MRCA news and discussion /feb-june 2009

[Atul]

I agree with you. The chances of Gripen to Pakistan are more. They're cozying upto the Swedes recently. I believe they're going to get quite a few AWACS from them...

Yes Pakistan has procured SAAB 340 EriEye, and are eyeing the Gripen (but considering the Monetary fall out & the Current political scenario it seems like a distant dream).

The JAS-39 is a potent platform, a truly 4.5 Generation Jet, at a great price tag.

Currently the Swedes are more interested in supplying the INDIAN AIRFORCE the Jets with a complete TOT, since this order of 126 + Jets ( the number will surely increase once the Jet is finalised ). so the Swedes are more committed to sell them to INDIA.

Pakistan might just opt for say 20 to 40 of them ( remember FC-1 is still cheaper then JAS39 ) probably that is what is holding the Pakistanis back.:vehicle_plane::vehicle_plane:

I Firmly believe INDIA should opt for this Jet ( say atleast 100 no's ) balance 26 can either be (Mig35 / Rafale / SH ). Split this order that will help in getting the airforce the best jet at a great rate. ( read it some where the Gripen can Land on Roads... (swedish offcourse) if it can Land on INDIAN Roads it will Prove to be the Perfect Jet ever Built ):drink::drink:

 

[Atul]

 

[A.V.]

I agree with you. The chances of Gripen to Pakistan are more. They're cozying upto the Swedes recently. I believe they're going to get quite a few AWACS from them...

first of all we are not interested in what pakistan is acquiring because as clearly pointed out the mrca is independent of what other countries in our neighbourhood posses< speech of the air chief during aero india>

secondly pakistan has rejected the saab gripen a few yesrs ago pointing that the paf was unable to maintain such a complicated aircraft.
they do not have the technical capabilities that was their official statement so no need to consider gripen going to the paf.

thirdly the gripen NG the 5 then fighter is also not in pafs radar at this moment they want to work with china in the jxx program.

 

[EnlightenedMonk]

first of all we are not interested in what the pakistan is acquiring because as clearly pointed out the mrca is independent of what other countries in our neighbourhood posses< speech of the air chief during aero india>

secondly pakistan has regected the saab gripen a few yesrs ago pointing that the paf was unable to maintain such a complicated aircraft.
they do not have the technical capabilities that was their official statement so no need to consider gripen going to the paf.

thirdly the gripen NG the 5 then fighter is also not in pafs radar at this moment they want to work with china in the jxx program.

Thanks dude, didn't know about that....

 

[screwterrorists]

Yes Pakistan has procured SAAB 340 EriEye, and are eyeing the Gripen (but considering the Monetary fall out & the Current political scenario it seems like a distant dream).

The JAS-39 is a potent platform, a truly 4.5 Generation Jet, at a great price tag.

Currently the Swedes are more interested in supplying the INDIAN AIRFORCE the Jets with a complete TOT, since this order of 126 + Jets ( the number will surely increase once the Jet is finalised ). so the Swedes are more committed to sell them to INDIA.

Pakistan might just opt for say 20 to 40 of them ( remember FC-1 is still cheaper then JAS39 ) probably that is what is holding the Pakistanis back.:vehicle_plane::vehicle_plane:

I Firmly believe INDIA should opt for this Jet ( say atleast 100 no's ) balance 26 can either be (Mig35 / Rafale / SH ). Split this order that will help in getting the airforce the best jet at a great rate. ( read it some where the Gripen can Land on Roads... (swedish offcourse) if it can Land on INDIAN Roads it will Prove to be the Perfect Jet ever Built ):drink::drink:

A little side post for peoples general knowledge:

I saw how you mentioned the Gripen can land on roads. It reminded me of the US Interstate Highway System. It was championed by D. Eisenhower. It was an attempt to improve the defense of America. These highways would allow troop mobility, which they still do. Another aspect was that there were parts of the system where military aircrafts could land in times of emergency.

Although I doubt they still can with the types of aircraft and their power, I still thought it was interesting and just good general knowledge.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

AESA radars India’s MMRCA competition

http://theasiandefence.blogspot.com/search/label/India

AESA radars India’s MMRCA competition

Active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar technology is a requirement for India’s Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) competition, the biggest in the world. Consequently, a lot of maneuvering was apparent at the Aero India show last month, as fighter manufacturers worked to define their AESA answers and (in some cases) stall competitors.Boeing’s F/A-18E/F Super Hornet has the simplest answer. Raytheon’s APG-79 radar is standard on the Block 2 airplane, the current variant, and Boeing has not indicated it’s considering alternatives. This allows Boeing to wave a low-risk banner, offering, essentially, the aircraft flying with the U.S. Navy and on order for Australia.


Lockheed Martin had a choice of three radars. Raytheon’s Advanced Combat Radar (RACR) and Northrop Grumman’s Scalable Active Beam Radar (SABR) fit in an F-16, but Lockheed ultimately chose Northrop Grumman’s APG-80, in service in the United Arab Emirates’ F-16E/F. Two reasons are behind this, says Northrop Grumman: The proposed F-16IN for India is similar to the E/F and can accept the APG-80, which needs more power and cooling than RACR or SABR, and is lower risk. Northrop Grumman says no APG-80 antennas have had to be repaired, in normal use, since tests started over four years ago. “The antenna will outlast the airframe,” the company says. A few modules might fail over its lifetime, but they won’t affect performance enough to make it worth unsealing the radome and replacing them.Eurofighter holds a unique view of the AESA issue. Executives say the Selec Captor mechanically scanned array (MSA) beats any in-service AESA for the Typhoon’s mission. A clue to their thinking emerged at an Aero India seminar. Peter Gutsmiedl, senior vice president of engineering at EADS Military Air Systems, pointed out ways in which an AESA could be integrated into Typhoon, including small side arrays, an azimuth gimbal and the so-called “swashplate” radar, a canted antenna on a rotating mount. The goal is to overcome drawbacks of a fixed AESA: narrower field of view than an MSA and diminishing effective aperture and performance at the edges of that field.



Meanwhile, a spat between France and Sweden is developing. In 2007, Saab struck a deal with Thales to provide an AESA antenna for the Gripen Demo program, to be mated with the signal processor from the JAS 39C’s Saab PS-05 MSA radar. The Thales AESA replaced the passive-scan antenna of Rafale’s RBE2. But three things happened: Thales and Dassault were given the go-ahead to develop and produce the AESA for Rafale; Dassault has taken a large shareholding in Thales; and the Gripen NG has emerged—in India and Brazil—as a competitor to Rafale. Thales will honor the Gripen Demo contract but its AESA will not be available for a production NG. Sweden has talked about RACR, but would prefer the PS-05/A’s “back end” modules for ease of integration and to stay away from control issues associated with U.S. components. The answer may lie with Selex, which, first as Ferranti, then as GEC-Marconi and subsequently as BAE Systems, was Sweden’s partner on the original PS-05/A.


Selex, in accordance with the philosophy of John Roulston, leader of the Captor design team, has been working on simpler, lower-cost *AESAs—in fact, its first production contract was not for a fighter radar but a retrofit to U.S. Coast Guard HC-130s. Its Vixen series of forward-looking radars, banned by the U.S. from South Korea’s F/A-50, also received a launch order from U.S. Customs and Border Protection, with the 500-module Vixen 500 to be integrated on Cessna Citations.It’s not surprising, therefore, that Saab is in talks with Selex about using its AESA technology in the Gripen NG radar. The NG is not competing with the Typhoon except in India. It is also unlikely (as different as they are) that both aircraft would make an MMRCA short list.

 

[nitesh]

This is the main roadblock

US export curbs driving away business

 

[Atul]

Rafale

 

[Payeng]

IRST tests bolster Boeing's F/A-18E/F Super Hornet MMRCA bid

March 12, 2009, (Sawf News) - The Boeing has successfully completed a series of flight tests of the Infrared Search and Track (IRST) system on the F/A-18E/F Super Hornet.

The IRST, a critical requirement for India's MMRCA project for which the Super Hornet is a contender, is a passive, long-range sensor system that can detect and track several targets simultaneously and provide an effective air-to-air targeting capability, even when facing advanced threats equipped with radar-jamming technology.

Boeing, Lockheed Martin Missiles and Fire Control, and General Electric developed a prototype IRST sensor that was installed in the front section of a modified 480-gallon fuel tank. (See photo above).

The U.S. Navy conducted six flight tests at Naval Air Station Patuxent River, Md., and four at Naval Air Weapons Station China Lake, Calif.

Chris Wedewer, F/A-18E/F IRST program manager for Boeing, said the flight tests allow for low-risk entry into the development phase of the program. "Boeing and Lockheed Martin successfully demonstrated transfer alignment, long-range target detection, and the ability to operate in a fuel tank," Wedewer said. "Boeing also demonstrated integration of the IRST into the F/A-18E/F's multisource integration algorithms, allowing for the fusion of IRST tracking data with data from other sensors."

Wedewer added that the demonstration ensures effective and efficient progress as the IRST program moves into development and production.

IRST is part of the Navy's F/A-18E/F Block II Super Hornet Flight Plan, which is a series of planned capability enhancements that ensures the Super Hornet will continue to outdistance known and emerging threats over the coming decades.

Link

This news is from the VK thakur's site Moderators are requested it ractify if it is a copyright violation or not

 

[pyromaniac]

Which aircraft should win the MRCA competion?

So the choices are the The European consortium made Typhoon, the American f-18 Superhornet, Russia's MIG-35, America's F-16IN or the Swedish Gripen.

Please think before you type, this is a debate thread so there are bound to be people who do not support your views. Be courteous and let the debating begin. Please don't post news clips here unless they are relevant, this thread is only to debate which plane you think should win. All news dealing with MRCA should be posted in its dedicated thread.

Also, avoid one liners as much as possible as it breaks the flow of the thread

 

[Atul]

Which Jet should IAF go for in the MRCA ?

Post in your View's on the Jet & your opinions on which jet IAF should go for with Statistics.

Note : Just post in some relevant info & your opinion.

Remember to participate in the POLL.

Thanks & Regards.
Atul

 

[pyromaniac]

Here are the STATS


F-18 superhornet : $ 58 million

Performance

* Maximum speed: Mach 1.8+[11] (1,190 mph, 1,900 km/h) at 40,000 ft (12,190 m)
* Range: 1,275 nmi (2,346 km) clean plus two AIM-9s[11]
* Combat radius: 390 nmi (449 mi, 722 km) for interdiction mission[68]
* Ferry range: 1,800 nmi (2,070 mi, 3,330 km)
* Service ceiling: 50,000+ ft (15,000+ m)
* Wing loading: 92.8 lb/ft² (453 kg/m²)
* Thrust/weight: 0.93

Armament

* Guns: 1× 20 mm (0.787 in) M61 Vulcan nose mounted gatling gun, 578 rounds
* Hardpoints: 11 total: 2× wingtips, 6× under-wing, and 3× under-fuselage with a capacity of 17,750 lb (8,050 kg) external fuel and ordnance,

* Others:
o SUU-42A/A Flares/Infrared decoys dispenser pod and chaff pod or
o Electronic countermeasures (ECM) pod or
o AN/ASQ-228 ATFLIR Targeting pods or
o up to 3× 330 US gallon (1,200 L) Sargent Fletcher drop tanks for ferry flight or extended range/loitering time or
o 1× 330 US gal (1,200 L) tank and 4× 480 US gal (1,800 L) tanks for aerial refueling system (ARS).



MIG - 35 : $38.5 Million

Performance

* Maximum speed: Mach 2.4 (2,556 km/h, 1,587 mph) at altitude
* Range: 2,000 km (1,240 mi)
* Ferry range: 3,100 km (1,930 mi) with 3 external fuel tanks
* Service ceiling: 18,900 m (62,000 ft)
* Rate of climb: 330 m/s (65,000 ft/min)
* Thrust/weight: 1.1

Armament

* 1x 30 mm GSh-30-1 cannon with 250 rounds
* Nine weapon pylons:



EUROFIGHTER TYPHOON : $122.5 Million

Performance

* Maximum speed:
o At altitude: Mach 2+ (2,495 km/h, 1550 mph)
o At sea level: Mach 1.2
o Supercruise: Mach 1.1-1.5
* Range: 2,900 km (1,840 mi)
* Combat radius: 556 km (345 mi)
* Ferry range: 3,790 km (2,300 mi)
* Service ceiling: 19,812 m (65,000 ft)
* Rate of climb: >315 m/s[141][142] (62,000 ft/min)
* Wing loading: 311 kg/m² (63.7 lb/ft²)
* Thrust/weight: 1.16



JAS-39 GRIPEN : $ 47.5 million

Performance

* Maximum speed: Mach 2 (2,130 km/h, 1,320 mph)
* Combat radius: 800 km (500 mi, 432 nmi)
* Ferry range: 3,200 km (2,000 mi) with drop tanks
* Service ceiling: 15,240 m (50,000 ft)
* Wing loading: 336 kg/m² (68.8 lb/ft²)
* Thrust/weight: 0.97


Dassault Rafale : $ 67.2 Million

Performance

* Maximum speed:
o High altitude: Mach 2 (1,290 knots)
o Low altitude: 1,390 km/h, 750 knots
* Combat radius: 1,852+ km (1,000+ nmi) on penetration mission
* Service ceiling: 16,800 m (55,000 ft)
* Rate of climb: 304.8+ m/s (1,000+ ft/s)
* Wing loading: 326 kg/m² (83 1/3 lb/ft²)
* Thrust/weight: 1.13


F-16IN /Block 60 :


Mach 2.05 - Max speed
1,700 km - Combat Radius
15,239 m (49,997 ft) - Service ceiling
11 (3 'wet') - Number of hard points

 

[A M J]

JAS-39 GRIPEN - "The Independent Choice". :vehicle_plane:

 

[Atul]

6 Jets that have participated in the MRCA the widest choice any country in this world can be offered in case of Jets, can be broadly categorized as below :

In Case of Engines :

1) Single engine : Gripen & F-16

2) Twin Engine's : F-18 SH, Rafale, EF & Mig-35

In Case of Rate :

1) Below $ 50 Million : Mig-35, F-16, Gripen

2) Above $ 50 Million : EF, SH, Rafale.

In Case of Operatibility with Existing Infrastructure :

1) With Existing Infrastructure ( with some changes ) : Mig-35 & Rafale

2) With a Completely new Infrastructure : Gripen, F-16, SH, EF

In Case of Country wise Reputation :

1) Reliable supplier: Russia, France, Sweden,

2) Reliability Problems : Us, European Union ( the british had blocked seaking Helos sent for mid life refit the during Kargil Conflict)

In Case of War Operatibility :

1) War Tested : F-16, F-18, Rafale ( in Afghanistan )

2) Still to go in a War : Gripen, EF, Mig-35

Note : Remember for the 126 Multi-Role Combat Aircraft, The Defence Ministry has allocated Rs. 42,000 crore or (Approx. US$10.5 billion)for the purchase & Dollar Rate is not at all Stable.

 

[Payeng]

Hey 3 had voted for the Gripen can I know the reason behind?

My vote: Rafale:vehicle_plane:

 

[pyromaniac]

I could give one reason or another to either select each of these planes or reject them so yeah, this is what I think

Rafale -

PROS : - France has been a good supplier and more than that, it has been a good friend. It was one of the few countries in the world that did not punish or denounce Indian after the nuclear tests of 1998. France has promised full TOT and the software codes for the Radar too.

cons : - The rafale is technically a old plane, derived back in the cold war although significant advances have been made. As such the new Rafale's offer almost no similarity to the the first ones that were made.


EUROFIGHTER -

PROS: - Tremendous upsides as the aircraft is quite possibly the best 4.5 generation aircraft in the world today.

CONS: - Very high costs and is built by a consortium of European powers.

F -16 In

Solid platform but the F-16 in a sense is a cold war icon. Pakistan operates it and they are quite familiar with its limitations and handling. Also, the US is not the best military partner.

F-18 super hornet

This plane gives the typhoon a run for its money although it is not the fastest nor the most agile aircraft. However, the radar that is offered on it is ridiculously powerful. Boeing is also a good partner with India and has promised a limited TOT(still meets the demands set) along with production facilities in India.

Mig-35

It is Russian and so it is familiar but of late the Russians have not been the most punctual and have not honored their due dates.

Gripen

It has one thing above all other planes and that is it is being marketed as an independent plane meaning that its production will not be affected by politics. The data link feature on the Gripen will allow it to keep all the pilots in the loop. The Range of the aircraft is limited and it is the smallest aircraft of the bunch.


With that said, my money would be on either the Rafale or the Gripen. The f-16 and 18 are automatically out because America is not trust worthy and such a huge defense deal cannot be tied up with such a huge clout hanging over their head.
The euro fighter with its multiple orders in place and multiple participating countries would make it a logistical nightmare to get things done in a jiff. The Russians have not been especially punctual inn critical defense deals(AC) and has seriously made me question if Russia can continue to help us like it once did. Also, if we go for 126 MIG's we will be seriously hampering our national security.

So, that leaves the Gripen and the Rafale as the two "independent" choices. Both have their limitations but given the present scenario, they would be the best option.

 

[pyromaniac]

Hey 3 had voted for the Gripen can I know the reason behind?

My vote: Rafale:vehicle_plane:

The Gripen is a little newer than the Rafale and has a cool data link/feed structure. Read my above post Payeng. With that said, I think that the Rafale should win because it will require much less change in infrastructure and moreover the French have promised that they will give us the software codes for the Radar on the Rafale. This would enable us to reprogram the radar depending on the mission and not be dependent on foreign powers.

 

[Atul]

Hey 3 had voted for the Gripen can I know the reason behind?

My vote: Rafale:vehicle_plane:

Payeng,

The Budget for MRCA is allocated & the Cost of an Rafale can get the IAF not one but Two MIG-35.

& Remember an MIG-35 can be fitted with a TV engine....:vehicle_plane:

 

[Payeng]

Payeng,

The Budget for MRCA is allocated & the Cost of an Rafale can get the IAF not one but Two MIG-35.

& Remember an MIG-35 can be fitted with a TV engine....:vehicle_plane:

I am not comparing Mig-35 I want to know why it should be Gripen.

 

[pyromaniac]

I am not comparing Mig-35 I want to know why it should be Gripen.

once again,


The Gripen is a little newer than the Rafale and has a cool data link/feed structure. Read my above post Payeng. With that said, I think that the Rafale should win because it will require much less change in infrastructure and moreover the French have promised that they will give us the software codes for the Radar on the Rafale. This would enable us to reprogram the radar depending on the mission and not be dependent on foreign powers.