Kaveri Engine

[Willy2]

are Bhai.. I know how it worked for every new project they need to consult people in west. Look at that Indian neutrino Observatory. It's biggest in the world but no people to work there. Reason, no skilled people in India in particle physics. In nuclear I would say Ind has got best minds but then they have restricted themselves to generating power. This is why people go to west for studies. Otherwise they could have done it in India itself. It's not just about money but also about facility and recognition. Rather developing at home they bring all the test beds in India and they test.
That wind tunnel in IIT Kanpur is rusting and has not been upgraded past 15 years. Go and see the floor if you ever get a chance to visit. It's not even dusted properly. And then they conduct experiments there.

If wests honest help we could have reach further. We have a anti-national gaddar govt for 10 years ,these factor along with mentality of indian poisoned by communist/liberal/left + colonist left the marks , but against all odds we are still fighting .As u said and point out many issues , our engineer and scientist working even in those poor facilities and delivering stuff , they are't dumb...consulting from those who have achieve it don't make u inferior , We have a so charismatic govt now that those who once leave home are now interested to return .
And for few month as we can see OFB/DRDO start delivering in unexpected rate breaking the stereotype normal indian have towards them , I am really positive about our future .

 

[no smoking]

How much time and money is needed - There is no way to know for sure - is there?

If my memory is right, just couple of month ago, American military decided to spend 260 million dollars on testing of the new generation engine. 260 million dollars for testing only. That tells us how costly an engine development is.

The Kaveri project did not receive this much money because of inherent tisks. The French are called in to reduce risks and reduce development time, specially since Kaveri's last minute problems of screech and flutter have known solutions.

Don't you think you contradict yourselves? The whole Kaveri project didn't receive that much money but suddenly people just find 1 billion dollars to hire French to fix the problems Indian scientists already know how to fix? Either your scientists don't know where the problems are and how to fix them, or Kaveri got plenty budget to get foreign help.

 

[TPFscopes]

You have to take into account conversation values and Indian salaries. Also, this much money was spent because their was a clear project plan with clear goals and minimum risk. Open ended RnD is risky and hence only surplus budget is allocated. I am all up for higher RnD budgets though.

If my memory is right, just couple of month ago, American military decided to spend 260 million dollars on testing of the new generation engine. 260 million dollars for testing only. That tells us how costly an engine development is.



Don't you think you contradict yourselves? The whole Kaveri project didn't receive that much money but suddenly people just find 1 billion dollars to hire French to fix the problems Indian scientists already know how to fix? Either your scientists don't know where the problems are and how to fix them, or Kaveri got plenty budget to get foreign help.

Please move to http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/threads/kaveri-engine.5097/ for further discussion..

By the way, GTRE planned 59.6 million USD as development cost for Kaveri-GTX but they already invested more than 10 times of planned, before Safran attachment.

 

[Sancho]

@Kshithij

The journey of the Kaveri Snecma/Safran development:

Kaveri engine programme delinked from the Tejas
Sept, 2008

...Dual path

Given the scenario of a long delayed Kaveri engine jeopardising the LCA programme, the top echelons of the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) have decided to pursue a dual path. The delinking now allows the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), the designers of the Tejas, to go ahead in issuing a request for proposal (RFP) for a more powerful engine that can produce a thrust of around 95 kilo Newtons (kN).

The thrust that the Air Force has projected will be needed if the overweight (by 1.5 tonnes) Tejas is to be powered to meet ASRs.

The RFP is likely to be sent out to two global engine houses - the European consortium Eurojet Turbo for their EJ200 and General Electric for the GE F414.

French assistance

The delinking though is not the end of the road for the Kaveri. A committee headed by Air Vice Marshal M. Matheswaran, has been asked by Air Headquarters to scrutinise an offer made by the French engine house Snecma to co-develop and co-produce an engine along with the GTRE.

Snecma will have to convince the committee that they can indeed co-develop with the GTRE, an engine with a thrust of around 95 kilo kN. Crucial aspects like the transfer of technology to GTRE, number of engines to be produced and costs involved will be studied by the committee.

http://www.thehindu.com/todays-pape...e-delinked-from-the-Tejas/article15311521.ece

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IAF not keen on French offer for Kaveri engine
December 2008

...A committee set up by the IAF has indicated to Air Headquarters that the Snecma offer will not meet the Air Force’s operational requirements, nor help India acquire the technological know-how to indigenously develop a combat engine.

Constituted in September under the chairmanship of Air Vice Marshal M. Matheswaran, to look at the Snecma offer, the committee had as its members representatives from the designers of the Tejas - the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), the manufacturers of the Tejas - the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), the Centre for Military Airworthiness and Certification, and IAF officers posted at ADA, the National Flight Test Centre and the Aircraft Systems and Testing Establishment.

Not in India’s interest

Highly placed sources told The Hindu that the committee felt that the Snecma offer was not in the IAF and India’s interest primarily because the French were offering a fully developed engine accepting which would “compromise and even kill the efforts, however meagre” that Indian defence laboratories had made towards developing the indigenous Kaveri engine.

The offer would also not help India get a co-designed, co-developed engine but rather an engine under a licence production arrangement, and at a great financial cost...

http://www.thehindu.com/todays-pape...h-offer-for-Kaveri-engine/article15368364.ece

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IAF rejects French offer on engine for Tejas
June, 2009

It’s final: the indigenous Kaveri aero engine, under development at the Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE) for 20 years with the specific objective of powering the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas, will now not fulfil that task...

...The IAF’s rejection of the French offer comes after a committee, headed by Air Vice-Marshal M. Matheswaran, pointed out that the Snecma offer did not meet the Air Force’s performance (air staff) requirements, did not give the GTRE the core engine technology it was looking for, and did not help eliminate deficiencies in the Kaveri’s design.

“Assimilate” technology

Both Snecma and the GTRE contested the IAF’s stand, saying that the relevant design technology would, in stages, be assimilated to the Indian defence laboratories.

According to Snecma’s chairman and chief executive officer Philippe Petitcolin, his company could pass on the design and manufacturing technology to Indian entities as soon as it “could assimilate it.”...

http://www.thehindu.com/todays-pape...offer-on-engine-for-Tejas/article16587219.ece

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DRDO to abandon indigenous fighter jet engine Kaveri project
Jan 11, 2015

...Refusing to divulge the finer details, Dr K Tamilmani, Director-General (Aero), DRDO, confirmed to OneIndia that the Kaveri project will be scrapped. "Yes. These are part of the bold stand being taken by DRDO. Whereever we have found bottlenecks for long time, with no realistic solutions, it's better to move on. It is an honest stand we are taking," Tamilmani said.

When asked whether the decision was a fall out of the recent remarks made by Prime Minister Narendra Modi asking DRDO to come out of the delay trap, the senior official refused to make a direct comment.

https://www.oneindia.com/amphtml/be...roject-gtre-gets-revival-package-1565505.html

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France offers EUR 1 billion to revive India's combat jet engine project
July, 2016

...The proposal is to use offset credits that would come from the planned Rafale fighter jet deal to revive the indigenous jet engine project...

https://m.economictimes.com/news/de...t-engine-project/amp_articleshow/53036894.cms

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Chairman, Defence Research and Development Organisation ( DRDO) and. Secretary Department of Defence R&D, Dr S. Christopher. Interview
Feb, 2017

...DRDO has not directly taken any offsets so far. Presently, Rafale has an offset clause, and DRDO has been asked to fill it up. We are specifically talking of the Kaveri engine’s last mile problem. We are running the five Kaveri engines that we have. These were even flown as a part of the experimental test-bed in Russia. We know they are good engines. The problem with the engine is that when used for higher power, it makes a noise. We don’t know the effect it can have on the performance. To resolve this issue, DRDO is planning to rope in Snecma (as part of the Rafale offset). The project has already entered the first phase. Snecma will study the engine and work on its modifications, certify and fit it on the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas. We should be able to fly one of the LCA’s with Kaveri engine at least after two years...

http://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/English/Public/dpi/articles/secretary-interview-27022017.pdf

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Manohar Parrikar confirms French help for revival of Indian Kaveri engine
Feb 14, 2017

...Parrikar said that French firm Safran - which has developed the M88 engines for the Rafale - will be using technology from its engines that go on the Rafale to revive the Indian project...

https://m.economictimes.com/default_pwa.cms?article=57145730

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Safran is in talks with DRDO to co-develop combat aircraft engine
May, 2017

Speaking to select media on May 16, after an extended discussion at the DRDO Bhawan, Chief Executive Officer (CEO) Safran Aircraft Engine, Olivier Andries said that Safran has proposed development of a new combat engine to the DRDO as part of its offset obligation on the Rafale fighter contract...

...Hence, Andries was in India to take forward the conversation on combat aircraft engine. As DRDO is reluctant to let go of its baby, the Kaveri engine, which remains grounded even after two decades, Andries said that Safran is open to the idea of capitalising on the development of Kaveri, though he did not specify what capitalising would mean.

Will Safran work on Kaveri or use it as base for a new engine type?

“We are discussing all possibilities,” said Andries, adding in the same breath that, “Another starting point for development of a new engine could be the M-88 which powers Rafale fighter aircraft.” Apparently, from Safran’s perspective, this would be the preferred option instead of getting into Kaveri.

http://www.forceindia.net.in/FullThrottle_June2017.aspx


Notes

- The joint development was initially rejected, because of doubts on thrust of the engine and the industrial interests of India
- Kaveri engine was scrapped in 2015, before the Rafale deal. While DRDO was asked in 2016, during the offset negotiations, in which fields they would like to see offsets being diverted
- Safran (and not the Indian government, or IAF) offered to revive the engine, as part of the Rafale offsets and as confirmed by their CEO and DM Parrikar, wants to use the M88 core technology as the base, as planned in the initial offer as well

 

[Kshithij]

@Kshithij

The journey of the Kaveri Snecma/Safran development:


http://www.thehindu.com/todays-pape...e-delinked-from-the-Tejas/article15311521.ece

=>


http://www.thehindu.com/todays-pape...h-offer-for-Kaveri-engine/article15368364.ece

=>


http://www.thehindu.com/todays-pape...offer-on-engine-for-Tejas/article16587219.ece

=>


https://www.oneindia.com/amphtml/be...roject-gtre-gets-revival-package-1565505.html

=>


https://m.economictimes.com/news/de...t-engine-project/amp_articleshow/53036894.cms

=>


http://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/English/Public/dpi/articles/secretary-interview-27022017.pdf

=>


https://m.economictimes.com/default_pwa.cms?article=57145730

=>


http://www.forceindia.net.in/FullThrottle_June2017.aspx


Notes

- The joint development was initially rejected, because of doubts on thrust of the engine and the industrial interests of India
- Kaveri engine was scrapped in 2015, before the Rafale deal. While DRDO was asked in 2016, during the offset negotiations, in which fields they would like to see offsets being diverted
- Safran (and not the Indian government, or IAF) offered to revive the engine, as part of the Rafale offsets and as confirmed by their CEO and DM Parrikar, wants to use the M88 core technology as the base, as planned in the initial offer as well

Kaveri engine was never scrapped.

'Snecma will study the engine and work on its modifications, certify and fit it on the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas. We should be able to fly one of the LCA’s with Kaveri engine at least after two years...'


“We are discussing all possibilities,” said Andries, adding in the same breath that, “Another starting point for development of a new engine could be the M-88 which powers Rafale fighter aircraft.”

These are the points you failed to note. If it was scrapped, how can all possibilities be tried?

Scrapping a project is a big thing. If that was the case, GTRE must have been dissolved. Also, how is Kaveri engine being made with French help if it is scrapped? The meaning of scrapping is that it is no longer being pursued. Also note that this is a oneindia exclusive. Bo one else reported it. What reputation does oneindia have?

Here is 2012 article - another media hitjob

http://*****************/threads/india-scraps-domestic-jet-engine-plan.18939/

CONCLUSIONS -
Kaveri was never scrapped. Kaveri is being developed with French help by both means - consultancy as well as Snecma core. UPA deliberately delayed it by not giving Test Bed to test engine while fine tuning. It is extremely important to fine tune engine development by repeated testing.

 

[Sancho]

Kaveri engine was never scrapped.

Read the article, confirmed by the DRDO Chief himself!

If it was scrapped, how can all possibilities be tried?

All possibilities means, if they can go on at the point where DRDO stopped, or if they go on with the Safran plan with the M88 core.
Btw there was an interview with the DRDO Chief from August, where he confirms that the M88 core will be used, but that around 60% of the engine will be made in India. But I only saw quotes of that article, since I'm not a subscriber of forceindia.net, that's why I didn't added it, but Parrikar and the Safran CEO already confirmed the plans with the foreign core anyway.

 

[Kshithij]

Read the article, confirmed by the DRDO Chief himself!


All possibilities means, if they can go on at the point where DRDO stopped, or if they go on with the Safran plan with the M88 core.
Btw there was an interview with the DRDO Chief from August, where he confirms that the M88 core will be used, but that around 60% of the engine will be made in India. But I only saw quotes of that article, since I'm not a subscriber of forceindia.net, that's why I didn't added it, but Parrikar and the Safran CEO already confirmed the plans with the foreign core anyway.

That is from August 2010. But that did not go through. India has been negotiating since 2008 with France.

So, as of 2015-6, GTRE had been continuing to develop Kaveri. UPA caused problems by cutting funds, getting the chief arrested etc.

As of now, there is last mile problems which needs to be rectified. As stated, Snecma will give consultation, test bed and certification

 

[lcafanboy]

Can someone confirm this.

Reports are coming Kaveri Engine is up again and now running Smoothly without any screeching problem.

And also whether this is completely indigenous effort by DRDO GTRE combine or Snecma rectified it with M-88 core...............

Things are looking positive and they are trying to ready Kaveri for LCA by 2019.

 

[Steven Rogers]

Can someone confirm this.

Reports are coming Kaveri Engine is up again and now running Smoothly without any screeching problem.

And also whether this is completely indigenous effort by DRDO GTRE combine or Snecma rectified it with M-88 core...............

Things are looking positive and they are trying to ready Kaveri for LCA by 2019.

Source....

Sent from my Aqua Ace II using Tapatalk

 

[darshan978]

Can someone confirm this.

Reports are coming Kaveri Engine is up again and now running Smoothly without any screeching problem.

And also whether this is completely indigenous effort by DRDO GTRE combine or Snecma rectified it with M-88 core...............

Things are looking positive and they are trying to ready Kaveri for LCA by 2019.

Bharat rakshak?...............

 

[patriots]

Bharat rakshak?...............

ya bharat rakshak ..

but dont know whether its running with foreign help or

 

[patriots]

Bharat rakshak?...............

ya bharat rakshak ..

but dont know whether its running with foreign help or

hope for good news

 

[darshan978]

Most probably with safran's help....

 

[Steven Rogers]

Most probably with safran's help....

Did the investment flew in the project or a guess.

Sent from my Aqua Ace II using Tapatalk

 

[Steven Rogers]

ya bharat rakshak ..

but dont know whether its running with foreign help or

hope for good news

Didn't find anything such on BRF

Sent from my Aqua Ace II using Tapatalk

 

[Kshithij]

ya bharat rakshak ..

but dont know whether its running with foreign help or

France had said that 75% of Kaveri is complete. This meant that Kaveri, by itself was flyable engine. I guess, it was lack of altitude testing bed due to Congress policies that the scientists weren't able to fine tune the engine. Fine tuning requires repeated testing on a daily/weekly basis. Sending it once or twice to in a year to Russia is never sufficient

 

[sjmaverick]

It seems that @lcafanboy himself is asking for all members for any confirmation on the rumor he shared...

 

[cyclops]

France had said that 75% of Kaveri is complete. This meant that Kaveri, by itself was flyable engine. I guess, it was lack of altitude testing bed due to Congress policies that the scientists weren't able to fine tune the engine. Fine tuning requires repeated testing on a daily/weekly basis. Sending it once or twice to in a year to Russia is never sufficient

75% complete.
Shouldn't it be more?
Source please.

 

[Kshithij]

75% complete.
Shouldn't it be more?
Source please.

Before taking french help, it was 75% complete, in 2015-16, which meant that the core was fine. Last mile issues of fine tuning was left. France agreed for consultancy only after this check was done.

 

[darshan978]

Did the investment flew in the project or a guess.

Sent from my Aqua Ace II using Tapatalk

Who knows!!! we are hearing this safran's help from year 2015-16 they must have help just a guess....