Kaveri Engine

[Chinmoy]

How many times should I tell you that 1st generation SCB is inferior to 2nd generation DSB? I have specifically stated this several times. That is why first generation SCB is rejected for Kaveri.

First enlighten me on how you came to the conclusion that 1st gen SCB are inferior to 2nd gen DSB? The 3rd gen DSB which uses Re is near comparable to 1st gen SCB on stress-rupture strength value. Now stop giving some nonsensical logic to support another nonsense.

You are beginning to annoy me now. First understand what others are saying. Rhenium is a very rare metal and very difficult to extract in good quantity. Having trace rhenium will serve no purpose as extraction has to be in several tens of tons a year to be useful in case of war. Do you know how much aircrafts were made every year in WW2? The manhour to make aircrafts then is comparable to now and hence similar number can be made if not more due to increase manpower. Where will you get the required rhenium for that? The trace rhenium will serve no purpose and can at best help in making 15-20 AMCA's engines (30-40 engines). So, have common sense before you open your loud mouth

No one said that Re is found in abundance. But you should know this fact that Rhenium is an byproduct of byproduct. It is derived from Copper-Sulphide ore and India produces 2% of World copper and is among the top 20 countries to import Copper ore. Now what is stopping us to go for its extraction? Rare earth material itself means that its is not in abundance and any quantity, whether its found in river, estuary, stream or even in gutter. It is not a question of how much we could derive, but the question should be how to derive. The very reason why India sucks in Metallurgy.

Firstly, the point being spoken was "raw material" for Su30 plane. As I said about engine, 88% was made in 2014. In October 2017, a ceremony was held to deliver 50th Al31FP engine from raw material. Can you explain why some one would hold ceremony for 50th engine? If the assembly itself was engine manufacture, how did the engine of late 2017 become 50th? Every year 12 Su30 is made which needs 24 engines. So, in slightly more than 2 years, 50 engines would be made. This again shows that the engine from raw material was made since FY16.

Also, about Russia not giving the alloy ToT, it was an opinion of Ajai Shukla. There might have been friction between Russia and UPA because of which Russia delayed it. But, the full ToT was part of the contract signed by India under Vajpayee. So, your outdated articles don't serve any point nor do your assumptions have any merit

Wow................ Even Maruti celebrates its 1000 car rolled out or 5000th customer and things like that after using Multijet engine of Fiat. So its not a big deal for HAL to celebrate 50th engine handover. If you have read the report you quoted, it mentioned that HAL celebrated handing over of 50th engine manufactured from Raw material phase. The first raw material phase engine was manufactured by HAL in 2011. So its not not started from 2016. Now try to understand what it does means.
Raw material for engine manufacturing comes from Russia and HAL just cuts and design those parts that too under strict supervision of Russian counterparts who is posted year round in HAL facility. Now you could have know how of how to make a bolt. How many thread you have to cut and whether it would be cut in RHS or LHS. But it doesn't mean that you would have the complete technology to design it inhouse. Manufacturing of a part is one thing, but the complete know how of the manufacturing in another thing. Metallurgy is one integral aspect of this.
Unless and untill you have covered every nook and corner of the same, you can't say that you have obtained complete ToT. We may have manufacturing know how of Al-31FP, but it doesn't mean Russians have given us ToT of Jet engine.
.

The construction documentation for the serial production of AL-31FP was handed to the Ufa-based UMPO, which fulfilled in 2000 and 2001 the obligations that arose from the contract with India in 1996 to supply 40 pieces of Su-30MKI. In 2000, a supplementary contract was signed about licensed production of 140 Su-30MKI in the factories of HAL in India. The contract was worth 3.3 billion USD. Saturn gave the Indian side the technical documentation for the engines,UMPO gave the plant in the city of Karaput all the necessary technical equipment to build engines.

http://www.leteckemotory.cz/motory/al-31/index.php?en

Now read what HAL has got. Just technical documentation for the engine. In a technical doc, they don't cover the manufacturing process. They just cover the specific design and parts involved in it and how to manufacture those specific parts. Its little more then screw driver job, but not complete ToT of JET ENGINE.

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

First enlighten me on how you came to the conclusion that 1st gen SCB are inferior to 2nd gen DSB? The 3rd gen DSB which uses Re is near comparable to 1st gen SCB on stress-rupture strength value. Now stop giving some nonsensical logic to support another nonsense.

I have read several research papers before making this conclusions. You tell me how did you conclude that 3rd generation DSB is same as 1st generation SCB? In engine what matters is centripetal and centrifugal force. There is no 3D force on the blades. Hence DS is suitable. You are making up bullshit day in and out without having any idea of what you are saying.

No one said that Re is found in abundance. But you should know this fact that Rhenium is an byproduct of byproduct. It is derived from Copper-Sulphide ore and India produces 2% of World copper and is among the top 20 countries to import Copper ore. Now what is stopping us to go for its extraction? Rare earth material itself means that its is not in abundance and any quantity, whether its found in river, estuary, stream or even in gutter. It is not a question of how much we could derive, but the question should be how to derive. The very reason why India sucks in Metallurgy.

India sucks in metallurgy according to retards like you. Copper Sulphide ore of all areas don't have abundant rhenium. Rhenium is associated with Molybdenum, not copper. Rhenium is obtained as a small fraction of this molybdenum. Molybdenum itself is found as a byproduct of other ores like copper, zinc etc. So, the overall rhenium available rhenium in India is too miniscule going by any standards. Again, I have told this several times that even if India manages to make 1ton of rhenium a year, it will still be insufficient for mass manufacturing of engines.

Also, read my above comment on DS and put it inside your thick skull. DS is a very good option and better than 1st gen SC alloy.

Wow................ Even Maruti celebrates its 1000 car rolled out or 5000th customer and things like that after using Multijet engine of Fiat. So its not a big deal for HAL to celebrate 50th engine handover. If you have read the report you quoted, it mentioned that HAL celebrated handing over of 50th engine manufactured from Raw material phase. The first raw material phase engine was manufactured by HAL in 2011. So its not not started from 2016. Now try to understand what it does means.

From where did you get that HAL made engines from raw material since 2011? Do you have delusions or mental problems? If HAL made engines in 2011, then by 2017, it should have made 200-300 engines. How did it become 50th?

Raw material for engine manufacturing comes from Russia and HAL just cuts and design those parts that too under strict supervision of Russian counterparts who is posted year round in HAL facility. Now you could have know how of how to make a bolt. How many thread you have to cut and whether it would be cut in RHS or LHS. But it doesn't mean that you would have the complete technology to design it inhouse. Manufacturing of a part is one thing, but the complete know how of the manufacturing in another thing. Metallurgy is one integral aspect of this.

Who told you that raw material is processed alloy? Raw material means simple items that are obtained from mines or after concentrating the ores into ingots, not processed materials. No one is saying that India designed Al31FP inhouse. India can make Al31FP inhouse with current design. There is no need to reinvent the whee everytime you want to use a cart. Same way, the Al31FP has been designed and the same is needed in every Su30 plane. Reinventing engines serve no purpose

Unless and untill you have covered every nook and corner of the same, you can't say that you have obtained complete ToT. We may have manufacturing know how of Al-31FP, but it doesn't mean Russians have given us ToT of Jet engine.
.

Russia gave ToT of AL31FP engine, not of jet engine. Stop speaking nonsense and stay on topic - of Al31FP. There is no point speaking of JET engine when I am only saying that India makes Al31FP. Even Russia will not be able to make the F16 engine like F100 all of a sudden.

http://www.leteckemotory.cz/motory/al-31/index.php?en

Now read what HAL has got. Just technical documentation for the engine. In a technical doc, they don't cover the manufacturing process. They just cover the specific design and parts involved in it and how to manufacture those specific parts. Its little more then screw driver job, but not complete ToT of JET ENGINE.

This is the year 2000-01. I am speaking of 2018. If you have mental problems because of which you can't understand the meaning of time, then there is nothing I can speak to you about

 

[Chinmoy]

I have read several research papers before making this conclusions. You tell me how did you conclude that 3rd generation DSB is same as 1st generation SCB? In engine what matters is centripetal and centrifugal force. There is no 3D force on the blades. Hence DS is suitable. You are making up bullshit day in and out without having any idea of what you are saying.


India sucks in metallurgy according to retards like you. Copper Sulphide ore of all areas don't have abundant rhenium. Rhenium is associated with Molybdenum, not copper. Rhenium is obtained as a small fraction of this molybdenum. Molybdenum itself is found as a byproduct of other ores like copper, zinc etc. So, the overall rhenium available rhenium in India is too miniscule going by any standards. Again, I have told this several times that even if India manages to make 1ton of rhenium a year, it will still be insufficient for mass manufacturing of engines.

Also, read my above comment on DS and put it inside your thick skull. DS is a very good option and better than 1st gen SC alloy.


From where did you get that HAL made engines from raw material since 2011? Do you have delusions or mental problems? If HAL made engines in 2011, then by 2017, it should have made 200-300 engines. How did it become 50th?


Who told you that raw material is processed alloy? Raw material means simple items that are obtained from mines or after concentrating the ores into ingots, not processed materials. No one is saying that India designed Al31FP inhouse. India can make Al31FP inhouse with current design. There is no need to reinvent the whee everytime you want to use a cart. Same way, the Al31FP has been designed and the same is needed in every Su30 plane. Reinventing engines serve no purpose


Russia gave ToT of AL31FP engine, not of jet engine. Stop speaking nonsense and stay on topic - of Al31FP. There is no point speaking of JET engine when I am only saying that India makes Al31FP. Even Russia will not be able to make the F16 engine like F100 all of a sudden.



This is the year 2000-01. I am speaking of 2018. If you have mental problems because of which you can't understand the meaning of time, then there is nothing I can speak to you about

You have done lot of study on DSB and SCB. I agree and I am not going to argue on this, and neither I am going to ask what these figs suggest.

And blades only face Centrifugal and centripetal force. But fluid force inside is non existent and so there is no 3D force on blade. Great.

India don't suck in metallurgy and I am delusional with mental issues. I agree and along with me people like these too suffers from such instability.

Air Marshal Anil Chopra, PVSM, AVSM, VM, VSM (Retd)

Because he too says so.

For India it is best to make initial engines through the joint-venture route and have an enforceable transfer of technology clause. India has to master metallurgy and manufacturing techniques, components and systems design, integration, and management as they are the most probable weak points holding back engine production. Mastering engine technologies has great growing civil aviation potential also. It will be a great leap for India if we get it right.

http://www.defstrat.com/india’s-fighter-engine-dream

And moreover this has been written on 2017 where he is talking about enforceable ToT even after Russians providing us complete ToT. Such a mentally retarded person.

Another person with mental issue is Dr Anantha Krishnan M and Rajaram Mohanty because they said this regarding HAL manufactured AL-31FP.

"The division has so far manufactured close to 280 engines (AL-31FP) for the Sukhois, while around 158 have been overhauled. The first engine from the raw material phase was rolled out during 2011-12. We are also fully equipped for the long testing (three months) of Sukhoi engines," says Rajaram.

https://www.oneindia.com/feature/ha...-division-with-gen-next-projects-1590744.html

Another set of delusional people are these who don't even know that raw materials are not alloys, but the minerals extracted from earth when speaking regarding manufacturing process.

Raw Materials
Strong, lightweight, corrosion-resistant, thermally stable components are essential to the viability of any aircraft design, and certain materials have been developed to provide these and other desirable traits. Titanium, first created in sufficiently pure form for commercial use during the 1950s, is utilized in the most critical engine components. While it is very difficult to shape, its extreme hardness renders it strong when subjected to intense heat. To improve its malleability titanium is often alloyed with other metals such as nickel and aluminum. All three metals are prized by the aerospace industry because of their relatively high strength/weight ratio.

The intake fan at the front of the engine must be extremely strong so that it doesn't fracture when large birds and other debris are sucked into its blades; it is thus made of a titanium alloy. The intermediate compressor is made from aluminum, while the high pressure section nearer the intense heat of the combustor is made of nickel and titanium alloys better able to withstand extreme temperatures. The combustion chamber is also made of nickel and titanium alloys, and the turbine blades, which must endure the most intense heat of the engine, consist of nickel-titanium-aluminum alloys. Often, both the combustion chamber and the turbine receive special ceramic coatings that better enable them to resist heat. The inner duct of the exhaust system is crafted from titanium, while the outer exhaust duct is made from composites—synthetic fibers held together with resins. Although fiberglass was used for years, it is now being supplanted by Kevlar, which is even lighter and stronger. The thrust reverser consists of titanium alloy.

http://www.madehow.com/Volume-1/Jet-Engine.html

From now onwards I am not going to read anywhere else when searching for Jet Engine tech and only going to consult you as you only seems to be the one person with absolute authority on the matter. All hail @Advaidhya Tiwari .

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

You have done lot of study on DSB and SCB. I agree and I am not going to argue on this, and neither I am going to ask what these figs suggest.

And blades only face Centrifugal and centripetal force. But fluid force inside is non existent and so there is no 3D force on blade. Great.

India don't suck in metallurgy and I am delusional with mental issues. I agree and along with me people like these too suffers from such instability.

Air Marshal Anil Chopra, PVSM, AVSM, VM, VSM (Retd)

Because he too says so.

I have mentioned 2nd generation DS, not first generation DS. Also, look at your own chart. The 1st gen SCb and 3rd gen SCB have difference of about 55 celsius only which is mind boggling to say the least. You must check your sources first.

And blades only face Centrifugal and centripetal force. But fluid force inside is non existent and so there is no 3D force on blade. Great.

India don't suck in metallurgy and I am delusional with mental issues. I agree and along with me people like these too suffers from such instability.

Air Marshal Anil Chopra, PVSM, AVSM, VM, VSM (Retd)

Because he too says so.

There are thousands of air marshalls. The most important point yo skimped is:

For India it is best to make initial engines through the joint-venture route and have an enforceable transfer of technology clause. India has to master metallurgy and manufacturing techniques, components and systems design, integration, and management as they are the most probable weak points holding back engine production. Mastering engine technologies has great growing civil aviation potential also. It will be a great leap for India if we get it right.

Even he is not sure. So much for your source!

And moreover this has been written on 2017 where he is talking about enforceable ToT even after Russians providing us complete ToT. Such a mentally retarded person.

Another person with mental issue is Dr Anantha Krishnan M and Rajaram Mohanty because they said this regarding HAL manufactured AL-31FP.

HAL used to make 88% of Al31FP since 2011 when 4th phase of ToT started. So, this is also correct. But in 2017 article which I gave, Suvarna Raju clearly told that everything is made in HAL for Al31FP. This is the difference. In 2011 it was not full manufacture but only partial. Since 2015 (FY2016), it was fully manufactured. The difference here is "fully".

Another set of delusional people are these who don't even know that raw materials are not alloys, but the minerals extracted from earth when speaking regarding manufacturing process.

So, now you use some arbitrary source like "MadeHow.com"? Good luck

 

[Chinmoy]

I have mentioned 2nd generation DS, not first generation DS. Also, look at your own chart. The 1st gen SCb and 3rd gen SCB have difference of about 55 celsius only which is mind boggling to say the least. You must check your sources first.


There are thousands of air marshalls. The most important point yo skimped is:

Even he is not sure. So much for your source!


HAL used to make 88% of Al31FP since 2011 when 4th phase of ToT started. So, this is also correct. But in 2017 article which I gave, Suvarna Raju clearly told that everything is made in HAL for Al31FP. This is the difference. In 2011 it was not full manufacture but only partial. Since 2015 (FY2016), it was fully manufactured. The difference here is "fully".


So, now you use some arbitrary source like "MadeHow.com"? Good luck

First of all I have checked the source. He is manufacturer of SCB. I would suggest you to better check your imagination and dreams.

Second, it would be much better for you to brush up English. Air Marshall is talking about the different aspect of engine manufacturing. Not probability of whether India have the tech or not.

Okkkk........ So as per you the recent hand over of engine to IAF is the 50th of full indian manufactured unit....... So cleaver of you. Perhaps you missed the point that it is written as from Raw Material phase in both reports and no where Mr Raju mentioned your arithmetic logic as far as I remember.

Lastly........ I would keep it in mind from now on that ITC does procure Bamboo to manufacture notebooks. Because it is the raw material used to manufacture paper. I would like to request you to kindly brush up your understanding on raw material point.

For each and every point I said, I did provided valid points and documents to support my argument. Do you have anything like that? If you are happy to discard every thing and live alone in a dream world, then I have no problem with that. But atleast don't mix up dream and reality in each and every thread.

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

First of all I have checked the source. He is manufacturer of SCB. I would suggest you to better check your imagination and dreams.

Second, it would be much better for you to brush up English. Air Marshall is talking about the different aspect of engine manufacturing. Not probability of whether India have the tech or not.

Okkkk........ So as per you the recent hand over of engine to IAF is the 50th of full indian manufactured unit....... So cleaver of you. Perhaps you missed the point that it is written as from Raw Material phase in both reports and no where Mr Raju mentioned your arithmetic logic as far as I remember.

Lastly........ I would keep it in mind from now on that ITC does procure Bamboo to manufacture notebooks. Because it is the raw material used to manufacture paper. I would like to request you to kindly brush up your understanding on raw material point.

For each and every point I said, I did provided valid points and documents to support my argument. Do you have anything like that? If you are happy to discard every thing and live alone in a dream world, then I have no problem with that. But atleast don't mix up dream and reality in each and every thread.

What is the date of your source? There is one more source uploaded by the ID @Kshithij which shows clearly about the TET of DS and SCB. Also, as I said, difference between 1st and 3rd gen SCB being just 55-60 celsius is simply bogus.

Does ITC manufacture the books or market them? Do you know the difference between the two?

I too have given valid points and have even given the source of the raw material phase from nuts and bolts to blades being made in India in that 2017 function. Also, if you have not noticed till now, I am @Kshithij with different account. So, I have even explained the SCB and DS. It is somewhere in the conversation with Johnny Baba whereby lot of research papers were shared by both of us. I can't just repeatedly search for the papers and give it to everyone. I am not taking this as my profession to do this.

 

[power_monger]

This arguments are going endless in a cyclic loop. Let's stop this argument.

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

DMS4 is a third generation single crystal nickel-base superalloy developed by the Defence Metallurgical Research Laboratory for turbine blade applications.
In the fully heat-treated condition, DMS4 offers more than 80 C metal temperature advantage over the first generation single crystal superalloy CMSX2 and about
8 C advantage over modern third generation alloys such as CMSX10.

I hpe this will clear any confusion.
Source :

 

[Enquirer]

Few days earlier a friend who has visited defence expo has told me that HAL is developing HTFE 40 with "40 dry and 60 wet thrust engine" which is the upgraded varient of HTFE 25. Any news about this?

Seems like you have the latest news.! What could possibly change in few days since you heard it?

 

[Chinmoy]

DMS4 is a third generation single crystal nickel-base superalloy developed by the Defence Metallurgical Research Laboratory for turbine blade applications.
In the fully heat-treated condition, DMS4 offers more than 80 C metal temperature advantage over the first generation single crystal superalloy CMSX2 and about
8 C advantage over modern third generation alloys such as CMSX10.

View attachment 29213
I hpe this will clear any confusion.
Source :

Ssshhhh.... Don't say loudly. There are people here as per whom India has gone for DSB instead of SCB because India doesn't have access to Rhenium. Now I wonder from where Rhenium came from in this case and how India would be able to sustain its manufacturing.

67Ni-2.4Cr-4Co-5.5W-6.5Re-9Ta-0.1Hf-0.3Nb-5.2Al

Oh and I too wonder that did Russia gave us this metallurgy under ToT or was it achieved by academic study.

 

[Chinmoy]

What is the date of your source? There is one more source uploaded by the ID @Kshithij which shows clearly about the TET of DS and SCB. Also, as I said, difference between 1st and 3rd gen SCB being just 55-60 celsius is simply bogus.

Does ITC manufacture the books or market them? Do you know the difference between the two?

I too have given valid points and have even given the source of the raw material phase from nuts and bolts to blades being made in India in that 2017 function. Also, if you have not noticed till now, I am @Kshithij with different account. So, I have even explained the SCB and DS. It is somewhere in the conversation with Johnny Baba whereby lot of research papers were shared by both of us. I can't just repeatedly search for the papers and give it to everyone. I am not taking this as my profession to do this.

My source are the studies done by likes of M.Gell, D.N. Duhl, D.K.Gupta, K.D.Sheffler on Superalloy Airfoils. And I am sure that they have not done these in dreams.

And please no need to reintroduce youself. We all have seen these illogical blabberings previously too.

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

Ssshhhh.... Don't say loudly. There are people here as per whom India has gone for DSB instead of SCB because India doesn't have access to Rhenium. Now I wonder from where Rhenium came from in this case and how India would be able to sustain its manufacturing.



Oh and I too wonder that did Russia gave us this metallurgy under ToT or was it achieved by academic study.

Contrary to popular perceptions DMRL and NML bothhave a very strong R&D programme in materials and metallurgical engineering. The paper I quoted was published way back in 2008. The 3 rd generation SCB tech is pretty mature and productionized by DMRL some of which are showcased in Defence expos and other exhibitions.
Moving on future directions I beleive they are now working on metal-matrix composites for Turbine blade application which will eventually replace Metal (Nickel) superalloys. They have previously worked on CMC composites but focus was on armour application: standard stuff like SiC, B4C etc. But now focus has shifted.

 

[power_monger]

Contrary to popular perceptions DMRL and NML bothhave a very strong R&D programme in materials and metallurgical engineering. The paper I quoted was published way back in 2008. The 3 rd generation SCB tech is pretty mature and productionized by DMRL some of which are showcased in Defence expos and other exhibitions.
Moving on future directions I beleive they are now working on metal-matrix composites for Turbine blade application which will eventually replace Metal (Nickel) superalloys. They have previously worked on CMC composites but focus was on armour application: standard stuff like SiC, B4C etc. But now focus has shifted.

We have a very educated member called Jay in brf who keeps arguing that Kaveri engine core is in good shape. He had presented lot of data to back this up.

So it could be possible that Kaveri engine core is perfectly alright and it tech surrounding it which needs to be improvised to see desired thrust.

However the safran help in non hot section is coming at right time . Hopefully we see a LCA flying tejjas soon.(waiting for long long time )

 

[joy_tilak]

And while you guys dick fight over a struggling kaveri, chinese are flying indigenous TVC on their indigenous fighter jets.

http://idrw.org/j-10b-tvc-wows-zhuhai-crowds-with-surprise-performance/

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

And while you guys dick fight over a struggling kaveri, chinese are flying indigenous TVC on their indigenous fighter jets.

http://idrw.org/j-10b-tvc-wows-zhuhai-crowds-with-surprise-performance/

Even Su30 has TVC engine AL31FP which is made in India. India can add TVC to any engine it wants. But TVC for a single engine fighter increases the weight significantly which is unwarranted. Around 500-600kg weight is added to the TVC alone

 

[Shekhar Singh]

TVC is good for air shows. Actually plane looses altitude and energy due to high drag and becomes a sitting duck, while using TVC.

 

[joy_tilak]

If that was true, Russia wouldnt be having TVC in most of its frontline jets and America in its F22. I dont think India has the TVC technology. It can only produce the engines with some of its core parts imported from Russia. TVC is an add on.
Russia has offered to install TVC in joint development engines made by India & other countries.

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

If that was true, Russia wouldnt be having TVC in most of its frontline jets and America in its F22. I dont think India has the TVC technology. It can only produce the engines with some of its core parts imported from Russia. TVC is an add on.
Russia has offered to install TVC in joint development engines made by India & other countries.

Don't spread fake news everywhere. First read about Al31FP engines completely manufactured in HAL. This includes TVC and the Al31F engine. The P in Al31FP stands for TVC nozzle

 

[cyclops]

And while you guys dick fight over a struggling kaveri, chinese are flying indigenous TVC on their indigenous fighter jets.

http://idrw.org/j-10b-tvc-wows-zhuhai-crowds-with-surprise-performance/

Kaveri is no ordinary turbofan.
It is a varable cyle engine with full FADEC has low bpr and is flat rated.
How many chinese turbofans are VCEs?

 

[joy_tilak]

VCEs or not, they have their jet engines fitted into actual inducted fighter jets and flying. Our Kaveri has not even flown yet in a fighter. No matter what tech we are making, its as good as a stone unless it does what it was built for. They have fifth gen jets where as we are still struggling with a light weight trainer like fighter of 4th gen which already has many impkrted components.