development of the RBE2 AESA radar positions it as the sole combat aircraft of its category equipped with active array for both its radar and electronic warfare suite, enabling a full 360-degree smart antenna array coverage. The Rafale is second only to the Hornet as a potent strike fighter and with the RB2 AESA radar (slated for serial induction on french AF and Navy Rafales by 2012) would make it the best suited to our requirements. At 9.5 tonnes, it also has a greater maximum payload than the Eurofighter (8t) or the Gripen (4t). Granted the Gripen (which seems to be the other favourite choice on this board) has a more advanced datalink, but Dassault is rumoured to be offering a Link16 Datalink-similar system for non-NATO qualified countries (as part of the new Low Volume Terminal initiative by AdlA in Europe). And the Rafale radar is also currently capable of interleaved scans with its ESA, in addition to being a longer range fighter with a greater combat radius (1852 km as opposed to 800 km) than the Gripen.


    As to the HUD, the Rafale's cockpit is inclined at between 29-34 degrees and elevated for better G-tolerance and visibility, and uses fewer MFD panels enabling greater user-friendliness. The sidestick feature on the Rafale as opposed to the centrestick on the F-18, Eurofighter and Gripen allows for reduced physiological strain during those crucial g-maneuvers (although the latter also has its advantages- primarily HOTAS controls).


    On external characteristics, the emphasis on a low RCS (good for those crucial dog-fights), three 2000l drop tanks, a high maximum external armaments weight, and rumours of the development of 'stealth cocoons' by Dassault to 'hide' loaded munitions are another factor to consider this a viable air superiority fighter.


    There were also reports in January 2008 of India having upgraded its Mirage 2000 fleet to Dash 9 standard. The compatibility of dual weapons' systems (MICA IR/EM, SCALP, Damocles, AASM, etc.) would make the Rafael an even more viable choice.


    And interestingly, Dassault, in conjunction with the Centre national d'études Spéciales (CNES), is also considering the possibility of equipping its Rafale's with a unique micro-satellite launching system: the 'Micro-launcher Airborne' (MLA) that will enable the aircraft to place small satellites (upto 150 lbs) into low-earth orbit (upto 800 kms). Given that we are a space-faring nation that regularly launches small and medium-size satellites, the airborne launcher provides an economical alternative to a rocket-based launcher-- an added non-combat incentive for choosing the Rafale.
     
  18. Rage

    Rage DFI TEAM Stars and Ambassadors

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    I have here images of the Rafale's RB2 AESA radar:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  19. LETHALFORCE

    LETHALFORCE Moderator Moderator

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    AESA offers and the different MRCA planes (cross posted from Radar thread)

    AESA developed for GRIPEN specifically for India MRCA

    http://frontierindia.net/saab-and-se...-for-gripen-ng

    F-16 supercruise and AESA for India

    http://www.air-attack.com/news/artic...apability.html

    Raytheon offering AESA for LCA

    http://www.indopia.in/India-usa-uk-n...orial/18/20/18

    Boeing offering AESA with F-18

    http://www.strategypage.com/militaryforums/6-51472.aspx

    LMT and Boeing offering AESA technology and EADS offering AESA for LCA with Eurofighter

    http://www.domain-b.com/companies/co...0226_aesa.html

    Rafele offering AESA tech transfer

    http://www.india-defence.com/reports-4069

    Russia offering joint AESA manufacturing for MIGS

    http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...facturers.html
     
  20. jackprince

    jackprince Turning into a frog Senior Member

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    I was in favour of F/A-18E/F when I first heard of MMRCA, but now I think Rafale would be best choice.

    Consider this with recent carrier fiasco, engine tot transfer for AJT fiasco, regarding Mig-29 upgrade problem etc. Russia cannot be considered a reliable bucket to store all our eggs. Already about 75% of our combat aircrafts are of Russian origin. After fall of USSR Russian industry hasn't been in strong feet yet. I read that our Phalcon was delayed because IL-78 platform was delivered late. We already are procuring about 10 Sqdrn. of Su-30MKI, which with further upgrade could very well become as good as Mig-35. Also, Mig-35 is same as Mig-29, with only a few avionics and radar changes, which could be achieved by upgrades which are inevitable.

    Also, USA, after the Shivalic engine fiasco no longer should be considered for anything as important as MMRCA. Who knows after Obama which admin. would come and start the delaying process all over again. We can't delay or should not sign those bunch of conditions US always put in defence deals. They even will monitor our lates VVIP 737s for some Golden Sentry thingy!!!!! Well, it is simply unacceptable. We are talking about India's defence whose arch rival is pet-dog of USA. Heck, PAF is getting the new F-16s as a gift, namely Defence aids. We don't want or asking for aids, but out-right purchasing them. Why should we let the US have any say what we do with our a/cs? F/A-18E/F Super Hornet is undoubtedly a gr8 a/c, and I would loved to have it in our arsenal - but it shouldn't if we don't want any 3rd party dictating any part of our defence policy.

    Gripen is a good a/c, but many of it's avionics, radar etc. etc. and even engine comes from USA, which I don't think they can convince USA to share with India, particularly since USA a/cs won't be selected. Also, Sweden has some kind of neutrality thing going on which might cause problem in long run. So, it is out too.

    Eurofighter simply is tooo expensive. About 80% more per unit cost than Rafale, 110% more than F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, 220% more than mig-25 !!!!!! Also, there was never clearly explained whether or not different tot's developed by different nations would be available to india.

    So, Rafale would be best choice, even though it is expensive to F/A-18, Mig-35 and Gripen. The french also offered 2 sqdrns. of Rafaleas a stop-gap till new a/cs come, which any other a/c can't give. Heck Mig-35 doesn't even have a production line set up. The MMRCA a/c will not be selected for another 8 months or so minimum, then it will take much more time to get the a/cs. These planes could very well act as stop-gap until the new one gets here. We already had M2K and IAF was so very impressed that there wouldn't have been a MMRCA if Rafale hadn't already closed the production line. It also gives the opportunity of strengthening a already present defence relationship with France, a country which is neither in Russian nor in USA pocket. Almost a similar stand in international affairs to India. Rafale also agreed to give complete ToT.

    Considering other options Rafale is the best of the lot IMO.

    (I got those cost info. from Wikipedia, not reliable enough, but in absence of a better source I had to rely on them hoping it actually comes close to real offer price.)
     

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