INS Vikramaditya (Adm Gorshkov) aircraft carrier

Discussion in 'Indian Navy' started by nitesh, Feb 20, 2009.

  1. Chinmoy

    Chinmoy Senior Member Senior Member

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    Its not just about cannisterization. You have to also look at number of missiles you could deploy on one. Due to its difference in maneuverability in respect to any land based system, you need larger number of defensive missiles on a ship. For that weight of a missile matters.
     
  2. Kunal Biswas

    Kunal Biswas Member of the Year 2011 Moderator

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    Its presently a Land system and can engage air and ground targets as well ..

     
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  3. Sancho

    Sancho Senior Member Senior Member

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    Of course it doesn't have assured victory, but you also can't deny the credible advantages of flight performance, EW, a low RCS and European A2A weaponry.
    The higher cost therefore comes frim more capability and performance.
     
  4. charlie

    charlie Regular Member

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    what have you been smoking these days ???

    for every french system, there are multiple american system that a customer can choose from, American systems are much more robust compared to European.

    IDECM AN/ALQ-214 4/5 is currently being deployed
    https://www.harris.com/sites/default/files/an-alq-214-idecm-data-sheet.pdf

    The growler jamming system is one of the best in the world fu*king thing use to jam it's own communication till INCANS came into picture

    The future is going to be about software defined adaptive EW rather then single mission pre programmed once, and US companies are way ahead in research.

    If you are ready to spend a fortune, clients can get much better systems with far more sensor and jamming capablity then anything european systems has to offer.
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2018
  5. Sancho

    Sancho Senior Member Senior Member

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    Lol, that's why Boeing is offering Israeli MAWS and LWR on their road map options, for customers that want to upgrade to state of the art capability.
     
  6. charlie

    charlie Regular Member

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    purely a business decision, nothing to do with capablity.
     
  7. AMCA

    AMCA Senior Member Senior Member

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  8. Hindustani78

    Hindustani78 Senior Member Senior Member

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    The Chief of Naval Staff, Admiral Sunil Lanba explaining take-off procedure of MiG 29K carrier-borne fighter aircraft to the Union Minister for Defence, Smt. Nirmala Sitharaman while witnessing the operational manoeuvres of the Western Fleet ships, conducted by the Indian Navy, on January 08, 2018.
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    The Union Minister for Defence, Smt. Nirmala Sitharaman having a look through the telescopic sight from the Bridge of INS Vikramaditya while witnessing the operational manoeuvres of the Western Fleet ships, conducted by the Indian Navy, on January 08, 2018.
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    The Union Minister for Defence, Smt. Nirmala Sitharaman being briefed about Naval Operations onboard Flagship INS Vikramaditya while witnessing the operational manoeuvres of the Western Fleet ships, conducted by the Indian Navy, on January 08, 2018. The Chief of Naval Staff, Admiral Sunil Lanba is also seen.
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    The Union Minister for Defence, Smt. Nirmala Sitharaman being briefed about Naval Operations onboard Flagship INS Vikramaditya while witnessing the operational manoeuvres of the Western Fleet ships, conducted by the Indian Navy, on January 08, 2018. The Chief of Naval Staff, Admiral Sunil Lanba is also seen.
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    The Union Minister for Defence, Smt. Nirmala Sitharaman meeting the Heads of Departments (HoDs) of Flagship INS Vikramaditya while witnessing the operational manoeuvres of the Western Fleet ships, conducted by the Indian Navy, on January 08, 2018.
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    The Union Minister for Defence, Smt. Nirmala Sitharaman witnessing the various exercises on-board INS Vikramaditya, during the operational manoeuvres of the Western Fleet ships, conducted by the Indian Navy, on January 08, 2018. The Chief of Naval Staff, Admiral Sunil Lanba is also seen.
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    The Union Minister for Defence, Smt. Nirmala Sitharaman on board MiG 29K, during the operational manoeuvres of the Western Fleet ships, conducted by the Indian Navy, on January 09, 2018.
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  9. Hindustani78

    Hindustani78 Senior Member Senior Member

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    The Union Minister for Defence, Smt. Nirmala Sitharaman along with the Chief of Naval Staff, Admiral Sunil Lanba, the Flag Officer Commanding-in-Chief (FOC-in-C) Western Naval Command (WNC), Vice Admiral Girish Luthra, the Flag Officer Commanding-in-Chief (FOC-in-C) Western Fleet (WF), Rear Admiral R.B. Pandit and CO Vikramaditya Capt. Ajay Kochhar on board INS Vikramaditya, during the operational manoeuvres of the Western Fleet ships, conducted by the Indian Navy, on January 09, 2018.
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    The Union Minister for Defence, Smt. Nirmala Sitharaman addressing the Western Fleet on board INS Vikramaditya, during the operational manoeuvres of the Western Fleet ships, conducted by the Indian Navy, on January 09, 2018.
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  10. Hindustani78

    Hindustani78 Senior Member Senior Member

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    The Union Minister for Defence, Smt. Nirmala Sitharaman along with the Chief of Naval Staff, Admiral Sunil Lanba, the Flag Officer Commanding-in-Chief (FOC-in-C) Western Naval Command (WNC), Vice Admiral Girish Luthra, the Flag Officer Commanding-in-Chief (FOC-in-C) Western Fleet (WF), Rear Admiral R.B. Pandit and CO Vikramaditya Capt. Ajay Kochhar on board INS Vikramaditya, during the operational manoeuvres of the Western Fleet ships, conducted by the Indian Navy, on January 09, 2018.
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    The Union Minister for Defence, Smt. Nirmala Sitharaman addressing the Western Fleet on board INS Vikramaditya, during the operational manoeuvres of the Western Fleet ships, conducted by the Indian Navy, on January 09, 2018.
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  11. bhramos

    bhramos Elite Member Elite Member

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    The Russian experts qualitatively serve the aircraft carrier "Vikramaditya" - the Indian admiral.

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    After-sales support for the carrier ship Vikramaditya, supplied by Russia to India, is being carried out qualitatively, the aircraft carrier has been actively operating for five years, said the head of the logistics department of the Navy Vice Admiral Pabbi Gurjdeh Singh.

    "Over the past five years, we have been very active in exploiting the aircraft carrier. He perfectly performs all his combat missions and often goes to sea. And this very clearly speaks about the quality of Sevmash's works. I am pleased to note that the plant fulfills its obligations with high quality, "said the military commander in Severodvinsk during a meeting with the general director of Sevmash, Mikhail Budnychenko. "Today, as part of the Navy (Indian Navy), India is a flagship," said the Vice Admiral, quoted by the Sevmash press service.

    At the meeting, the prospects of bilateral cooperation on post-warranty support for the aircraft carrier Vikramaditya were discussed, the statement said, which was received by Interfax-AVN on Friday. The press service reminded: the terms of the contract and the intergovernmental agreement determined that the Russian side (Rosoboronexport and Sevmash) should provide full support in the operation of the aircraft carrier during the entire service life, which can be 40 years. Sevmash carried out a deep modernization of the ship and handed it over to the Indian Navy in 2013.

    Now Rosoboronexport and the company are implementing a comprehensive after-sales support system: from rendering technical assistance to the Indian Navy in maintaining the ship's equipment in good condition until the shore infrastructure is built and the aircraft carrier is repaired. As M.Budnichenko noted earlier, in 2017 the enterprise carried out works in the field of military-technical cooperation in full, "the press release reads.
    The aircraft carrier Vikramaditya (the former heavy aircraft-carrying cruiser Admiral Gorshkov of Soviet construction) was handed over to the Indian Navy on November 16, 2013 at Sevmash, where the ship was being repaired and modernized. The contract for the modernization of the aircraft carrier was concluded with India in 2004.

    http://www.militarynews.ru/story.asp?rid=1&nid=472729
     
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  12. bhramos

    bhramos Elite Member Elite Member

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    "UKROBORONPROM" IS READY TO SERVICE AVIANOSETS OF THE INDIA VIKRAMADITYA Navy

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    April 12, 2018 The General Director of the recreation center "Ukroboronprom" within the framework of DefExpo-2018 met with the Commander of the Navy of the Republic of India, Admiral Sunil Lanboi. Pavel Bukin noted the interest of Ukraine in the joint production of ship and coastal radar systems, sea buoys, the supply of spare parts for Indian ships and submarines. The Commander of the Indian Navy expressed support and interest in cooperation with Ukrainian enterprises on a number of existing projects.

    The parties discussed the further participation of Ukrainian defense enterprises in the modernization and development of the Indian Navy. In particular, they talked about the continuation of supplies and the establishment of joint production of gas turbine engines, maintenance by Ukrainian specialists of the aircraft carrier Vikramaditya, built in time by shipbuilders of Nikolaev shipyard.

    http://ukroboronprom.com.ua/uk/medi...uvaty-avianosets-vms-indiyi-vikramaditya.html
     
  13. Spectre

    Spectre Regular Member

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    Most future wars in the naval domain will be short and intense. The carrier may seem obsolete and extremely vulnerable in such an engagement, however, this might not be completely true.The carrier, being a huge vessel is vulnerable to detection and attack by the enemy, however, employing it with tactfully may reduce its vulnerability and help the Indian Navy overcome the odds and win the fightOur current aircraft carrier (INS Vikramaditya) is a small STOBAR carrier with a modest air wing.

    It is widely agreed that in order best utilise an asset, one has to take note of its negatives and offset them through effective employment. These disadvantages can stem from the shortcomings of , either from the carrier itself, it's embarked air wing, the supporting vessels of the CBG etc. The disadvantages of Vikramaditya include
    Lp
    P P l0p1.Low range and payload capacity of the mig 29k
    2.Low availability of the mig 29k
    3.Low on station time of awac helo 4.Insufficient ASW capacity
    5.Insufficient defensive anti air capability ( 6.The combined anti air weapons of the CBG aren't really sufficient for protecting the carrier and other ships against a massed missile attack)

    Carriers are effective diplomatic tools that coerce and influence hostile and friendly states during peace time however, during war however, the story is quite different. The carrier turns into a 'dartboard', a target of utmost importance. The enemy dedicates considerable assets for the purpose of the detection and destruction of the carrier. The Indian navy will need to keep the carrier away from the enemy force during the initial days after enemy contact to help the carrier survive (without expending weaponry in its own defence) and be usable for the strike role. During the initial days after enemy contact, initiative to engage the enemy should be taken by traditional surface and subsurface combatants . Once the enemy is encountered, huge number of missiles will be expended by both sides (for both, protection against enemy fire and offence against the enemy). Once most of the VLS magazines are expended, both sides will need to retreat(to reload, repair, consolidate etc.) while keeping track of each other using (MPA, drones etc). The STOBAR carrier is best employed at this time, when the enemy is at his weakest. The carrier will have to rush into theatre at high speed, launch a majority of its aircraft ( in order to muster a substantial salvo) and sprint away from the theatre due to the threat of lurking subs . A majority of the aircraft will have to be launched simultaneously in order for a strike to be effective) since this will compensate for the relatively small load carrying capacity of the Mig 29k. In order for the simultaneous launch to occur, a large number of Mig's will need to be kept in an state of readiness for an extended period of time (ie. The aircraft, although ready to fly, will have to be grounded on the ship in order to be available for take off at short notice without undergoing maintenance) thus increasing number of aircraft available for the strike simultaneously. This will reduce the number available for CAP, thus reducing CAP sortie rate. This further increasing the importance of remaining undetected .

    The entry of the carrier into the threat environment will have to be time well, since a premature entry (when the enemy has not expended a majority of its VLS missiles) will probably lead to combat ineffectivenessA similar employment of the STOBAR carrier, especially the Vikramaditya can be compared to using a single shot shotgun. The gun will have to be reloaded (the air wing will have to be brought up to readiness and this will take up time due to the maintenance problem of the Mig 29k.) one the gun is loaded, it will pack a mean punchTo conclude, although engagements in future naval wars will depend upon surface to surface weaponry during the initial days , the carrier, when used effectively, may prove to be the decisive blow that knocks the enemy out. Although, the Indian Navy may be able to use a carrier effectively in its present condition , a substantial number of improvements will improve carrier employability (in any situation) drastically

    I have listed the improvements that, in my opinion are definitely needed to improve out carrier operations in particular and naval capabilities in general.

    Improvements; To the carrier:

    1.Improved operability under EMCON
    2.Independent torpedo defense
    (RBU 6000?)
    3.LPI datalinks
    4.Rapid battle damage repair (enables flight deck ops in a damaged condition)
    5.Improved range and endurance (ship and aviation fuel, spares etc) this will reduce need to visit port or be replenished by oilers that may be tailed by submarines.
    6.High sprint and cruise speed (to get out of tough situations)


    To the CBG and other combatants.

    1.More VLS per ship (to win the initial missile exchange)
    2.In theatre VLS reload capacity (with minimum support)
    3.Organic ISR aircraft (ideally unmanned) 4.Stand off air delivered torpedo (ASROC?) 5.LPI datalinks6.Improved ability to work under EMCON (to remain undetected)


    To the carrier air wing:

    1.Full on-board aircraft maintenance
    2.Larger stock of aircraft spares
    3.Organic airborne refuelingaircraft
    ( although a fixed wing solution cannot be applied on a STOBAR carrier, a tilt rotor solution may be possible)
    4. Fighter aircraft with longer range and higher payload capacity (again, this is a radical change) (rafale?, naval AMCA?)
    5.Larger number of New, ASW helicopters 6.Organic ASW aircraft (fixed wing/tilt rotor) 7.Standoff PGM's ( these need to be light enough for the aircraft to carry multiple pieces without compromising on aircraft range. The PGM's must have sufficient stand off range on the cheap) I must admit that I'm not a fan of smaller carriers. The main reason is their inability to carry high endurance fixed wing ASW, AWAC, refuelling aircraft and the limitations imposed by the ski jump on payload capacity

    Some of the improvements suggested above are not possible to a STOBAR carrier.

    I also understand problem of opportunity cost, however, as @mendonsa has mentioned, during peace, the AC is an invaluable diplomatic tool which brings rich dividends in the form of access to natural resources. This will remain unchanged in the near future (Its effectiveness will be reduced with to the proliferation of coastal defence systems and SAMs).

    Although aircraft carriers are important, they should not be procured at the cost of key strike elements. These strike elements are of utmost importance for the protection of and for the exploitation of the carrier. Every carrier needs a safe bubble in order to deploy its aircraft without being molested by the enemy, this protective bubble is maintained by the joint action of the surface and subsurface combatants that compose the CBG, in conjunction with the Cap from the AC. Thus, without these capital ships, the carrier, especially one with limited capabilities like the Vikramaditya is vulnerable.

    Guys, this is my first comprehensive post on DFI, please do highlight any mistakes /misconceptions also, do express any alternate points of view.


    Also, please do share any particulars about how the IN uses its carriers during peace and intends to use them in times of war.
     
  14. AUSTERLITZ

    AUSTERLITZ Regular Member

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    We need to drop plans for the 3rd nuclear carrier and focus on 2 good ones.
    We don't have funds for it.If the airforce can barely scrape enough to buy 36 rafales there's no way navy can afford a large number of ships,subs,a whole carrier plus a mini air force of 50 plus rafales/5th gen for itself in the 3rd carrier.Its impractical.
    Focus on submarines,they are the future -the age of carriers is uncertain.I hope atleast now 48 barak 8 have been retrofitted onto vikramaditya as was promised.
     
  15. Chinmoy

    Chinmoy Senior Member Senior Member

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    IN had already said that they are not interested in Nuke Carrier as of now. Its only three conventional carrier for us.

    And moreover carriers are to project power and area dominance. Nuke Subs can't replace them. They are more of offensive weapon whereas Carriers are defensive as well as offensive. Neither could replace each other.
     
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  16. Illusive

    Illusive Senior Member Senior Member

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    With s400 purchase, it'd be difficult to get the EMC from US anyway, I guess india will have to come up with its own. So I think navy should go for another vikrant class cv.
     
  17. AUSTERLITZ

    AUSTERLITZ Regular Member

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    I don't think navy can afford 3 carrier air wings.If 3rd wing is to be rafale/5th gen navy cant afford it.
     
  18. mahesh

    mahesh Regular Member

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    How about the maintainance of chinese subs as they have many and are they too facing paceout and replacement issue

    Sent from my Micromax Q380 using Tapatalk
     
  19. Chinmoy

    Chinmoy Senior Member Senior Member

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    IN has been looking forward for upgraded Mig29 along with Rafales as a possibility. Moreover 3 AC are not a matter of choice, but compulsion for India. One of these three would always be in a retrofitting stage and the other two in active patrolling on two front.
     
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  20. undeadmyrmidon

    undeadmyrmidon Regular Member

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    Go back to PDF please. I know you very well as a false flagger with same username there.

    We need 3 A/C for the same reason that China needs 5. Power projection. Naval Air assets can do far more damage than anti ship measures which was shown repeatedly during WW2.
     
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